Kevin Myers-Good Journalist or 'Person of Questionalbe Origin'?

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Agreed...to a point. She doesn't take the kids on holiday, so therefore the money she gets from the state to rear her kids is being used for her own gratrification. Wrongful use of welfare imo.

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She could spend all her welfare money on smack and it would still be none of you business.

As for Myers, words can't express my contempt for the man. I don't buy the Irish Times for lots of reasons and Myers is just one of them.

To people who say that he brought up an important topic for debate I'd say have a look at the real problems. Surely poverty, lack of opportunities and education are slighly more important than s few people ripping of the welfare.

Put it this way - how many fraudulent welfare claims would you need to add up to equal one Ray Burke? Quite a few I'd imagine.

KOH

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

She could spend all her welfare money on smack and it would still be none of you business.

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When welfare money is abused it becomes every tax payers business, because its tax payers money that pays welfare.So, I would consider it my business.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Are you Kevin Myers cousin?No....
On what basis are you making that outrageous claim?I personally know someone living in Rathfarnham who has 3 kids by different fathers, and uses every penny of her childrens allowance to make repayments to the credit union for loans for holidays to Spain twice a year.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

who screws the welfare system into paying for cars and holidays.

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Hmmm, since when is the "State" the local Credit Union?

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Do you have facts and figures to prove it, or are you just making more wild accusations?See above...this is not a wild accusation, its a sad fact.

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So your claim that "screwing the welfare system into paying for cars and holidays" is nothing but a wild accusation with NO BASIS in fact. You haven't produced a single FACT to back up that accusation.

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Show me ONE instance anywhere in this country where Social Welfare paid for a car or a holiday for ANYONE?I think I just have.

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No you haven't, you simply made a wild accusation. Or do not understand the difference between getting a SW payment and a loan from a Credit Union?

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That claim is based on nothing but ignorance and predujice.....:rolleyes:That claim is based upon a real person, who I know, who uses welfare for her own benefits.

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So this person uses benefit for her own benefit....She should be hung, drawn and quartered forthwith.....:rolleyes:

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That is her own business I guess, but don't come all moralistic with me preaching about ignorance and prejudice when I am stating fact. I would also like to say that I believe there is several more out there like her.

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If you are going to try engage in a debate, learn the difference between a FACT and an accusation that has to be withdrawn in your very next post.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

I don't agree with Kevin Myers use of the English language towards the children, but it would be a prejudiced ignoramus who believes there aren't people out there who bleed the system in this way.

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There are plenty of "prejudiced ignoramus"s out there. You can spot them quite easily by the wild and ridiculous claims they make about people that they percieve should be grateful for the scraps they throw them.
People on SW going on holidays....:eek: DISGUSTING!
People on SW driving cars.....:eek: :eek: SHOCKING!

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Agreed...to a point. She doesn't take the kids on holiday, so therefore the money she gets from the state to rear her kids is being used for her own gratrification. Wrongful use of welfare imo.

I agree that childrens allowance isn't specific to single parents, but it is an allowance for children....for basics and essentials...not so mammy can swan off the Spain twice a year.

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Children's allowance is a completely different issue form single parent allowance - its not means tested. Many of my colleagues used their children's allowance to invest in government savings schemes. If I relied on children's allowance to rear my kids I'd be up for neglect :(


**Sorry this is a bit out of date - I had to do some work mid message**

My whole point in all of this is that I do believe that there are people out there who obtain social welfare benefit and do not use it for the purposes for which it was given. I accept your points on childrens allowance and stand corrected, however I do know of someone who has deliberately gotten pregnant, with no intention of letting the father be a part of the childs upbringing, or even aware of its existence, knowing that the state are going to look after her and her needs. She uses this benefit money to pay back loans for holidays, and clothes for herself, not for the child. I know this because I have seen welfare reports from officers who are concerned for the childrens safety and are currently considering taking them into care.The child suffers as a result of this, and I believe the system should be overhauled to make people like her realise the potential consequences of her actions. If she was aware that she would have no state benefits for the child, then I doubt very much she'd put herself in the position in the first place, or consider termination.This is not speculation, this is how she perceives things, and it is quite disturbing. Thats why I feel that something should be done about it. :mad: :eek:

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Originally Posted by patsh

Hmmm, since when is the "State" the local Credit Union?

