Tom Humphries on identity and Irishness

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Originally Posted by lopez

WWS: Tut, tut: Yet another of the Irish schooling population to have been sick the week the 'e' word was discussed in history. :rolleyes:

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Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.

nope, you've lost me

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Originally Posted by wws

Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.

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You don't know what the 'e' word is? :rolleyes: I'll leave you to get back to your crayons. Where ignorance is bliss and all that.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Does that mean you intend to force your Irishness onto them? Surely children born to parents of any nationality in a 'foreign' country have the right to adopt the identity/nationality of their own choosing, be it the nationality of the country they were born in or the nationality of their parent(s).

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What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.

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Originally Posted by davros

When all Irish people accept that to many being a Celtic fan is a manifestation of their 'Irishness',then I for one will stop banging on about it!

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As a holder of opposing beliefs to yourself on this whole topic it looks like we will be stuck with your 'banging on' forever.

I'm sure dcfcsteve's kids will follow DCFC, the same as mine will support CCFC, the same as people who support Celtic well there kids will support Celtic.
Of course you could let them make up their own mind.

Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.

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Originally Posted by Babysis

Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.

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Same for me. Always known I was Irish. Hope my own kids chose to acknowledge it as they grow up. Our local school had a "wear something blue" day, for some reason. My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt. :)

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Originally Posted by green goblin

My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt. :)

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That's what I like to see GG, a little gentle encourgement does no harm at all. :D

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Originally Posted by lopez

What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.

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Hardly a trait unique to England.

I was in a pub in Dublin watching you play Malta a few years back when I wasn't suitably ecstatic when you won. I simply didn't jump about and shout and the abuse that I got was far from good natured.

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Originally Posted by davros

Guess myself & :rolleyes: RMK will be on the same side as once! :eek:

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I always knew ye were ould pals. ;)

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Originally Posted by davros

Mind you,they might just choose to support a club side themselves!Not unlike I did myself! ;)

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I can just imagine the 6 or 7 year olds telling their Uncle Dav that they wish to support Celtic because they see it as a proper manifestation of their Irishness.
Oh you'll be so proud.

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Hardly a trait unique to England.

I was in a pub in Dublin watching you play Malta a few years back when I wasn't suitably ecstatic when you won. I simply didn't jump about and shout and the abuse that I got was far from good natured.

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I'm not surprised about that. My point was, from a media point at least, everyone is expected to support England although. This in a country that is very multi-national and cultural and which most people accept. While I must admit that I wouldn't go into a local pub to watch an England game for the same reasons you claim, on the whole I get just a bit of (good natured) digging from English workpals (very little - if any - of it 'you should be supporting England'). I don't think that would happen if I was an Englishman born, brought up and remaining in Ireland.

In a lot of ways Ireland still suffers from what Scotland appears to be suffering. A sort of inability to come terms with a colonial past. Scotland puts so much emphasis on a birth soil because there is no proper nationality. People there are British and there is insufficient number of them that want anything different. Quite a few Irish people can't come to grips with their own nationality being now separate from Britain (the same occurs from time to time in Britain aswell). This is why so many of them feel discomfort with anyone in Britain claiming to be Irish.

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)) and damned if he's too good (McGeady). I remember hearing about Kevin Nolan visiting an EL ground with QPR in the nineties getting booed. Why?: Because he chose the tans over Ireland. The same people would probably have said that he was only playing for Ireland because he wasn't good enough for England.

McGeady is under a lot of pressure. Thankfully both his club and most of his club's supporters are 100% behind him. And as he showed on Sunday, he's more than the average namby-pamby skilful player that I previously thought.

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Originally Posted by lopez

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)).

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Houghton is a total mercenary, and a prime example of what is wrong with some of them that use the Grandparent rule. He still says he's scottish and supports scotland first and foremost. He scored some memorable goals for Ireland, but that doesn't mean he didn't only play for us as a career move.

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap - the only similarity is that they were born in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Macy

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap - the only similarity is that they were born in the UK.

