Nobody suggested having no relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
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Nobody suggested having no relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
Of the reports on the League in recent times I think this one is the most impressive. Leaving aside the proposal to change format, which I'd see as a side issue here, it's highlighting the importance of the league to the national team is absolutely crucial and this report does that very well. We all know the national team is the only part of Irish football that consistently makes money- so helping everyone, especially at the FAI understand our league is important to that (because the reliance on English football to produce our top players isn't sustainable) makes 100% sense.
My comment was more leant towards the Premier Division ,that I should have clarified.I agree completely that the First Division doesn't punish teams who are brutal, hopefully this could be rectified at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
I think this is the key alright. Previous reports - Gabay, Conroy, Genesis - have never actually asked what the point of the league is. This report is suggesting - as you say - that the point is to generate players for the national team, and shows just how far behind we are compared to pretty much every other league in Europe of a someway comparable size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
The logical conclusion of that is that it makes sense for the FAI to invest in the league - and it's worrying that Gabay almost mocked clubs who were looking for more money. I wonder had he seen this report?
I think only then can you look at league format. What do you want to do with the league? I think you have to try and grow it - bring in new teams and try develop them to the stage where they can produce players as well. But nobody wants to join the First Division - so it seems it has to go. And the MSL/LSL/USL will probably try to reject a merger with the First Division - so it makes sense to merge as few clubs into the new FD as possible and change the MSL/LSL/USL format as little as possible. Then if clubs want to get promoted to the Premier, they can (if they're good enough - you want to avoid a situation where a club with potential like Cabo get promoted and then flounder because it turns out they're crap) and if they don't want to get promoted, they can stay where they are. I think a 16-team Premier is the format which fits that aim the best. (You could argue for a 20-team Premier - all the current LoI clubs - but I think that's too much)
Agree with ya there.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
There is no consequence for being rubbish in the first division? I think anyone who has been even remotely involved in keeping a first division club going when the first team is going badly would beg to differ. It's absolutely brutal, and just surviving as a club in that environment is an achievement in itself.
And that's why it's so hard to get clubs to join the league- hence we have reduced from 22 to 20 and it seems more likely we will reduce further than gain more clubs.
Clubs going from intermediate football one season to playing the likes of Dundalk in a single Premier Division the next would be far too big a leap IMO, and would set most of the new entrants up for failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The First Division has many flaws, but it does at least provide a softer transition into senior football for clubs. Would Cabinteely still be in the LOI if they'd been thrown straight in at the deep end from the start ? Or would they have even joined in the first place ? The gap in quality between the top PD clubs and the lower FD clubs is getter even bigger over time e.g. 2 PD Clubs in the Europa League group stages in the last 5 years, and you wouldn't rule out more in the next 5.
I don't agree with you on the First Division really. Only three clubs have joined it and haven't gone bust or withdrawn. That's not a ringing endorsement. So why would a new team enter? And if the league has a barrier to entry like that, it's in trouble.
Cabinteely aren't a great comparison as they were catapulted into the league from I don't know what division. The result is that they were out of their depth a bit and have struggled. That's not a way to grow a league.
So imagine someone like Tralee earning promotion on the field - so they're an ok side to start with; they've finished ahead of half the current First Division for starters - and then their first league game is home to Dundalk, nor away to UCD. Then they have a reason to aim for league status, and then they could start to grow as a club.
Yes, they might get thumped. But anyone can get thumped. The issue here is that the First Division has failed - not "a 10/12 team league has failed; let's change to a 12/10 team league, but really genuinely failed - and something new is needed to grow the league. Not to grow the top clubs, not to grow the 20 clubs, but to grow the whole league.
Conroy is more of that same; that's its huge failure as a report.
The Leinster Football League, the level below the LSL. They left the LSL in 2012 I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
PCA say they now reject a 10-team league; want their report examined more closely.
So - it is still 3 down 1 up, is it? Or are we just setting the way for a change back to a 12-team league in a couple of seasons?
Gotta love this league.
https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football...-team-leagues/
I would think the FAI will impose a 10 team division anyway.
Yeah, I'm not sure what the recourse is here, now that the FAI have already confirmed their plan. I doubt the opposed clubs will threaten to walk.
Proper mess though. Stinks that Limerick and Drogs weren't consulted, because it would presumably have been tied in the initial vote then, and 7-5 against now.
Of course, the FD clubs should also have had a voice, and I'd imagine a good few, or maybe even all of them, would have been in favour of a 10/10 split.
I doubt the FD clubs want 10/10?
