UEFA fine?

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I'm a journalist so freedom of expression is something that I not only value but believe to be essential to my profession so do not tell me that's what I'm attempting to do.

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But once you establish the principle that some type of booing is ok and some not where does it end, this is football we are talking about here and far worse behaviour than booing goes on, EG questioning the refs parentage etc would you object to that too?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

But once you establish the principle that some type of booing is ok and some not where does it end, this is football we are talking about here and far worse behaviour than booing goes on, EG questioning the refs parentage etc would you object to that too?

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Where does it end? It ends when you're booing for reasons other than football reasons. Booing a guy because he plays for a club that has a rivalry with another club that is associated with Ireland in general. Again, I think you're being pedantic here in that you're condoning such behaviour on the basis that it's a human right - although you don't partake in it - but ignoring overwhelming evidence, e.g. mindless booing of players such as Lovenkrans - he was booed when he eventually came on - who have absolutely nothing to do with Cromwell, occupation, Irish emigration and thus feeding into and supporting what is a miserable, grotty dispute between two sets of bigots in Glasgow who are hundreds of miles and years removed from Northern Ireland.

Far worse behaviour than booing goes on but is that a defence of booing a Rangers player? You'll have to do better than that, mate. I played football for years and have gone to football matches for years - I'm not just pontificating but I hate seeing things that bring down the tone of a game of ball. Am I out of order/a "self-appointed moral guardian"/PC peddler just for saying that some level of common deceny should apply to it? If a player dives like Pires, boo away and I'll do it with you. If a player is cheating, fine. If a ref makes a terrible decision, booing is completely within order. Booing some random punter from Dennmark or Croatia or Macedonia or Scotland because he has the nerve to play for a successful club is out of order.

Did elements of the Windsor Park support have the right to chant "UVF Trick or Treat," boo Alan Kernaghan or make monkey noises whenever Terry Phelan or Paul McGrath touched the ball? The trick or treat and monkey noises are far worse than what we're talking about but the booing of Kernaghan? That's the exact same thing. Did they have the right?

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Far worse behaviour than booing goes on but is that a defence of booing a Rangers player? You'll have to do better than that, mate.

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No and I did not say it was a defence, now your putting words in my mouth. At this point I think its best to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

No and I did not say it was a defence, now your putting words in my mouth. At this point I think its best to agree to disagree.

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Why did you use it as part of your argument then, as if the fact that worse things happen excuses this kind of booing? Actually, I agree, let's leave it.

To all readers I apologise for starting this thread - I had no intention of reopening the booing debate.

All I wanted to know if what Dessie said on the RTE news was true - were we fined or not? If we were not fined is nobody else a bit concerned that this falsehood gets read out over our national airwaves?

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Why did you use it as part of your argument then, as if the fact that worse things happen excuses this kind of booing? Actually, I agree, let's leave it.

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I repeat I did not say anything of the sort, you are mis representing what i said.
This is my last word on this subject

Cowboy, you ignored several questions central to my point that I asked you and picked on parts that were irrelevant. That is my last word.

A lot of ex and current ManU players get booed by the England crowd at underage and senior matches.

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Originally Posted by davros

Yer big into the Palestine thing.....is that & Israel,not 'sectarian' :confused: ..... :rolleyes: or they both just misunderstood?!

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I dislike Israel as a state because of its actions, not for religious reasons. I don't dislike individual Israeli's either, I dislike the actions of the state.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Thats a bit extreme. I see at the top of your own post it says "Location: HATING $H€LBOURNE FC GLOBALLY" is this also part of this "vile sectarianism" ?

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sectarianism relates to religion. I don't hate shels because of religious grounds :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Éanna

sectarianism relates to religion. I don't hate shels because of religious grounds :rolleyes:

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Your obsession with Shelbourne is reaching biblical proportions at this stage in fairness Éanna ;)

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Originally Posted by davros

Whereas yours is entirely rational....... ;)

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if football fans were rational, it would be a boring world and this forum wouldn't be worth looking at :)

I am sure Spain will be getting a fine from UEFA after the disgusting behaviour of some of their fans in the match against England last night. I was really hoping Wright-Philips would score just to stick it up to them.