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That's right. I've always said that Aldridge and Townsend were never Irish, just that they were entitled to Irish citizenship. I hardly put McGeady in the same boat. He's making excuses about the Scottish youth system and only the inferiority complexes on the auld sod are fooled by it. Certainly no one in Scotland is.

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Originally Posted by lopez

That's right. I've always said that Aldridge and Townsend were never Irish, just that they were entitled to Irish citizenship. I hardly put McGeady in the same boat.

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Never said he was in the same boat - I think way back in the thread I made the very same point!

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Originally Posted by davros

Sorry,that's pure BS!
He went to school with my pal & his brother(William of York,an R.C. school,FFS),was always aware of his Donegal roots & was always keen/happy to play for Ireland......anything he says now is just playing the'sympathy' card for the Scots,now they're so sh*t!
No-one can say he was 'mercenary'as Scotland were probably better than Ireland,when he made his debut anyway.

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Well maybe he should drop that when he's doing RTE programmes like the Red and Green where he also said the same. He said 1) that he's scottish and looks for their results first and 2) He was upset when Scotland didn't call him up despite him feeling he was good enough for several seasons, so when Charlton came calling he felt he had nothing to lose. If you get the opportunity check out the programme.

btw wtf has Roman Catholic school got to do with it? There's plenty of scottish (and english and welsh) Roman Catholics too - RC schools aren't the exclusive domain of Irish descendants!

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Originally Posted by davros

I would be(& why not?).....by default they could even be CC fans......that would just deserve sympathy! :D Mind you,the ultimate nightmare would be an Ingles/ManUre shirt et al :eek:

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My sister is going though this very dilemna at the moment. She has two boys, one is Man Utd mad. Our Dad keeps trying to point out that Utd have always had a strong Irish following, could be worse, and all that. Her youngest has no interest in footie, only rugby... and wears his Ireland rugby shirt wherever he goes.
Realising the need to hook 'em in while they're youbng, Dad's made sure that my own two daughters have enough Ireland/Waterford/Celtic tops between them to kit out a ladies XI, and as a result they think the England they live in is a small island somewhere off the Wexford Coast.

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Originally Posted by davros

though as Lopez has implied elsewhere in this thread,for many Irish 2G players,'with friends like these,who needs enemies'......

Maybe we should have a 'Diaspora XI' v.a home-reared side......for charity?!& if only to appease the Ignorant.......

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In your references to the "Diaspora" and the so called ignorance of those whose families were left behind, I think there has to be a differentiation as Macy has stated.
You don't seem to be acknowledging that such a difference exists and maybe it doesn't for you?
But it certainly does for me.

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Originally Posted by Macy

It's important not to cloud the issue of foreign born players/people. There is a big difference between a 2G who consider's himself Irish (and always has) and those that only decide once they know they aint getting an English/Scottish cap

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Originally Posted by davros

Maybe we should have a 'Diaspora XI' v.a home-reared side......for charity?!& if only to appease the Ignorant.......

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Good idea. The inferiority complexes can go along and support a 'real' irish team. In the meantime I'm all for supporting the 'plastics' in other sports. London Irish against any Irish provincial side and London GAA against any Irish county side (I'm not a great lover of the Grab All Association but I met one player from London who claimed it 'kicked off' big style after they played Mayo at Ruislip. Apparently 'English' and 'B*stards' were used in the same sentence). :eek:

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Originally Posted by lopez

I'm not surprised about that. My point was, from a media point at least, everyone is expected to support England although.

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No arguments there. I find that when I try to be 'mature' about the Auld Enemy I can manage about 5 minutes before the commentators/pundits drive me back to my old ways.

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Originally Posted by lopez

In a lot of ways Ireland still suffers from what Scotland appears to be suffering. A sort of inability to come terms with a colonial past. Scotland puts so much emphasis on a birth soil because there is no proper nationality.