Or is that a typo?
Wouldn't many FD clubs appreciate a bigger division? More diversity in opponents, 8 more games a season.
Edit: Obviously, I'm sure they'd like it to be accomplished by getting more clubs into the LOI but within the confines of the 20 teams we have this is the only way to increase the size of the FD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
You must be living in La La Land!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would have thought they'd all be in favour of a 12-team Premier so they can get out of the First Division myself.
Yeah, and at least the playoffs are relatively reachable. Whereas the sudden change and scrapping of playoffs leaves any club without a realistic chance of winning the division facing a lost season. Very hard to sell anything related to a club when there isn't even a distant shout of promotion.
All this talk of regionalised first division and all of this does my head in is there actually anything at all to suggest any club not currently in the LOI would be in any way more interested if that happened? The big plan is to get rid of the graveyard to be replaced by regional graveyards.
But why can't the MSL/LSL/USL be the regional First Divisions?
Limerick get relegated from the Premier - into the MSL.
Tralee win the MSL and - licence permitting - they're promoted to the Premier.
Why can't that work? (Leaving out politics; if the FAI can't sort that, we may all go home)
Have any of the MSL LSL USL teams ever shown any interest in being part of the LOI? Have any of them actually got the facilities to ever step up or are we happy to just have the look of an open league when it isn't in reality? Would any of them have any kind of fan base?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The MSL is entirely teams from Cork I think at this stage not exactly ideal is it? How in any way would playing Avondale one week Douglas Hall the next be any better for a teams survival hopes than the current first division other than saving on travel?
It's fine asking why wouldn't it work but I haven't seen many asking how would it actually help anything?
If it would help the lower first division clubs to reduce travel costs for starters.
It would mean any clubs who have ambitions to get promoted can do so without the huge change that now entails (leaving your league, changing season, high probability of going bust). If they're happy where they are, fine.
Why should the MSL/LSL/USL be asked to be part of the LoI? There shouldn't be a divide in the first place. It's daft. Get rid - but respect the MSL/LSL/USL's identity and history and make as few changes ax possible.
But new clubs need to be encouraged, and cost reduction for existing clubs would help too. The current format does neither.
Are the play-offs gone for good though? Where does it say they've been permanently scrapped? I would have thought they'd make a return in 2018 when the split was finalized. Certainly, if the old format was kept 30% of FD clubs in a ten team league would be in the promotion picture at seasons end, which wouldn't be bad. I vaguely recall one of the reports mooting a group stage affair between PD's 8/9th and FD's 2/3rd to determine promotion.
And if the play-offs were still retained - beyond the coming season, the absence of which I've noted elsewhere is a bad idea - would the FD clubs still have the same level of objection to a ten/ten split?
In regards the objections to a regionalized First Division, I'd be happy with anything that would get new clubs involved in the LOI to be honest. They'll never get the chance to grow into top tier capable clubs without a baby steps approach.
Won't lash up article from SUN as they are liars :)
http://www.donegaldaily.com/2017/01/...e-be-scrapped/
......
Would imagine the playoffs will return- but even removing them for one year could be the straw that breaks the camels back for a division one club. With Waterford splashing the cash with the aim of getting up, the likes of Cobh and Wexford who have made great strides could find themselves adrift.
Between that and the failure to give D1 teams a vote, the complete lack of transparency and the general way this was done (late in the day when budgets etc are set) and presented make it one of the biggest betrayals I can recall in Irish football. It is an outright disgrace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If they were promoted they would still have to change leagues from lets say basically the MSL to the premier which then involves higher travelling costs. How is the possibility of going bust reduced for teams coming from MSL to premier than it is going from first to premier? To me it seems just changing season is what is different going from a regional first to prem than the current first to prem.
Why should they be asked? You are not suggesting we try and force teams to be part of LOI are you?
Below is a list of the current MSL teams according to the website I am not 100% sure but I think all of them are from Cork if not all then a vast majority? Of those teams listed the places I have been to don't have facilites anywhere near up to scratch so. Anyone in around Cork know if any of them actually do have decent facilites? Imagine the standard of one of the teams if we were to have 3 or 4 teams from Cork all in the regional first division and fine you can come back and say spread the clubs better across Munster but who do we force to join then if there is no interest still?
College CorinthiansCobh Wanderers Douglas Hall Avondale United St Marys UCC Ringmahon Rangers Mayfield United Castleview Rockmount
The pyramid leagues feeding into 16 team premier not a regionalised 1st division. Strict licensing criteria for all teams and no bypassing it .
