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On the first point, knowing some of them they'd also go and see their local sides. Albeit in certain cases with less enthusiasm....
As for the second, the relative club records of Scottish clubs, even if they were a 100 times better or worse, are irrelevant to the Irish national side.
Lets refocus.
1) crowd size has nothing to do with quality of football. More likely to be down to local pride and/or clever import marketing aimed at gullible fools.
2) Irish sides have a better record than all but two of the Scottish league clubs. Equivalent support (financial and general public) would spread that gap even more. A more successful league = a more attractive option = keep our young players here a few years longer = more success = viable alternative for players = bigger selection pool & control over our own international destiny.
3) you know nothing about the "Scandanavian model" but think it sounds like a great idea because we're similar in size. Jaysus.
Except you're wrong on all 3 counts.
1) Scottish people are up to 15 times more gullible and foolish than Irish soccer fans. Yeah, right. Plenty of rational logic there.
2) I vehemently dispute this as I'm sure I'm right. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, if you can show a better co-efficient by Irish clubs over Scottish ones, achieved without the contribution of Celtic and the former Rangers say, since the year 2000. Definitely not before.
Anyway, I digress. The LOI, even assuming it is financially sustainable in most cases does not have the resources for a more successful league in terms of say, just facilities.
And that's before you ignore the very small cultural issue of other sports;GAA (x2), rugby and horse-racing drawing bigger crowds.
Even assuming the clubs all had wonderful stadia of say minimum 15k capacity, they have to able to fill them...
Most would be happy/delighted with a 5k average.
And how likely is that in the current economic climate...
As for being more 'successful, 'attractive', these are just meaningless Utopian platitudes unless you can overcome the antipathy of local players to ignore the appeal of eg. Britain, whose whole system in terms of accommodating players of varying abilities is far more advanced than ours ever could be.
Simply based on almost a thousand professional/semi-professional clubs. Not to mention the option of many other EU leagues.
Similarly, the appeal to fans, in a good number of cases. Which is hardly a crime.
I hope the domestic standard of soccer in Ireland continues to improve, but it's a complete fantasy to expect even 'donkeys' like McShane & Ward to play in it regularly at the peak of their careers.
There isn't the money for starters, even from 15k crowds.
As for a 'bigger selection pool & control over own international destiny'. More fantasy.
Yeah, sure it'd be great if the FAI managed our international players full-time.
They'd all be doing a Stephen Ireland, continually dealing with those jokers.
3) It was just a suggestion. Which could work?
All small countries with not dissimilar climate and outlook. And whose coaches might see appeal in coming to Ireland (we're actually cheaper to live in!)
We can hardly expect all the Irish youth to suddenly switch on the Latin emphasis on technical skills.
Where's your suggestion, anyway? Jaysus, indeed.
You're running from the argument now. I never said it was relevant. You are the one who said Kilmarnock were much better than any LOI side despite evidence to the contrary. I took issue with that and you can't just claim the topic has been derailed to avoid defending your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Scottish people aren't the only gullible people who go to SPL games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Who cares about before 2000? Nobody said Irish clubs were better than Scottish clubs before 2000. We're talking about now, and now I can point to Motherwell, who played 4 games in Europe this year and lost 4, and Dundee United and Hearts who each played 2 and lost 1 apiece, with not a single win between them.Quote:
2) I vehemently dispute this as I'm sure I'm right. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, if you can show a better co-efficient by Irish clubs over Scottish ones, achieved without the contribution of Celtic and the former Rangers say, since the year 2000. Definitely not before.
Actually I said 'probably'. And your 'argument' isn't any better than mine. Especially re.the irish national team
And who are all the 'other' gullible people then?
Lastly, you have to have some sort of benchmark to make any valid comparison. And some relative criteria in terms of the teams played. As in the Scottish clubs played higher-ranked sides than the Irish ones.
But don't let that cloud your vision of how 'wonderful' Irish club soccer currently is...
I didn't make an argument re: the Irish national team so I'm hardly surprised it's no better than yours. You said Kilmarnock were 'probably' better than every Irish team which is still patently untrue. Saying 'probably' doesn't make your point any better. Kilmarnock are 'probably' better than Barcelona. Hey, you can't argue with me, I said probably!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The thousands of Irish people who fly to Glasgow every weekend.Quote:
And who are all the 'other' gullible people then?
This season, yeah, mainly due to the fact all the clubs were bumped one spot above their station owing to Rangers' demotion. In previous years, no. Shamrock Rovers played FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Spurs and Rubin last year - all sides with recent Champions League experience.Quote:
Lastly, you have to have some sort of benchmark to make any valid comparison. And some relative criteria in terms of the teams played. As in the Scottish clubs played higher-ranked sides than the Irish ones.