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Originally Posted by Dotsy

I am sure Spain will be getting a fine from UEFA after the disgusting behaviour of some of their fans in the match against England last night. I was really hoping Wright-Philips would score just to stick it up to them.

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It was pretty appalling alright, very sad to hear.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

It was pretty appalling alright, very sad to hear.

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Nothing like a bit of football culture, eh Cowboy? I suppose those Spanish fans have a right to express themselves in that way. I would disagree but I'm a self-appointed moral guardian so I'll keep my PC nonsense to myself. Sorry, I know I said I'd said my last word but this is too much of a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Nothing like a bit of football culture, eh Cowboy? I suppose those Spanish fans have a right to express themselves in that way. I would disagree but I'm a self-appointed moral guardian so I'll keep my PC nonsense to myself. Sorry, I know I said I'd said my last word but this is too much of a coincidence.

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I had said my last word but this is really too much to let go. When did i ever say that racism was an acceptable part of football culture , it never has been and thankfully never will be.

I see no point in debating with you further as you clearly have some other agenda going on.

Racist chanting is totally unacceptable and if you had any decency you would withdraw your remarks.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

I had said my last word but this is really too much to let go. When did i ever say that racism was an acceptable part of football culture , it never has been and thankfully never will be.

You really are a moron and i see no point in debating with you as you clearly have some other agenda going on.

Racist chanting is totally unacceptable and if you had any decency you would withdraw your remarks.

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I will not withdraw my remark. You based your entire argument that supporters have a right to boo someone because they play for Rangers and that expressing themselves was their right. I was in the wrong, apparently, for suggesting that people don't have a right to exploit this right. That's exactly what those scum were doing last night. What's the real difference between bigotry and racism? One is mindless hatred of religion based on history, the other is skin colour. You condone bigoted booing but condemn racist chanting. Not only that, but you called my problem with booing PC nonsense so your moron remark doesn't hold much water, either.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I will not withdraw my remark. You based your entire argument that supporters have a right to boo someone because they play for Rangers and that expressing themselves was their right. I was in the wrong, apparently, for suggesting that people don't have a right to exploit this right. That's exactly what those scum were doing last night. What's the real difference between bigotry and racism? One is mindless hatred of religion based on history, the other is skin colour. You condone bigoted booing but condemn racist chanting. Not only that, but you called my problem with booing PC nonsense so your moron remark doesn't hold much water, either.

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I do not and never have condoned bigoted booing. At half time some EL fans booed some of the montly award winners from teams they did not support, are they bigots too? I think not.

BTW all the rangers fans I know seem to have much less of a problem with booing that you do

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

I do not and never have condoned bigoted booing. At half time some EL fans booed some of the montly award winners from teams they did not support, are they bigots too? I think not.

BTW all the rangers fans I know seem to have much less of a problem with booing that you do

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You are quite wrong there, Cowboy, you did condone bigoted booing when you condoned the booing of football players for whatever reason. My point was that I didn't think it was right to boo a player simply because he played for Rangers - a booing that is based on a bigoted premise - and you're point was that booing was part of football culture. I quote - "Listen player's have been booed for tens of years its part of football culture , keep yopur PC nonsense to your self."

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Originally Posted by Donal81

You are quite wrong there, Cowboy, you did condone bigoted booing when you condoned the booing of football players for whatever reason. My point was that I didn't think it was right to boo a player simply because he played for Rangers - a booing that is based on a bigoted premise - and you're point was that booing was part of football culture. I quote - "Listen player's have been booed for tens of years its part of football culture , keep yopur PC nonsense to your self."

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quite obviously you are taking my words out of context as we were discussing the booing of a rangers player, you brought in the bigotry element. you assume that such booing must be bigoted, i do not assume to know the motives of those who do it even though I do not agree with it myself.

I notice you have not replied to my question about the EL fans booing at half time.

