GAA to open Croker

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Originally Posted by Donal81

If the FAI were in the GAA's position, they'd be doing the exact same thing.

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Exactly.

It's not the GAA's fault that the government gave them millions in grants.
It's not the GAA's fault that the FAI did so little with the money they've received.
It's not the GAA's fault that there was no provisions put on the money awarded.

Even though I don't like it, I think the GAA are perfectly within their rights to look for money to open up Croker. Money was always going to be the grease on the hinges anyway, the running costs of the stadium are huge.

It's a bit rich to knock the Govt. for giving the money to build Croker though, when they're giving as much to redevelop Landsdowe.

This goes back to the GAA being an amateur association being run professionally and the FAI being a professional association run amateurishly.

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Originally Posted by tiktok

It's a bit rich to knock the Govt. for giving the money to build Croker though, when they're giving as much to redevelop Landsdowe.

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They should've given the money way back when eP was on the table, then we wouldn't still be discussing it? We'd have our own state of the art stadium by now.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

as mentioned above... it will be suitable for and available to the GAA

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Thanks for that but do you know if is was a condition attached to the government funding for LR that it be made available to the GAA for matches.

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Originally Posted by Dotsy

Thanks for that but do you know if is was a condition attached to the government funding for LR that it be made available to the GAA for matches.

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It is definitely available for GAA. It was part of the conditions announced at the time.

Anyway Lansdowne Road would be available today for GAA if anybody asked the rugby crowd. They'd be happy to rent it out.

Indeed any sporting organisation on this planet would be happy to rent out their facilities for a reasonable fee if not already in use. That is bar one.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

The GAA consistently make the point that why should they change their rules - they haven't even been asked by the FAI for the use of the pitch.

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They should change it's rules because it's wrong, outdated, hypocritical and bigotted. Whether they then choose to rent out Croker is another thing, but the ban should preclude them from receiving any further Government funds for any part of their organisation.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

With all our 'let's blame the Government' 'let's blame the GAA' 'let's blame every other organisation for the woes of the FAI', can anyone tell me whether or not the FAI have ever actually asked to use Croke Park? The GAA consistently make the point that why should they change their rules - they haven't even been asked by the FAI for the use of the pitch.

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The F.A.I. don't for fear of embarrassing the GAA.

Limerick asked to use the Gaelic Grounds in 1981 and were refused and indeed had a scheme to buy it and sell it back for less money a day later drawn up but the local GAA backed out of it. They were actually quite supportive and confident it did not break GAA rules but the Munster Council would have slaughtered them and the ground would have been blacklisted for years afterwards. Ballindereen after they gave their pitch to Galway United and didn't host a game for 8 years afterwards. The pitch was community owned to the local GAA club were able to rent it out. they got hit hard for supporting Galway United though.

Statoil also tried to hold the F.A.I. Junior Cup draw in a Croke Park function room.

The GAA haven't changed their rules because of a minority of bigots who would rather burn Croke Park than allow a British game in there.

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Originally Posted by tiktok

Exactly.

It's not the GAA's fault that the government gave them millions in grants.
It's not the GAA's fault that the FAI did so little with the money they've received.
It's not the GAA's fault that there was no provisions put on the money awarded.

Even though I don't like it, I think the GAA are perfectly within their rights to look for money to open up Croker. Money was always going to be the grease on the hinges anyway, the running costs of the stadium are huge.

It's a bit rich to knock the Govt. for giving the money to build Croker though, when they're giving as much to redevelop Landsdowe.

This goes back to the GAA being an amateur association being run professionally and the FAI being a professional association run amateurishly.

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Finally someone talks sense on this whole issue. I Agree 100% with all the above.

I can understand the criticism of the GAA as being hypocritical and bigoted. What I don't understand is why people assume or expect them to open it up to the FAI and soccer. While I appreciate soccer, GAA and rugby, I can also appreciate the history of the GAA in which many of its members are steeped. You can call this sectartianism, bigotry or love for the games and their history - it's not going to change either way and I'm not making a case for either option. The GAA have an impressive stadium which was developed to be a modern HQ for gaelic games. I don't think they are obliged to allow in associations which can't get their act together to build their own stadium. It would be nice of them, sure, and I'd love to see an international game played in a decent stadium for once but I don't expect them to be nice.