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The 'state' repays the credit union for her as this is where the single mothers and childrens allowance benefits go directly.

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Originally Posted by patsh

So your claim that "screwing the welfare system into paying for cars and holidays" is nothing but a wild accusation with NO BASIS in fact. You haven't produced a single FACT to back up that accusation.

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Its FACT enough for me when I am aware of a situation where this is happening. No wild accusations.

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Originally Posted by patsh

Or do not understand the difference between getting a SW payment and a loan from a Credit Union?.

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So, you agree with the fact that she uses every cent of her benefit to repay the Credit Union for loans for things from which her children don't gain. They are deprived vital items because of this womans greed.

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Originally Posted by patsh

So this person uses benefit for her own benefit....She should be hung, drawn and quartered forthwith.....:rolleyes:

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Nice to see you condone child abuse and fraud.

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Originally Posted by patsh

If you are going to try engage in a debate, learn the difference between a FACT and an accusation.

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I strongly urge you to do the same.

So do you propose that state benefits be cut, because you can come up with one example where you believe a girl is behaving in a certain way?

Did this girl tell you that she deliberately got pregnant to get €168.00 a week from the state, so that she could use it to pay back loans?

Getting a job on an assembly line would pay 2 1/2 that wage, and she wouldn't have had to go through a pregnancy or the hassle of minding a child, and she would be in a much better financial position to pay off her loans.

If this girl seriously thought that this was a better option for her, then you cannot use her as an example, because you are talking about someone who is either a complete moron or is mentally disabled.

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Originally Posted by patsh

So do you propose that state benefits be cut, because you can come up with one example where you believe a girl is behaving in a certain way?

Did this girl tell you that she deliberately got pregnant to get €168.00 a week from the state, so that she could use it to pay back loans?

Getting a job on an assembly line would pay 2 1/2 that wage, and she wouldn't have had to go through a pregnancy or the hassle of minding a child, and she would be in a much better financial position to pay off her loans.

If this girl seriously thought that this was a better option for her, then you cannot use her as an example, because you are talking about someone who is either a complete moron or is mentally disabled.

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I never said state benefits should be cut, but I do believe they should be more stringently assessed and monitored, and perhaps paid out in more practical ways than cash to parents.

One of my best friends works as a social worker for the EHB, and this girl is one of his cases. The fact that she is a complete moron, or mentally disabled does not prevent me using her as an example, because she is an example. Not everybody is of the same mindset as you. This girl also has a part-time job, being paid under the counter in a pub. Don't tell me she's a moron, or mentally disabled. She's a scheming, manipulative user, who knows exactly what she's doing.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

He doesn't seem to be exactly the soul of discretion...

Anyone can cite individual cases. Hard cases do not make for good law.

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What's the story Conor? You're being the epitome of a level-headed, rational human being on this thread. All this on the back of Minister Brennan's new found humanity re. single parent families. :eek:

Is this the new FF socialism I've heard so much about? ;)

KOH

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Not everybody is of the same mindset as you.

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And what mindset would that be, exactly?

He never told you names, but told you of the situation?
Why doesn't he have her arrested and charged with fraud?

You seem hung up on this one case, must VERYBODY be judged on your hearsay?

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Originally Posted by patsh

And what mindset would that be, exactly?

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Obviously the type that encourages welfare fraud, and neglect of children.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Obviously the type that encourages welfare fraud, and neglect of children.

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Gee, you are some man. You can figure out that I'm a criminal child abuser from my posts, eh?

Now, I can make a fairly certain guess to the type of person you are, and intelligent debate certainly is not part of that type.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

If she was aware that she would have no state benefits for the child, then I doubt very much she'd put herself in the position in the first place, or consider termination.

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And how would you deal with an accidental pregnancy where the mother was genuinely unable to provide? Take the child into care? Force a termination? Leave them to die?

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

And how would you deal with an accidental pregnancy where the mother was genuinely unable to provide? Take the child into care? Force a termination? Leave them to die?

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I think it would be the best for the Church to set up "homes" for these women, make them work and give their baby up for adoption. At least we wouldn't have to see the selfish wenches and their bástard children would be brought up in a proper home.

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Originally Posted by patsh

And what mindset would that be, exactly?

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A tad delusionist if you think these people don't exist in Irish society today.
And I suppose there is the mindset fair play if they can get away with it but I can't say its mine.

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Originally Posted by patsh

must VERYBODY be judged on your hearsay?