But don't let that cloud your vision of how 'wonderful' Irish club soccer currently is...
So if you didn't make an argument, why are you even 'contributing' then?
Still reckon even Kilmarnock are better;no-one's presented any credible evidence to counteract this. Just largely one-eyed opinion.
What 'thousands'? If you want to concentrate on the now, need to check your facts...
And fair play to Shams getting to the group stages, but one year out of how many? Given a good number of those years it was virtually impossible for them to get anywhere near Europe, given their league position was so poor...
Because you made a silly comment about football.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You've presented no credible evidence to support it other than the fact Celtic and Rangers are better than Irish sides. We know this already, however it doesn't make Kilmarnock or any other Scottish side vicariously better, particularly when the factual evidence, i.e. head to head meetings, suggests Irish sides tend to triumph.Quote:
Still reckon even Kilmarnock are better;no-one's presented any credible evidence to counteract this. Just largely one-eyed opinion.
I was a bit overeager in my estimate, but surely between Rangers and Celtic it is in the hundreds.Quote:
What 'thousands'? If you want to concentrate on the now, need to check your facts...
One year more than Hearts and Dundee United. And Kilmarnock :)Quote:
And fair play to Shams getting to the group stages, but one year out of how many? Given a good number of those years it was virtually impossible for them to get anywhere near Europe, given their league position was so poor...
It's no big secret that the 'other' SPL clubs don't do well in European competition, it would be a good season if a few draws were picked up, they just don't seem to bother about it so much (unless they get an English team). I don't think that it's a good slide rule to judge the standard of the 'other' SPL teams compared to the LOI clubs.
The SPL football standard is higher than the LOI, not a lot higher but higher all the same. That's my opinion, based on watching both on TV.
One indicator, a recent Scottish national squad for a friendly had 7 players from 'other' SPL clubs, the u21 competitive squad had 9 of them.
If any LOI club had the same facilities as say Kilmarnock, re training, income, stadium, with players on a FT contract, I'd have little doubt they would improve all round.
The thread issue is about Trap and an assessment of how he has managed the player resources as it exists to him. I assume he has all the facilities he needs to manage the squad. The fact that those players are all abroad is a concern, but not Trap's concern.
That's a fair post and makes more sense than those by others, besides myself, that preceded it.
Because of far higher investment, grounds and facilities in Ireland have a long way to go compared to a good number of other European countries with similar size populations or even similar levels of club football.
However it comes down to using raw talent, based on competition with other sports which in the case of soccer is quite tough. And tends to be a bit cyclical at best for small countries. As in far better leagues can have even worse international sides...
Also to do with the current coaching regimes & organisation of youth football by provincial FA & the FAI which would know much less about, but that's where any changes would happen and would take at least 10 years to have any great effect.
Don't know of any great leadership or even desire to change, coming from even senior clubs, whose priorities I suspect are mainly survival, both sporting and financial...
Can we get this thread back on topic? The title of the thread is "End of year assessment of Trap's Ireland".
Yes but there was a big issue/question raised by the OP about the role of the LOI in the future of the Irish international team. It only got derailed by, as Charlie put it so brilliantly, a silly comment by ArdeeBhoy about football.
As opposed to silly comments, by people who know feck all about football...
Yes, 'brilliant', beyond comparison.
Says the guy who thinks crowd size equals quality. Good lhad yourself.
Stu is just going stir crazy with no NHL.
The last few comments (#53 & #54) are precisely why I asked that the thread get back on topic.
If you want to trade insults, then PM each other. Let's talk about Trap and where we're going.
Except the thread is largely pointless in its inception...
It needed 5 posts and then to be locked.
Glad you have seen the errors of your ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Actually, yours was one of them.
;)
Maybe we can get things back to normal by discussing Anne Hathaway.....Attractive or not? When she let go with her girly bits the other day it was like an accident on the highway....I couldnt look away yet I knew I should. (Shudders).
I don't know why you think they don't seem to bother. They have no hope of winning the domestic league so European football is about as glamorous as it gets, plus European qualification is easy money if you're good enough - fact is, Scottish clubs aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotlan...Recent_playersQuote:
The SPL football standard is higher than the LOI, not a lot higher but higher all the same. That's my opinion, based on watching both on TV.
One indicator, a recent Scottish national squad for a friendly had 7 players from 'other' SPL clubs, the u21 competitive squad had 9 of them.
Even so, there's no disputing the money on offer in the SPL is far in excess of that offered in Ireland. That's why fairly average LOI players like Jon Daly and Eoin Doyle are making so much more money over there. The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.