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You complain that your right to be Irish is denied to you, yet are quite happy to wipe out my culture and nationality with a few clicks of a keyboard ;)

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Originally Posted by lopez

McGeady is under a lot of pressure. Thankfully both his club and most of his club's supporters are 100% behind him. And as he showed on Sunday, he's more than the average namby-pamby skilful player that I previously thought.

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McGeady made his choice and I wish him the very best (unless he is playing against Scotland when I hope he has a stinker) and hope he stays with Celtic - its good for the future of the game to see someone raised in Scotland (whatever their nationality) playing the game in Scotland.

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Originally Posted by lopez

On the one hand you have the likes of WWS who sees any 'auslander' as a mercenary (even one with two Irish parents), who's damned if plays for Ireland because he's too poor for Scotland (Houghton (??)) and damned if he's too good (McGeady).

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on the contrary I don't actually see it as an issue worthy of serious debate at all. All professional footballers are mercenaries - its the nature of the game but thats besides the point. I've never held misplaced romantic nationalistic notions about the motives of people who play for ireland - quite simply I dont care - visit Lansdowne Road - itself a rugby ground - and feel the silent pain that is the lot of Irish football - its sh;t - I no longer care about the FAI and the "boys in green". We have supposedly one of the richest countries in Europe and best city to live in (?) - yet we cant field one representative in the Champions League proper - thats the fault of people who have singlehandedly failed to believe in anything other than utter dependence on England (and scotland to a lesser extent) to develop our game at elite level.

These people are not worthy of anything bar derision. Not facking sentimental bs backing.

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Originally Posted by davros

Except he's talking about 'mercenaries'.......Not the Diaspora/2G Irish people in general.....who I think are worthy of our backing,especially as only the Ignorant :rolleyes: would perceive much definable difference......

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Not sure I get you.

A player who may have been born outside Ireland but considers himself Irish is no issue at all.

A player who was happy to take his chances getting picked for what he considers his native country, then declares his Irishness at the age of 25 is a mercenary who is picking his nationality as a career move.

I don't see what is ignorant about that, it's just a different opinion. There's plenty of Ireland supporters who are quite happy for Kerr (or whoever) to get players with no real connection (eg Morrison) or players that have previously declared for England (eg Macken), there are others of us out there who would prefer the national team to be made up of people who genuinely are Irish (be that Irish born or 2nd Generation). To me that's not ignorance of the diaspora at all.

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Originally Posted by davros

Except he's talking about 'mercenaries'.......Not the Diaspora/2G Irish people in general.....who I think are worthy of our backing,especially as only the Ignorant :rolleyes: would perceive much definable difference......

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If you cannot see a "definable difference" between Kevin Kilbane (2G Irish)and Clint O'Morrison (Mercenary)and their motives in wearing the green jersey then theres not a whole lot more I can say.

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Originally Posted by davros

No-one can say he (Houghton)was 'mercenary'as Scotland were probably better than Ireland,when he made his debut anyway

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All the more reason for Ray to declare for us as he wasn't anywhere near the Scottish squad at the time. If he didn't play for us then he wouldn't have had an international career never mind a career talking tripe on RTE week in week out.

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. Both my neighbours were Irish, all house visitors were Irish. The only English people I met were at school ( mostly 2g too).All holidays spent In Galway. Yes, it was sometimes rammed down my throat to a certain extent, but I always liked the fact that I was a little different. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.

In my experience, whether at Ireland games or in general, Most sarky remarks about my Irishness have come inhabitants from Gods City - Dublin. I can totally sympathsise with dcfcs comments about the Dubs he met in Paris. I've met very few 2g in Britain whose parents came from Dublin compared to other parts of Ireland. I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

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Originally Posted by razor

Clint O'Morrison (Mercenary).