You condone booing of referees (admittedly for a bad decison) but what if someone at the game decided you were booing becuse the referee was protestant or black would you accept such a persons judgement that you were a bigot or racist?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

quite obviously you are taking my words out of context as we were discussing the booing of a rangers player, you brought in the bigotry element. you assume that such booing must be bigoted, i do not assume to know the motives of those who do it even though I do not agree with it myself.

I notice you have not replied to my question about the EL fans booing at half time.

You condone booing of referees (admittedly for a bad decison) but what if someone at the game decided you were booing becuse the referee was protestant or black would you accept such a persons judgement that you were a bigot or racist?

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You didn't respond to plenty of my questions Cowboy, especially the one about the booing of Alan Kernaghan in Windsor Park. I didn't respond because the answer is quite obvious - EL fans were booing for EL reasons. I don't follow the EL that much but I'll assume that it had to do with rivalry between clubs. I don't like it but that very much comes with the territory. You seem to be struggling with the concept that expressing disapproval through booing is quite different from expressing bigotry or racism through booing or making monkey noises.

The Celtic-Rangers rivalry - and, by extension, the Ireland-Rangers rivalry - is quite different from EL and if you don't wish to recognise that, I don't know what planet you're living on. If I booed a black player for diving or a terrible black referee, it would be quite obvious that it was for football reasons in that I wasn't doing it from the start of the match and I wasn't hurling abuse each time he touched the ball or blew his whistle. If someone had a problem with that and accused me of being racist, they're being unreasonable and that's the PC gone mad thing that you rightly have a problem with.

If you don't assume to know the motives of a crowd booing a player from the start when he's the only player on the pitch who plays for Rangers and the only one getting booed, you're being ridiculous. Why else are they booing him? It's unreasonable to assume that they're booing him for bigoted reasons? When Ireland play Croatia next time and Prso happens to start, if he's the only one getting booed from the start to the end, I'll assume it's because he plays for Rangers and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my assumption.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

You didn't respond to plenty of my questions Cowboy, especially the one about the booing of Alan Kernaghan in Windsor Park. I didn't respond because the answer is quite obvious - EL fans were booing for EL reasons. I don't follow the EL that much but I'll assume that it had to do with rivalry between clubs.

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what you mean like celtic and Rangers?

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I don't like it but that very much comes with the territory. You seem to be struggling with the concept that expressing disapproval through booing is quite different from expressing bigotry or racism through booing or making monkey noises.

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You seem to be struggling with the concept that booing a rangers player is not necessarily bigotry (not all rangers players are protestant)
Are you also implying I am racist as you seem to confuse the two issues

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Originally Posted by Donal81

The Celtic-Rangers rivalry - and, by extension, the Ireland-Rangers rivalry - is quite different from EL and if you don't wish to recognise that, I don't know what planet you're living on. If I booed a black player for diving or a terrible black referee, it would be quite obvious that it was for football reasons in that I wasn't doing it from the start of the match and I wasn't hurling abuse each time he touched the ball or blew his whistle. If someone had a problem with that and accused me of being racist, they're being unreasonable and that's the PC gone mad thing that you rightly have a problem with.

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ah now at last you have grasped what I am talking about, who decides when its right and when its wrong

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Originally Posted by Donal81

If you don't assume to know the motives of a crowd booing a player from the start when he's the only player on the pitch who plays for Rangers and the only one getting booed, you're being ridiculous. Why else are they booing him? It's unreasonable to assume that they're booing him for bigoted reasons? When Ireland play Croatia next time and Prso happens to start, if he's the only one getting booed from the start to the end, I'll assume it's because he plays for Rangers and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in my assumption.

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They are booing him because he is rangers just as the EL fans booed their opposition, why do you say one is bigotry and the other not, you seem to want to have it very way IE decide for others when its acceptable and when not. And please leave aside the racism issue it has nothing to do with the topic, I resent your inference that my poistion is condonig racist booing and I ask you again to withdraw those remarks

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

They are booing him because he is rangers just as the EL fans booed their opposition, why do you say one is bigotry and the other not, you seem to want to have it very way IE decide for others when its acceptable and when not. And please leave aside the racism issue it has nothing to do with the topic, I resent your inference that my poistion is condonig racist booing and I ask you again to withdraw those remarks

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If you think that the Celtic-Rangers rivalry is the same as Shels and St.Pats, you are ignoring history and what's in front of your eyes just to make a point. If you think people boo Rangers players because of your standard football rivalry, you're being ridiculous. The racism issue does indeed have something to do with the topic as, once again, you asserted that booing, of whatever sort, is an expression of opinion and I was wrong for attempting to curb that. As you said, "what you attempt to do is take away others rights to express an opinion ( ie booing) however misguided the expression may be." Below this, you say you object to racist booing. What's the difference?