The GAA might be bolshy towards soccer, some here say they are bigoted, but they aren't obliged to help out soccer or rugby and at least they deliver for their members and aren't run by an incompetent shower of sh*tes. That's why I don't get the ferocity of the criticism here.

Bigoted and sectarian organisations shouldn't get grants and funding. So the Government should withhold all funding until the ban is lifted (for all GAA grounds) on this basis. They'd still have to agree terms for opening any ground up, but their last remaining bigotted rule would be gone.

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Originally Posted by Macy

So the Government should withhold all funding until the ban is lifted (for all GAA grounds) on this basis.

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To do this, the Government would have to declare that the rule was bigoted, and imply that the organisation itself was bigoted and sectarian, that's not going to fly in any constituency.
If they took this approach, I reckon the GAA would dig their heels in and fight it tooth and nail.

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Originally Posted by tiktok

To do this, the Government would have to declare that the rule was bigoted, and imply that the organisation itself was bigoted and sectarian, that's not going to fly in any constituency.
If they took this approach, I reckon the GAA would dig their heels in and fight it tooth and nail.

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The Organisation is, the Government never would as it's too busy bending over the cabinet table taking it from behind from the GAA, Horsey Set and Doggie Fanciers...

Let the GAA dig in their heels, they'd soon back down when they'd be begging the Government to buy Croker off them to clear their debts (which they can't do on their own).

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Originally Posted by Macy

Bigoted and sectarian organisations shouldn't get grants and funding. So the Government should withhold all funding until the ban is lifted (for all GAA grounds) on this basis. They'd still have to agree terms for opening any ground up, but their last remaining bigotted rule would be gone.

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I follow Irish soccer, have done since 1987 with Cork City, I still can't understand all this crap about the GAA. I love GAA as well. Why doesn't soccer sort it's own house out instead of constantly looking to the GAA to blame/cover up their own problems. The GAA owe soccer nothing. The problem lies with the soccer authorities not the GAA. Don't mind the funding, let the footie authorities fight their own corner and stop looking to blame someone else for their own success. I always have thought and I still do that it's pure jealousy of the GAA the leads to this opinion that they owe soccer something. They don't!!!!

I've said many times that it's mainly the Governments faults, however the GAA are still bigoted, as the ban only extends as far as sports that they perceive to be british and protestant. If any other organisation had a similar implied sectarianism it wouldn't get funding.

Macy, I agree with you in relation to the hypocrisy of allowing the Special Olympics, Garth Brooks, Tina Turner, U2, etc into Croker but not professional sports. I think this comes back to sports competing against each other for attention and advertising, they don't want to allow soccer and rugby a massive piece of free advertising by allowing them to play in Croker. This move would give the FAI an enormous boost. While I don't think it's the friendliest approach in the world and certainly isn't helpful towards Irish sport as a whole, I think it's completely understandable.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

.. I think this comes back to sports competing against each other for attention and advertising, they don't want to allow soccer and rugby a massive piece of free advertising by allowing them to play in Croker. This move would give the FAI an enormous boost. While I don't think it's the friendliest approach in the world and certainly isn't helpful towards Irish sport as a whole, I think it's completely understandable.

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given the english premiership supporting nature of many football "supporters" in Ireland i'd say a major "home" Ireland championship qualifier in Manchester or Liverpool (when lansdowne is being rebuilt) would create far better exposure for football in Ireland than an Ireland match in croke park. just think of the publicity that having to move a home qualifier accross the water would have due to the scandal

also, the sporting publics backlash against the GAA for allowing (whether you consider it to be their fault or not) an Irish home qualifier to be played outside Ireland while an 80,000 stadium lies empty in Ireland would be a PR disaster for them. how could they continue to claim to be supporting all things Irish if they allowed a british football club make a load of cash from a "home" Irish qualifier??