All clubs are welcome to a vote, the fans can all have individual votes, I think we should ask Trump what he thinkgs too. Won't matter. The FAI decide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Does anyone have a link to the actual PCA report?
PREMIER DIVISION
Bohs - 1,627 (1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488; 1,835; 2,366)
Bray - 957 (769; 718; 891; 965; 1,121; 952; 1,169)
Cork - 2,533 (3,263; 3,777; 1,965; 2,786; 2,128 FD; 1,693 FD; 2,681)
Derry - 1,563 (1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135; 1,965 FD; 2,436)
Dundalk - 2,738 (3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355; 1,877; 2,371)
Galway - 1,169 (1,290; 975 FD)
Harps - 1,216 (784 FD; 449 FD; 479 FD; 429 FD; 433 FD; 644 FD; 480 FD) -
Longford - 488 (803; 567 FD; 379 FD; 365 FD; 315 FD; 230 FD; 260 FD)
Pat's - 1,088 (1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346; 1,756; 1,631)
Rovers - 2,041 (2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779; 3,794; 3,611)
Sligo - 1,750 (1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103; 1,807; 1,756)
Wexford - 585 (553 FD; 331 FD; 227 FD; 302 FD; 216 FD; 343 FD; 494 FD)
FIRST DIVISION
Athlone - 156 (314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200; 354; 462)
Cabinteely - 352 (610)
Cobh - 403 (366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681; 368; 403)
Drogheda - 583 (813 PD; 1,064 PD; 817 PD; 977 PD; 811 PD; 859 PD; 1,106 PD)
Limerick - 1,131 (1,206 PD; 757 PD; 1,649 PD; 734; 569; 598; 429)
Shels - 554 (596; 713; 1,114 PD; 1,187 PD; 781; 737; 972)
UCD - 297 (216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD; 272)
Waterford - 314 (460; 470; 478; 453; 466; 619; 434
With thanks to Nigel Harps for above...........
What ever about a 10 or 12 league does anyone seriously think a 16 team league is viable based on these attendances figures?
I think this is a fair point. If you were instituting anything on the basis described it would have be from a new Munster League, to include the best of Cork, Limerick and then whoever else in the province would be capable/interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewhitearmy
That's real pie in the sky though.
I realise now this means it would actually be 8-4 opposed as it stood. Still think the FAI will steamroller ahead, even if they realized that the objections of the clubs themselves are important, they wont back down now that it has been announced.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForzaHoop
The FAI would be right at this point to call the PCA a joke if they turn around now and say they want to change their mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
What sort of bunch of amateurs vote for / then request a 10 team league / then change their minds when it is announced?
There's a link on the previous page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Going from a provincial league to playing the likes of Dundalk is far too big a step. Provincial leagues feeding a top-tier division is just going to kill the team that gets relegated and embarrass the one that gets promoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
People giving out about travel costs in the FD need a kick up the arse as well. It's one among many different costs.
A regionalised First Division would make it even less attractive than it is already.
Rather than arranging the 20 deckchairs on the Titanic, the Premier Division should be left the f alone, and just as the juvenile structures at the top level in Ireland were reformed, do the same with senior football.
Feed the regional leagues into the First Division and let the clubs with the ambition to play at as high a level as possible, rise to it. Let the "big fish in a small pond" types stay where they are if they want.
Just as I see happening with schoolboy football, eventually people won't even remember it was done another way and some will laugh at how utterly ridiculous it was.
I think that's what the suggestion is though. Try interfere with the non-league structure as little as possible, but merge the two so that FD clubs can join a regionalised league while non-league clubs have the chance to jump up to the LoI if they want to/are good enough/meet licencing. Because if, say, Athlone and Cabo drop out of the LoI, where are the replacements coming from?Quote:
Originally Posted by gufct
But in fairness, there's a lot more in the report apart from a league format (and suggestions to improve the Cups too). There's a call for significantly increased investment from the FAI, with a kind of return on investment to properly buy the FAI into advancing the league and an indication of the link between domestic leagues and national team success (and how the LoI is vastly underperforming in that regard). That seems to me the most important part. But unfortunately, everyone always gets hooked up on league format.
In fairness, going from the First Division to playing the likes of Dundalk is a huge step. There's non-league sides as good as First Division teams out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
There's non-league sides better than Harps out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Didn't Avondale take Harps to a replay 2 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I think Crumlin beat them this year, no?
I don't think there's any point worrying about promoted clubs being competitive with Dundalk tbh.