Nawww it hasnt really. Its just been a handy excuse. If it wasnt for religion they'd find other things to fight about. Hair colour, sink colour, nationality, ethnic background, football teams supportedQuote:
Originally Posted by exile
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Nawww it hasnt really. Its just been a handy excuse. If it wasnt for religion they'd find other things to fight about. Hair colour, sink colour, nationality, ethnic background, football teams supportedQuote:
Originally Posted by exile
Well said. Religion is the cause of the majority of wars and hatred in this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by exile
just got to look at some of those lunatic muslim factions their sole aim is for the world to be ruled according to their take on the koran
and why shouldn't they? Sure whoever wrote it originally was doing the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SÓC
IMO religion should be illegal outside of your own home. Its a load of claptrap which has caused the world no end of hassle. If people want to believe in a higher being they can do it on their own time and in the privacy of their own home. and quit bugging me about it
Not being pedantic, but the problem here isn't with religion - it's with people. To blame religion is to be overly simplistic about the sources of human conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by exile
Plenty of people around the world live and worship peacefully side-by-side with people of other religions without any problems. Unfortunately a minority within certain regions seem unable to do so. But the sole source of those conflicts isn't religion- it's usually one or more of a set of cultural issues/differences (ethnic origin, language, tradition, history etc, as well as religion). The key problem seems to be when these differences lead to intolerance of another group(s) in close proximity, and/or a desire to be self-governing (which again is usually the consequences of actual or perceived inequality sprung from intolerance).
Take Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants throughout the rest of the world exist in peaceful co-existence. Stick them together in Belfast and they don't. Why ? Competing cultural identities and conflicting demands upon the same geographical space. Not religion (Catholics and Protestants over the border in places like Donegal, Dublin and Cork manage to co-exist peacefully).
The problem in the south of Thailand that has flared-up recently with separatist rebels (the one where 75 Muslim protestors suffocated to death in the back of a Thai military truck) -that's been made-out in the media to be a Muslim versus Buddhist thing. It's not - it's a disparate cultural group looking to establish an independent self-governing state for the Muslim-dominated south of the country. It just happens that, like Norn Iron, the 2 different cultural groups are easily defined along religious lines.
Hitler selected the majority of the targets for his concentration camps purely on the basis of their belonging to a certain religion. Does that therefore mean that his actions were religiously motivated ? Was the source of responsibility for the Holocaust really religion ?
As someone else stated, if it wasn't religion that some people were fighting about it'd be something else instead - as a result of intolerance of those who are different.
Absolute tosh! Let's see who were the biggest killers of the 20C. Hitler (didn't believe in God), Stalin (didn't believe in God) and, Mao (who, erm, didn't believe in God).Quote:
Originally Posted by exile
Don't mean to be rude but, to put it succinctly, what are you doing here? The thread states it's about religion. It's not like you're Mary Whitehouse who's stumbled into a website by the title 'Gay Cottaging.com' thinking its about a load of happy ruralites doing up their homes. For someone who doesn't like to be 'bugged' about religion, you've gone out of your way to be hassled by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
i did actualy say through the years but should have said throughout the centuries more people have been killed by the excuse of religion thats a fact. although dcfc steve said it is a bit simplistic and i agree and hitler did belive religion all be it mysticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
absolute tosh :rolleyes:
Think you're wrong on old Adolf. While he may not have been a practicing RC -he was raised one and boasts in Mein Kampf I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work.Quote:
the biggest killers of the 20C. Hitler (didn't believe in God),
Now he might have taken the same a la carte approach to his faith that many RCs seem to do -but he was no atheist.
For the role of women in his new germany he also advocated the "three K's" Kinder, Kischten, Kerchen (sorry about the appalling spelling -didn't do german -but wrote about this along time ago for a dissertation) -Children, Kitchen, Church.