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Of course not, surely he can cite specific cases without saying everyones up to no good.

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Originally Posted by razor

A tad delusionist if you think these people don't exist in Irish society today.
And I suppose there is the mindset fair play if they can get away with it but I can't say its mine.


Of course not, surely he can cite specific cases without saying everyones up to no good.

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There is a lot of delusion around, but it belongs to the paranoics that believe that young girls get pregnant so they can get a few euro a week. It simply doesn't happen on the scale that some would believe. Anybody can point to an odd case here and there, but even then, it's only their impression about what is happening, they don't know the actual facts.
Just becuase a few people can cite one case, it doesn't mean it's rampant. Indeed, what facts do exist about Ireland, show that the opposite is happening. Births to teenager's have been dropping since the late 80's so that the total number of these births is under 3% now.
"Single" parents include in their statistics, women who are widows, divorced, those living with their partners but not married and 15% are single fathers.

So when somebody like Myers and Walsh come along and pretend that they are simply starting a debate, the first thing they might do is get what figures they can, and then come up with something sensible to say. Of course its very easy to just spew some bile around the place, because the people who want to believe that bullsh*t are numerous.

Ther are people who take advantage of whatever benefits they can get, but that happens in every walk of life. For instance, very, very rich people get away with paying no tax, but enjoy all the infrastructure services paid for by taxpayers. Why is Walsh not calling for an investigation and a debate about that? Land speculators are making enormous sums of money, which must be paid for by housebuyers, but why doesn't Myers rant about these people? (e.g a group of doctors, lawyers and others made €53 MILLION profit in 4 years on a piece of land in Dublin recently. This will add €200,000 to the asking price of every house)

These are 2 social issues that cost the state far more in term of money and social cohesion than the small number of women who may possibly think that getting pregnant will put them on the "gravy train". Why is there no ranting columns about this in the Times or lectures in UCC?

It is a MYTH that girls and young women are getting pregnant becuase it will mean the good life for them. Before anyone starts ranting on about the one case they have HEARD of, they should sit down, have a little think about what exactly it is they are claiming, do the maths, and have some serious reflection on this topic. There are always ways to improve every system, but lets have a sensible debate about this, not base everything on what you might have heard or been shown by someone else, or start calling people names because you can't come up with anything sensible to say yourself.

Pat, All I was saying is that this does exist, I didn't say it was the biggest problem that exists in Ireland today, its far from it. But its the topic Myers chose to bring up, He could have done better by attacking the more pressing issues this viciously but he didn't.
There are people riding the State from all walks of life and every single one of them p*ss me off but if the government won't do anything about it....

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Originally Posted by patsh

It is a MYTH that girls and young women are getting pregnant becuase it will mean the good life for them. Before anyone starts ranting on about the one case they have HEARD of, they should sit down, have a little think about what exactly it is they are claiming, do the maths, and have some serious reflection on this topic. There are always ways to improve every system, but lets have a sensible debate about this, not base everything on what you might have heard or been shown by someone else, or start calling people names because you can't come up with anything sensible to say yourself.

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Please stop taking the moral high ground with me, I am only stating my opinions here about a scenario told to me by one of my best friends, who I believe and trust totally. It is not something I 'HEARD' of as you put it, but something I was told by someone in authority who I believe, so if you want to imply that I am a liar, just have the balls to come out with it and call it to me, rather than glossing over it with your inane rhetoric.

On the maths side of it, if someone puts the majority of €168 a week into the credit union, you can borrow up to €4000 every three months, once you keep up the payments. In the case I am referring to this pays for holidays and fancy clothes, not nappies, school uniforms, schoolbooks,or other 'vitals' needed. Don't tell me thats not neglect of both the child and the welfare money she's getting to look after that child. Great economics, and no law breaker, but disgustingly immoral.

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Originally Posted by razor

Pat, All I was saying is that this does exist, I didn't say it was the biggest problem that exists in Ireland today, its far from it. But its the topic Myers chose to bring up, He could have done better by attacking the more pressing issues this viciously but he didn't.
There are people riding the State from all walks of life and every single one of them p*ss me off but if the government won't do anything about it....

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And I agree with you. It does exist, and I'm only poiniting out that getting reform in this area has made made even more difficult by the antics of Walsh and Myers. So I guess we really agree, just went the long way round to seeing that....;)