I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland.Quote:
If any LOI club had the same facilities as say Kilmarnock, re training, income, stadium, with players on a FT contract, I'd have little doubt they would improve all round.
The thread issue is about Trap and an assessment of how he has managed the player resources as it exists to him. I assume he has all the facilities he needs to manage the squad. The fact that those players are all abroad is a concern, but not Trap's concern.
Agreed 100%. Scotland is miles ahead of Ireland in terms of infrastructure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Except that there are numerous foreign internationals who've played in the SPL in recent years and even now, a fact conspicuous by their absence generally in say Irish or Welsh domestic soccer.Quote:
The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.
There have been plenty of foreign internationals in Ireland over the years. They invariably end up in leagues that offer more money but are no better. I'm sure the SPL is very proud of all its Lithuanian and Latvian internationals but that doesn't make it a great league.
Aye, but not just from there.
Anyway, they go to these leagues, not just for money, but perceived status and success including the clubs and other players they come up against.
What other countries? Yep, players definitely go for the prestige of coming up against players like Samaras and Scott Brown.
Why not? They're probably two of the few in the SPL who're good enough (just) on their day to get an EPL gig.
You really enjoy flogging a dead horse though...
Charlie, I took the liberty of snipping your post, mainly time.
How about, the flower of Scotland isn't blooming in the pre-season. They're not good in the middle of July, fact! :)A reflection of a league's quality isn't just about getting a few results in European competition in July and early August, however it's one factor you can look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
If it was the only or even the main factor to look at, then we could say without doubt, that based on coefficient points earned from the last 2 season's 6 head to head games in the EL, the Icelandic league is moving slightly ahead of the LOI, but we know it's only about par.:)
I said my opinion on the spl league is based on watching the teams play football on tv and it's a better standard than the football played in the LOI games that I have seen on tv, all imo.
Send a question to Pat Fenlon and ask him his considered opinion about the SPL standard.
Fair enough, but 9 players from the other spl teams being in the Scottish u21 competitive squad, is decent representation. The Scots u21 team is better than Ireland's. And in the senior competitive squad, there's a good sprinkling of players who play a few seasons with the other spl clubs, before they move South.Quote:
Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotlan...Recent_players
I don't know why that is, but I'm sure it has been the subject of much debate amongst Scottish football folk. Is there a formula, that once applied will produce an exact result, that exceptional footballer out from the herd, just like those great players from the past?Quote:
I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland.
Geysir,
A lot of your latter point revolves around cyclical factors. As we all know the North, Scotland and Wales have all 'produced' world-class players like us, but whether we like it or not, they were mainly developed by English clubs, married to those individuals natural ability...
Unfortunately, there's no guarantee this will happen. It just seems to depend on random factors in the gene pool!
Rather than make a new thread, thought I'd put this in an old one. Compiled all the results (and many highlights) of Irish international fixtures from U15 up to senior level for 2012:
http://greenscene.me/2013/01/republi...-2012-results/
Jon Daly never played in the LOI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
You're right, I mean Sean Dillon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I agree that Scotland should produce more players than they do. I had a good conversation with a Scottish mate who reckoned that the decline in them producing great players was when the teachers up there stopped staying after school hours to coach the kids and that this had a massive impact on the fitness levels of Scottish kids. He also made the point that up there alot less people volunteer than they did say 20 odd years ago. He said that this alligned to places like Glasgow no longer being safe for street football has devestated Scottish football.
It is rare to see street football over here as well, but from having lived in England,there is a much higher proportion of people who volunteer and help out in clubs. In a strange way, I think that the inadequacies of those who run football in this country down the years have brought what Eamo would cal lus "football people" closer together, than maybe places like Scotland.
He played for Shelbourne in the season they last won the league, before he made the move to Scotland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
A BBC article on the move included this quote from Sean,
"I see this as a big step up from playing in the League of Ireland, both on and off the park,"
:D
Off the park, certainly. Even "full time" Shels had inferior facilities to your average GAA club.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
I live in Maryhill in the north of the city, and my normal running route takes me past two sets of football pitches. I'd say they're being used maybe 5% of the time tops. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that neds nowadays "cannae be bothered", whereas maybe a few years ago they'd not be bothered about a lot of things, but still kick around a football with their mates. Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba
Somewhere in England, John Giles' ears just pr icked up.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Yeah there is an article out today saying TV and Video games are giving kids cancer.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...itting-1523980
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
And to think... His Nanny lived on the same street as me and we would often play ball together. To think we were once at the same level. Sigh.
There is some good higher education over here as well. Football has no chance!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
And not to mention the growth in use of personal stereos by kids, like the walkman.