How many people were killed in WW2. 50 million perhaps? How many killed in various proxy wars between communism and capitalism? Even NI can not be counted as a religious conflict. Not when the father figure of republicanism was a secular protestant. The nearest biggest number killed in a war over religion is 3-4 million during the 30 years war of the 17C and other loosely associated battles (from the inquisition to the Boyne and Aughrim). Every significant war since (Napoleanic, American Civil War, Crimea, Franco-Prussian, Boer, WW1,2, Vietnam, etc.) had nothing to do with religion. A convenient scapegoat to hide the harm that nationalism causes.Quote:
Originally Posted by exile
The only bits of Meing Kampf I 've read were from reading Ian Kershaw's biography and the general impression given throughout is of a person who believes Chrisitianity as nothing more than a Jewish cult. He kept going on about providence (whatever that is, but does suggest a belief in a higher being), but God, in a religious sense? I can't believe he was that struck on him. Mein Kampf was written in 1923 (perhaps). His sidekick to the last, Martin Bormann, was a fanatical anti-religious headcase (who's son ironically became a priest) that I wouldn't have thought reached his position if Hitler was as religious as you suggest (certainly being brought up an RC counts as nothing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
It is of course important to remember that nazism and communism were philosophies in their own right and shared numerous things similar to religions, particularly organised ones. However the death and destruction that is suggested as being brought about solely by religion derives not from the religion itself and is equally evident within other areas, in particular, nationalism.
Well, to put it in perspective, the 1918 flu epidemic killed more people than the Black Death, yet alone any war in the last century.
Surely the biggest killer in recent times has been poverty, when looked at on a global scale.
Obscene numbers of people are dying in the developing world through utterly preventable diseases. They are poor, in part, because of the (secular) government policies of the rich western world. I don't think that Christian Aid, Cafod, Save the Children, Tear Fund, or any other bunch of (religious based) people raising money to buy rice, medicine, pastic sheets and water for the poor souls are really to blame for their suffering. It's far too trite to say religion is a cause of war. The Moslems who drive ambulances into war zones for the Red Crescent are no more warmongers than their Red Cross counterparts.
I've no problem discussing it, I just get fed up of the bible-bashing types who push their religion in peoples faces thats all.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Well the Mormon or JW on the door is probably more sincere (helping your salvation or whatever) in what he's 'selling' (Mormons like 7 day wonders take a percentage of your money. JWs rely on contributions and sales of their publishing wing) than the double glazing tw*ts that bang on peoples' doors. As for anyone else, who's shoving it in your face? No one here is. In fact the shoving is from people who rubbish people's beliefs while claiming (wrongly) that religion is responsible for most non-'nature related' deaths ever. I mean you'd have something to complain if someone went on the Israel thread and declared that the land there is Jewish 'cos God says so.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
who's shoving it in my face? Just look at the education system in this country- full of it. the angelus on tv at 6 o'clock etc., It really bugs me. I totally respect people's right to their beliefs, and I have no problem with people believing in a higher being, but I just don't think it should be done in public. And religion is a factor in almost every conflict on the planet- even if it is only being used as an excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I won't run down the good, selfless work that religious based charities of every hue do in the developing (and indeed developed) world. But it is an absolute fact that the Pope for example -has used his power and position to oppose and organise opposition to every reasonable step towards the most basic family planning provisions in many developing countries. And i'm not talking about abortion here -I'm talking about condoms, pills etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by green goblin
Possibly worse -he and the likes of "Mother" teresa have gone to these places and urged uneducated young people who can scarcely feed themselves to "breed for the church" as Europe has become godless.
The man has consistently been part of the problem rather than the solution in the developing world -and before someone comes back with "what about him putting on Bonos glasses and looking for third world debt to be wiped out?"
-I'll just say It's a pretty easy thing to ask someone else to take a hit for the greater good. he'd be more in his line to drag some of his own teachings out of the 19th century by way of example to those whom he'd like to see give up on flogging a dead horse.