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Originally Posted by Donal81

If you think that the Celtic-Rangers rivalry is the same as Shels and St.Pats, you are ignoring history and what's in front of your eyes just to make a point. If you think people boo Rangers players because of your standard football rivalry, you're being ridiculous. The racism issue does indeed have something to do with the topic as, once again, you asserted that booing, of whatever sort, is an expression of opinion and I was wrong for attempting to curb that. As you said, "what you attempt to do is take away others rights to express an opinion ( ie booing) however misguided the expression may be." Below this, you say you object to racist booing. What's the difference?

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you are really being ridiculous as its clear for all to see that I never included racist chanting or booing as an expression of opinion (which it is not anyway its just hatred) BTW how do you know I was talking about pats or shels fans, once again you make unwarranted assumptions about my comments.

For whatever resaon you ascribe views to me which I simply do not hold so for your benefit i will re iterate the following:

I do not and have never condoned supported or otherwise engaged in racist or sectarian chanting and/or booing

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

you are really being ridiculous as its clear for all to see that I never included racist chanting or booing as an expression of opinion (which it is not anyway its just hatred) BTW how do you know I was talking about pats or shels fans, once again you make unwarranted assumptions about my comments.

For whatever resaon you ascribe views to me which I simply do not hold so for your benefit i will re iterate the following:

I do not and have never condoned supported or otherwise engaged in racist or sectarian chanting and/or booing

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Firstly, instead of replying to the point I made about Shels v Pats and Celtic v Rangers, you ignore it. I didn't know that you were talking about Pats or Shels, it was an example of a footballing rivalry. This wasn't an unwarranted assumption about your comments and I don't see how you could construe it

So racist chanting or booing isn't an expression of opinion? An expression of hatred isn't an expression of opinion? That's rubbish and a blatant paradox.

If you don't believe that booing is an expression of opinion why did you say it, then? "What you attempt to do is take away others rights to express an opinion ( ie booing) however misguided the expression may be." Could you explain that, please.

no I will not explain it as you twist everything I say and ignore the comments that you do not have an answer for, childish in the extreme. Its pointless debating with you so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

Been following this big barney here between cowboy and donal and i have to agree with Donal and i'll tell you why, I went to the Ireland Denmark game before the WC 2002 and i wore the away WC 1994 jersey and my friend wore his celtic jersey, a scumbag came to us and said to my friend that the celtic jersey was the best in the world, i said (with a few sank already) that the away 1994 Irish WC jersey was better, he didn't take kiny to it and started calling me a hun and went on and on and on about me being a hun and a traitor. its that type of chap and his type that will boo a rangers player who plays with georgia or denmark or who ever it is,how sad it is. not because he simply plays with a rival club, but its down to the catholic V protestant crap that comes into football at the best of times when ireland celtic and rangers are in close proximity to each other. i find it a disgrace when irish fans boo a rangers player playing for his country. Anyway if mr. scumbag can boo me i'm sure he'll do the same to a rangers player playing for his country !

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

no I will not explain it as you twist everything I say and ignore the comments that you do not have an answer for, childish in the extreme. Its pointless debating with you so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

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That's rich coming from you, mate. I have responded to any comments you asked me to but you've ignored many of the ones I asked you to comment on so give me a break. To be honest, giving that reason for not explaining a comment that seems to contradict your last couple of posts sounds like a politician speaking, "I won't explain it because you'll twist it and it's pointless debating with you..." Come off it. You say on one hand that booing is an expression of opinion. On the other hand, you say that it's not and it's just hatred. Which is it? Oh sorry, I'm being childish again in asking you to clarify another blatant contradiction. Don't give me that line, it's politico speak and complete boll*cks and you know it. I've no problem in agreeing to disagree but not when you won't explain a contradiction while calling me childish (add that to the moron you called me earlier).