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

given the english premiership supporting nature of many football "supporters" in Ireland i'd say a major "home" Ireland championship qualifier in Manchester or Liverpool (when lansdowne is being rebuilt) would create far better exposure for football in Ireland than an Ireland match in croke park. just think of the publicity that having to move a home qualifier accross the water would have due to the scandal

also, the sporting publics backlash against the GAA for allowing (whether you consider it to be their fault or not) an Irish home qualifier to be played outside Ireland while an 80,000 stadium lies empty in Ireland would be a PR disaster for them. how could they continue to claim to be supporting all things Irish if they allowed a british football club make a load of cash from a "home" Irish qualifier??

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I see your point but I don't think the GAA will be too concerned about PR when it comes to Croker. The media savvy hierarchy might be but it hasn't affected them so far and I can't see it affecting the grassroots. Remember, the GAA is nothing if not grassroots.

Just to clarify, I would love to see soccer in Croke Park and I wish that those against it in the GAA would reconsider but I'm not a GAA member. If I was a member of the GAA, an amateur organisation drenched in a revolutionary Irish history - look to Crossmaglen for a modern day example - I would not appreciate being told to open up the stadium that my organisation had built in order to cover for the inadequacies of another organisation which has somehow managed to let the last 15 years of unprecedented soccer wealth pass them by. The revolutionary part might be completely outdated but it's still there.

The combined salaries of the Irish starting XI could make a sizeable down payment on their own stadium. The 30 players who take the field in the All-Ireland are back in the bank/truck/farm etc on Monday morning. While soccer players have become coke-snorting, playboy millionaires, the original ethos of the GAA is at least still hanging around. The rich crowd then come to the amateurs because they can't build their own stadium. This isn't a concrete reason for not opening Croker but I can easily see why the GAA aren't exactly sympathetic to the FAI's 'plight'.

I don't think the GAA claims to represent all things Irish. I think they claim to represent the interests of Gaelic games, which they certainly do.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I don't think the GAA claims to represent all things Irish. I think they claim to represent the interests of Gaelic games, which they certainly do.

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yes, but they also claim to support all things Irish... for example.... they only allow their playing gear etc. to be made in Ireland and while re-building Croke Park they insisted that Irish materials be used where at all possible etc. etc.
dont get me wrong, i support that kind of policy 100% but its because of that very policy that I cant see how they could let mega bucks in rent go to the coffers of a british football club and force many Irish supporters, who mostly also support the GAA, travel abroad to see their country play a "home" qualifier. blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

I cant see how they could let mega bucks in rent go to the coffers of a british football club and force many Irish supporters, who mostly also support the GAA, travel abroad to see their country play a "home" qualifier. blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

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From an Irish sporting perspective, it would be miserable, you're right, IMO. The GAA certainly aren't helping Irish soccer and your point that it would also undermine their pride in Irishness and nationalism is spot on. I suppose, though, that your average GAA member who wants to keep Croker closed couldn't give a toss what the FAI does with its money and isn't thinking along your lines.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

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So if Dunnes Stores gets into trouble you think Tesco should share their retail space with them? The GAA is in direct competition with soccer for not just bums on seats but kids in every parish in the country who are the future fans, the GAA has a huge competitive advantage over soccer, why would they risk that? The GAA owes nothing to the FAI and I don't think appeals to the national honour should or will have any effect. The FAI should use the GAA as a role model on good management and long term planning - basically the FAI has a better product, in how many school yards throughout the country do kids play football/hurling versus soccer - I think it is at least 95% soccer? Has the FAI made sufficient inroads into the GAA hegemony over the past 30 years?

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

So if Dunnes Stores gets into trouble you think Tesco should share their retail space with them?

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As far as i'm aware neither Dunnes nor Tescos have received grants from the taxpayer

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Originally Posted by Donal81

but not professional sports.

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American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)

Public money paid for a significant portion of Croke Park.

The GAA can do what they like with it.