I remember reading in some Natural History book (Nightmares of Nature or something) that, across History, the mosquito is responsible for more deaths than all wars put together. I’m not sure how true the book was, but I hazard a guess it could well be the case. Worryingly Malaria is said to be spreading back to places it was long eradicated from (e.g. Balkan Coast, Southern Italy, Central America). Diseases spread by fast breeding bacteria or virii are deadly and very infectious.Quote:
Originally Posted by green goblin
I really don't understand why it bugs you. No one forces you to watch the angelus. It may not be your thing, but it is valued by a significant portion of the population, probably more than would be interested in an eL match on TV. You are free not to watch the whole 60 seconds given over to this dispicable broadcast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
I do chose not to watch it. religion has its place and I think things like the angelus are symbolic of the intrusive nature of the RC church in this countryQuote:
Originally Posted by crc
All i'll say is theres no way Mary was a Virgin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo
yeh mean cameron diaz ? :rolleyes: :D
Eanna - times have changed since the Church effectively ran the country, and we'll probably never go back to that situation. To ban this program would be a form of discrimination against those people who derive some benefit from it (on whatever level), and they are numerous.
If you look at it objectively, religion makes no less sense than 22 guys kicking an inflated bladder around simply for their own enjoyment.
Looked at from a different perspective, would Joseph have hung around raisng this kid (who wasn't his), if he wasn't getting any?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo
and she loved it too ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by crc
agreed. I certainly hope not.Quote:
Originally Posted by crc
I don't agree at all. And I would have no problem with the showing of religious broadcasting if all faiths were represented. The RC church is the biggest and will therefore get the most coverage, thats fair enough. But just in the sphere of broadcasting alone, RTE as a national broadcaster should be doing more to educate people on other religions/faiths which are in this country- just as an example, when its Ramadan, could RTE news or Primetime do a feature on the Muslim Community in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by crc
again, I agree 100%. But the difference is that people who watch football don't go around telling other people that their soul depends on them going to football matches and so on- I watch football, and I discuss it with other people who do. If someone's not interested, I don't judge them because of it. There's still a massive stigma attached to being a "non-believer"Quote:
Originally Posted by crc
Ah my little outragous amigo, I don't think anyone disputes this, afterall the bible does state that Jesus had siblings, the 'Virgin Mary' refers to the birth of Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo
Does it? very interesting indeed. still, immaculate conception? give me a break!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton
I have no idea whether RTE do stuff on Muslims in Ireland, but I do remember seeing a good show about the Jewish Commuity here. However, I would encourage RTE to broadcast these sorts of programs, but regardless of this it is not a good argument to use to stop broadcastin the angelus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
islam is the fastest growing religion in this country :eek:
If religion is so great why do so many people die and get persecuted because of it? and in the name of other religions.......
and if god exists he obviously had a bad holiday in SE Asia once
and how many people honestly belive they go to heaven or hell i say keep god out of ireland :p
I agree, balanced, informative programs on previously ignored themes (not just religion but all sorts of things) would be good. Your choice of Ramadan is interesting, as I’m sure your well aware its the duty of every Muslim to perform the Hadj at least once in their lifetime (if they can afford it and are physically capable). This (the pilgrimage to Mecca and then walk to Medina) is seen as one of the key facets of Islam for Muslims. A few other European Media stations often cover the Hadj using reporters from their countries. For instance the BBC use Raghi (sp?) Omar (a British Muslim TV Journalist), who reported on British people doing the Hadj live from Mecca. However, to be fair to RTE it could be difficult for them to do a similar program, aside from the cost of flying out there there is one other problem. Non-Muslims are not allowed into either Mecca or Medina as they are very holy cities in Islamic thought (see here for more explanations of this law). They could probably hire a local news crew to film etc, but I feel to appeal to Irish citizens ideally they would need an Irish Muslim TV Journalist (an Irish Raghi Omar for want of a better phrase), so I guess RTE will just have to wait a few years until they have such a figure. As exile points out a few posts above, Islam is the most rapidly growing religion in Ireland, so I'm sure its only a few years before RTE are able to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
I agree. The angelus have no place on public tv in a modern society. Ireland is becoming a more cosmopolitan society with different religions on the increase. It is wrong that one religion is promoted on tv with a few stupid gongs every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
The RC church in Ireland still has too strong an input. A close friend of mine and his family had to lie to get him into school cause he was not Catholic. He's Buddhist and 100% Irish but there was no school for him.