I'm sorry you had this experience, this guy was obviously a jack ass

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Originally Posted by Colm55

Been following this big barney here between cowboy and donal and i have to agree with Donal and i'll tell you why, I went to the Ireland Denmark game before the WC 2002 and i wore the away WC 1994 jersey and my friend wore his celtic jersey, a scumbag came to us and said to my friend that the celtic jersey was the best in the world, i said (with a few sank already) that the away 1994 Irish WC jersey was better, he didn't take kiny to it and started calling me a hun and went on and on and on about me being a hun and a traitor. its that type of chap and his type that will boo a rangers player who plays with georgia or denmark or who ever it is,how sad it is. not because he simply plays with a rival club, but its down to the catholic V protestant crap that comes into football at the best of times when ireland celtic and rangers are in close proximity to each other. i find it a disgrace when irish fans boo a rangers player playing for his country. Anyway if mr. scumbag can boo me i'm sure he'll do the same to a rangers player playing for his country !

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Originally Posted by Donal81

I have responded to any comments you asked me

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no you have not but as I've said can we move on? we are not going to reach agreement so whats the point in this tit for tat posting?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

no you have not but as I've said can we move on? we are not going to reach agreement so whats the point in this tit for tat posting?

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Yes I have and you've ignored several of mine repeatedly. You can't explain a contradiction in your argument because you think I'll twist it, which is boll*cks and a cheap shot.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Yes I have and you've ignored several of mine repeatedly. You can't explain a contradiction in your argument because you think I'll twist it, which is boll*cks and a cheap shot.

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whatever, in any case i've said all i'm going to say to you

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

whatever, in any case i've said all i'm going to say to you

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A career in politics awaits...

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Originally Posted by Donal81

A career in politics awaits...

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Could be worse, perhaps a journalist who never lets the facts get in the way of a good story

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Originally Posted by davros

Now yer just being ironic ;)

Anyway,look fwd.to the day when Shels.are so powerful in the EL :eek:,They make up a no.of the national side...... :rolleyes: I'm sure their critics from the south coast & Northside will be generous fans & supporters,to a tee!

As for me,'Boo all the H*ns,that you know.........' ;)
To make up yer own mind,for one side of the arguement,see here?

Btw,Being sectarian is to be openly against someone else's belief......Booing is'neutral'..... :rolleyes: by comparison to'The B*lly Boys' or 'No Surrender'....get a grip!

It's just not a serious issue.....the next time we play the T*ns in Dublin,will be;Puts all this sh*t in perspective!

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Don't think I'll see another Ireland England competitive international at Lansdowne in my life time. I personally reckon that UEFA have a conspiracy to prevent that pairing after the disgraceful scenes at in '95.

One can't help feeling though, by 'how much' would the current Ireland team beat the current England team.

Play anything like we did against France and I would count on a relatively routine 2-0 win. I've always felt Ireland have matched up well to England (in footballing terms) during my time watching football, ours has always been the more cohesive 'team'.

I have nothing more to add to the redundant 'sectarian chanting debate'.

SKBIO-TOR

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Could be worse, perhaps a journalist who never lets the facts get in the way of a good story

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To be honest mate, I'd stop arguing, you've clearly lost. I'm laughing at your posts now...you're not even trying anymore, just making baseless comments.

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Originally Posted by Donal81

just making baseless comments.

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so a "career in politics" is not a baseless commet ? If it makes you feel better and hopefully draw this pointless tit for tat posting to an end i'll concede defeat, hopefully it will make you feel better

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

so a "career in politics" is not a baseless commet ? If it makes you feel better and hopefully draw this pointless tit for tat posting to an end i'll concede defeat, hopefully it will make you feel better

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You acted like a jaded politician so it's not a baseless comment, yours is. I feel fine as it is, mate, but concede away if you feel that you were wrong, I can assure you it won't affect my mood.