However if they choose to leave it lying empty while hundreds of millions of euro and hundreds of jobs are lost to this country when they could be renting it out and earning money that otherwise would go to the British economy then they should not get any more public money.

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Originally Posted by Macy

American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)

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wasn't there a professional boxing match there too, decades ago?

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Originally Posted by Macy

American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)

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I meant games that the GAA directly competes with for attention and advertising. American Football doesn't, nor does boxing. International Rules is a showcase of the links between the two countries' games. To say that Aussie Rules is robbing the GAA of talent is exaggerating that particular situation. The GAA doesn't compete with Aussie Rules like, say, the Eircom League does with the Premier League, there are very few Irish players in Aussie Rules. My point was that I can understand why they don't want to help out professional sports against which they're competing.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Public money paid for a significant portion of Croke Park.

The GAA can do what they like with it.

However if they choose to leave it lying empty while hundreds of millions of euro and hundreds of jobs are lost to this country when they could be renting it out and earning money that otherwise would go to the British economy then they should not get any more public money.

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Excellent point gspain. As far as I am concerned the GAA can get rid of rule 42 or not, it's their decision. They got previous funds from the goverment with no strings attached and fair play to them. However the situation has now arisen where the FAI will have to play their games in the UK for a couple of years because of the redevelopment of LR. THIs is a unique situation. Nobody is asking them to allow soccer and rugby to be played in CP indefinitely. If they don't want to do it then fine but why should the taxpayer effectively help pay down their debt (due to development of CP) when they choose to turn their nose up at the opportunity to raise some of these funds themselves by foregoing the rent and share of the gate receipts they would get from allowing soccer games at CP for a relatively short period of time. I don't buy this line that it will be the thin end of the wedge. If they remove rule 42 it will still be up to the GAA when and where they allow their grounds to be used for soccer or rugby. I don't think the government insisting that CP be opened up for these games in return for additional funding is any worse than the GAA saying that they will remove rule 42 if they get an additional €50m funding. Most people here supported O' Donoghue in his stance with the FAI over the advertising of the posts of CEO and CFO even though he himself stated it could affect some of the FAI's funding. If the government is putting public funds into a sports organisation it has a duty to ensure those funds are been used wisely. The same should apply to funding the GAA as it does to funding the FAI.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

The rich crowd then come to the amateurs because they can't build their own stadium.

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If the GAA paid its players, it wouldn't have had the money to pay for Croke Park.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

If the GAA paid its players, it wouldn't have had the money to pay for Croke Park.

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I'm not sure what your point is. The GAA should be forced to do something because it's lucky enough to be amateur? The FAI will never be able to build its own stadium because it represents a professional sport? The FAI doesn't pay its players either (unlike the IRFU, which has its own stadium) but has sat on a huge growth in interest in Irish soccer and growth in interest in soccer itself as well as growth in revenue from advertising, sponsorship, etc. The FA managed to do it. The French Football Association managed it. These are much bigger organisations and I'm sure they received government funding but the FAI has never gotten its act together over the years to get this going.

Again, I hope that international games don't go to England and I hope people in the GAA change their minds but telling them how wrong they are and how they have to do this and that isn't the way to go.

The FA isn't building the new wembley on their own - it's with Sports England, The Government plus lotto funding.

Half the cost was put up by the Government, plus they have tax breaks for years to come.

My point is that it's far from co-incidental that the two large stadia in the country were built by amateur (at the time) organisations. Organisations that don't pay their most productive employees have, by definition, more money than those who do. The implication that a professional organisation should be in a better position to build a stadium is untrue.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

The French Football Association managed it.

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The Stade De France was built by the French government wasn't it?

Apologies if this has been already mentioned in the thread, haven't been able to read the whole thing !

Does anyone know how the GAA got around rule 42 to allow american football to be played in Croke Park ? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Schumi

My point is that it's far from co-incidental that the two large stadia in the country were built by amateur (at the time) organisations. Organisations that don't pay their most productive employees have, by definition, more money than those who do. The implication that a professional organisation should be in a better position to build a stadium is untrue.