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Is Clinton Morrisons mother not Irish? She has a Dublin accent anywayand brought him up without his English father..(as far as I know) Does that not qualify him as 2nd G Oirish? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

You complain that your right to be Irish is denied to you, yet are quite happy to wipe out my culture and nationality with a few clicks of a keyboard ;)

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OK, apologies for dissing Scotland in such a manner. :(

The way I see it is that if Scotland were a independent country then it would feel less inclined to determine its citizens in being those born in the country. I'm not taking away anything from Scottish culture - the language sadly was decimated years ago - just that IMO I'm less inclined to take seriously demands that McGeady plays for 'his country' when that country is Britain, and remains so because democratically (albeit by a slim margin) Scots don't want to change that.

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Originally Posted by M@ttitude

Is Clinton Morrisons mother not Irish? She has a Dublin accent anywayand brought him up without his English father..(as far as I know) Does that not qualify him as 2nd G Oirish? :confused:

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Well if that's the case, he shouldn't have turned us down once, issued a come and get me plea to Sven, then considered playing for Jamacia, then when all other avenues had been exhausted decided he was Irish afterall.

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Originally Posted by davey

Interesting debate

I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

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Ignorance on your behalf, get your facts right mate!

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Originally Posted by davey

Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

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I'd be more inclined to go with the latter. :D

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Originally Posted by razor

I'd be more inclined to go with the latter. :D

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You would coming from Cork, get over it, Dublin is the capital.. Its ok, no need to be bitter.

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Originally Posted by davey

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.
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2g? You're lucky.
Although my uncles and aunts were all born in Waterford, my own Dad was born in Kilburn, which makes me 3g. You're more Irish than I am. My wife's Mum was born in Cork, making her more Irish than I am, and which means, on some complicated mathematical formula that my own children are more Irish than I am, despite being born in High Wycombe!
:confused: :confused: :confused:

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Originally Posted by M@ttitude

You would coming from Cork, get over it, Dublin is the capital.. Its ok, no need to be bitter.

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Thats partly to do with it of course but more to do with certain Jackeen Neanderthals I had the pleasure of meeting in Paris.

Lads, lads. Calm down!

This has got to be the maddest site forum ever. There's so many cyberbrawls going off everywhere. Conchita was trying to find out about the Munster-Quins rugby game on Saturday and wondered into the London Irish RFC forum. They spent five pages 'discussing' whether to wear a Munster scarfe or hat with their London Irish top. :D

I salute you all. :)

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Originally Posted by lopez

Lads, lads. Calm down!

This has got to be the maddest site forum ever. There's so many cyberbrawls going off everywhere. Conchita was trying to find out about the Munster-Quins rugby game on Saturday and wondered into the London Irish RFC forum. They spent five pages 'discussing' whether to wear a Munster scarfe or hat with their London Irish top. :D

I salute you all. :)

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Ahh, foot.ie. There's nowhere else quite like it :) The breadth of topics covered over the past year have been breathtaking. Politics, shampoo, wedding ettiquette, weather forecasting, lifethreatening illnesses, politics, love, death, war, we even found time to talk about football!

To M@ttitude - Get my facts right?

So Just as high a percentage of Dubs moved over to England in the 50s,60s and 60s as the rest of the country? :rolleyes: i think not

Apologies for the cheeky dig at Dubs but its my experience that Dubs are more likely to scoff at a 2g persons right to call to call themselves Irish than people from the rest of Ireland. I was just hypothesising a reason as to why this might be. Certainly Irish people from the likes of Cork, Galway, Mayo to name but a few counties are more likely to have cousins with an English accent and hence understand the nature of the 2g alittle better

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Originally Posted by lopez

OK, apologies for dissing Scotland in such a manner. :(

The way I see it is that if Scotland were a independent country then it would feel less inclined to determine its citizens in being those born in the country. I'm not taking away anything from Scottish culture - the language sadly was decimated years ago - just that IMO I'm less inclined to take seriously demands that McGeady plays for 'his country' when that country is Britain, and remains so because democratically (albeit by a slim margin) Scots don't want to change that.

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The Scots have an even worse attitude to their diaspora than the Irish - unless they are successful they either don't exist or they are a joke. If they are successful then there is a whole set of 'I knew his father...' begrudgery.