why could there not be a minutes silence instead of the angelus- that would allow people of all faiths (or none) to contemplate/think/ignore it as they pleased- instead of being specific to any religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by crc
for all of you out there who are sick of your normal everyday religions try this
here :D
Don't have time to read all pages but I don't think this is right; Catholics know what we believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
I am a dedicated Catholic-alter serving every Sunday. I wear ma Roseary and I prey-I think the most important things is to live a good Christian life. The differences betwen Catholicism and Anglicanism although significant must be accepted as just that-different ways to worship the same God. I have catholic friends, Protestant friends and Atheist friends-the local Protestant church lets us use it for Sunday morning mass as there isn't a Catholic church in our villiage.
WWIQuote:
Originally Posted by exile
WWII
Gulf War I
gulf War II
Vietnam
Falklands
Boer War
Northern Ireland conflict (religion was dragged into it)
Korea War
Serbian-Kosovo
Iraq-Iran
Religion was not the root of any of these!
it has played a part in some of them, but hey, we can all be selective about which facts we choose- the fact is, overall in terms of conflict in the world, religion plays a huge part.Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
WWI: no
WWII: Hitler's persecution of the Jews, certainly a part of the war. the support of the Catholic Church (or senior elements within) for Hitler and Mussolini
Gulf War I: no
gulf War II: Yes. Bush's insane right-wing evangelical beliefs have certainly played a part in his decision making, and much of his loyal support base is convinced that Islam is evil
Vietnam: no
Falklands: no
Boer War: probably not
Northern Ireland conflict (religion was dragged into it): total cráp. It is as much a part of it as anything else.
Korea War: no
Serbian-Kosovo: yes.
Iraq-Iran: different factions within Islam were involved AFAIK.
I can make a list too:
Yugoslavian civil war.
Northern Ireland.
Israel-Palestine.
India- Pakistan.
etc etc
The simple fact of the matter is that both sides in this debate are right- religion itself has rarely been the actual cause of conflict, but it has been used to cause/continue/widen conflicts all over the world. In reality the basic tenents of all religions are the same- love your neighbour, be a good person, believe in a higher being. Every single thing beyond and above that is man-made: and once man gets involved, so does human nature and that means trouble. Hence me saying that it should be illegal outside of the home!
Blaming Catholics for WWI is below the belt, many on here would argue Bush is fighting for oil, defence or revenge, not Christianity, Israel/Palestine is a lot do do with territory isn't it? You're right though; religion does (unfortunatley) get dragged into these terrotorial issues....whcih sucks because it defies the point of religion-still; no reason to put it down!Quote:
Originally Posted by Éanna
Look at all the good religion has done for the world!
Christian aid, people finding help, Lourdes etc.
I didn't!!! I don't blame Catholics (as a whole group of people) for anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
I didn't say he was fighting for Christianity, I said it was what motivated his actions, and the source of much of his support. He's said that himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
yes. israel claims rights to the land they stole from the Palestinians because they are "god's people"Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
I would argue that that is the goodness of human nature, rather than any religion. As for Lourdes- what about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by liam88
I firmly believe that the vast majority of religious people are good, well-meaning people. The problem is that in religions (especially the RC Church) the people who get to the top are the scheming, political people motivated by greed and by themselves. And they use their positions to impose their beliefs on others. Look at the current Pope's crusade against homosexuality, and the use of condoms- that man is probably responsible for more deaths in the world than the Communism he fought against for years, because of his idiotic beliefs. He's the head of a supposedly well-intentioned organisation and he's downright evil.