The Stade De France was built by the French government wasn't it?

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If the Stade de France was built by the French government, I take it back, I assumed they were involved to some extent but not that much.

Unlike the IRFU, though, the FAI doesn't pay players, does it? The IRFU is making a loss because it pays the wages of all provincial players. The FAI doesn't do this. Instead, they have a gigantic organisation of committees and councils and clowns getting huge cheques for achieving little. The GAA and the IRFU are run like businesses (the IRFU makes a loss but this is part of a 10-year plan). If the FAI had been run like a business from the start and if someone had copped on to the obvious benefits of having a stadium, there would at least be some cash for that now and there would be an impressive organisation making an impressive plea to the government.

I feel that we're getting off the point, though. The GAA got their stadium not because they were an amateur organisation that had loads of money sitting around as a result but because they managed to lobby a government supportive of it.

I wish the GAA would open it but telling the GAA that they're wrong won't work.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

As far as i'm aware neither Dunnes nor Tescos have received grants from the taxpayer

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You're obviously not an accountant :D :D

FWISW

Rule 42: Uses of Property
(a) All property including grounds, Club
Houses, Halls, Dressing Rooms and
Handball Alleys owned or controlled by
units of the Association shall be used only
for the purpose of or in connection with
the playing of the Games controlled by
the Association, and for such other
purposes not in conflict with the Aims
and Objects of the Association, that may
be sanctioned from time to time by the
Central Council.
(b) Grounds controlled by Association units
shall not be used or permitted to be used,
for Horse Racing, Greyhound Racing, or
for Field Games other than those
sanctioned by Central Council.



The basic aims of the GAA strike me as being as wrothy now as they were 100 years ago, if not more so:

Basic Aim
The Association is a National organisation
which has as its basic aim the strengthening of
the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland
through the preservation and promotion of
Gaelic Games and pastimes.

National Games
The Association shall promote and control the
National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football,
Handball and Rounders, and such other games,
as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual
Congress.



I am a soccer fan and a hurling fan, I don't think that allowing soccer to be played in Croke Park is a sell-out as the Irish soccer team has given the nation more moments of emotional unity and sense of nationhood than any GAA match ever played. But I do hope the GAA continue to promote all aspects of Irish culture, it is too valuable too lose.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

You're obviously not an accountant :D :D

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No I'm not :D hope you have not offended all the accountants on here though :D If truth be known the grants went from Dunnes to the government (well one minister anyway)

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

wasn't there a professional boxing match there too, decades ago?

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Mohammed Ali fought Al 'Blue' Lewis in CP in July 1972. Ali won in the 11th round. This fight was promoted by Butty Sugrue, a well known 'larger than life' character who hailed from Killorgin in Kerry and who was based in London.

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Originally Posted by Seamuslawless

Does anyone know how the GAA got around rule 42 to allow american football to be played in Croke Park ? :confused:

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Have to assume that AF is not considered to be 'in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association', as Soccer and Rugby are.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Have to assume that AF is not considered to be 'in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association', as Soccer and Rugby are.

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i.e. it wasn't (perceived as) British :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

National Games
The Association shall promote and control the
National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football,
Handball and Rounders, and such other games,
as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual
Congress.

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It this a possible solution to all our problems?

We get the the GAA to take over the running of association football in Ireland. In one fell swoop we'll get rid of the FAI and get to play in Croke Park!

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Originally Posted by fergalr

It this a possible solution to all our problems?

We get the the GAA to take over the running of association football in Ireland. In one fell swoop we'll get rid of the FAI and get to play in Croke Park!

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Best post of the day by a mile. You should apply when the CEO job goes to open call... :)

:D PP

[QUOTE=Donal81]Unlike the IRFU, though, the FAI doesn't pay players, does it?
QUOTE]
Do players on senior international duty get paid? I thought they did, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if Bohs or Cork or whoever didn't have to play their players they could invest much more of their income into facilities and build a super stadium for themsleves.