I don't know the exact reason for McGeady's choice but having lived along side Donegal Glaswegians if he didn't feel at least in part Irish he would be the only one I know of. The fact that he defied his father over his choice of country is interesting - is he a mercenary or is he rejecting an Uncle Tom attitude? Not that I'd call any Donegal Glaswegians (no matter how Scottish) Uncle Tom to their face - not if I wanted to keep my teeth that is :D

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

The Scots have an even worse attitude to their diaspora than the Irish - unless they are successful they either don't exist or they are a joke. If they are successful then there is a whole set of 'I knew his father...' begrudgery.

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I do get that impression although I've also seen - on TV when that game against Estonia was called off and in person at Prestwick in Feb. 2003 - a few 'plastics' that follow Scotland. Same I'd guess for Wales. Wise move re. Glasgow's Irish and 'Uncle Tom.'

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Originally Posted by davros

Much as I despise FIFA......They're all eligible to play for us......Next you'll be telling me you didn't cheer when 'RayO' scored in Stuttgart or New York(Btw,his 'Scottishness' was never a problem @ the time!),or when Clinton scores in a WCQ.....Or wait until a mixed race Black-Romanian from Dublin does?

If we had more decent players,we wouldn't pursue these FIFA rules....who cares anyway.....& would like to see you say it to their face,that 'They're Not Irish'...rather them than some of the parochial bigots on here!

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Dav, I'm getting worried. I actually agree with everything you say in this! Either you are getting sensible or I am going mad. If I start supporting Celtic, I will know it is the latter! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Dav, I'm getting worried. I actually agree with everything you say in this! Either you are getting sensible or I am going mad. If I start supporting Celtic, I will know it is the latter! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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He's becoming more of a man of the people these days after his trip down under meeting new people and all that craic, he could be changing like Che Guevara did after his trip around South America.

Maybe dav's next big trip could be a trip around the OSC by BMX bike.
Davros, the BMX diaries would be a best seller at Easons. :eek:

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Originally Posted by davros

Much as I despise FIFA......They're all eligible to play for us......Next you'll be telling me you didn't cheer when 'RayO' scored in Stuttgart or New York(Btw,his 'Scottishness' was never a problem @ the time!),or when Clinton scores in a WCQ.....Or wait until a mixed race Black-Romanian from Dublin does?

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Sure theres nothing either of us can do about eligibility
My point on "RayO" was that I believe his motives for playing for Ireland were mercenary, I never said the man didn't give his all for us when wearing the jersey. the same goes for Clinton right now, I think maybe i'm just more cynical now as i'm getting older.

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Originally Posted by davros

who cares anyway

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I feel it an honour to possess an Irish passport, Obviously some people don't feel that way. Al Fayed will have one next.

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Originally Posted by davros

If we had more decent players,we wouldn't pursue these FIFA rules....who cares anyway.....& would like to see you say it to their face,that 'They're Not Irish'

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To be honest I don't reckon Clinton or Macken would care and as for "RayO" he'd probably agree.

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Originally Posted by davey

Interesting debate

As a 2g born and brought up in birmingham, Was brought up to consider myself Irish. It was an all pervading influence. Both my neighbours were Irish, all house visitors were Irish. The only English people I met were at school ( mostly 2g too).All holidays spent In Galway. Yes, it was sometimes rammed down my throat to a certain extent, but I always liked the fact that I was a little different. TBH, reading the vast majority of posts on here, most people would accept my Irishness.

In my experience, whether at Ireland games or in general, Most sarky remarks about my Irishness have come inhabitants from Gods City - Dublin. I can totally sympathsise with dcfcs comments about the Dubs he met in Paris. I've met very few 2g in Britain whose parents came from Dublin compared to other parts of Ireland. I suspect Dubliners didn't face the same Economic pressures that many "culchies" faced in the 50s,60s and 70s. Whether its this ignorance of the true nature of the diaspora or just simply the fact that many Dubs are simply fu*kwits - Im not sure.

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in my opinion, very well said. :)