He might revert to 2 banks of 5 to shore things upQuote:
Originally Posted by gastric
He might revert to 2 banks of 5 to shore things upQuote:
Originally Posted by gastric
No recognisable strikers. Very like Spain that.Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
Tets and jbyrne, I was only having a light hearted dig and if you see it like this you may see the funnier side of it, as it was intended:
Danny was saying that he's in favour of Trap staying if he proves more adaptable and brings in younger players, which is what Trap was quoted as saying he'd look at. I agree, as do a fair amount here. My point is that he's got to actually follow through with this, not just feed the press with what he thinks they want to hear. I do actually think Trap will feel he has a point to prove.
And more game time for Green, McShane, O'Dea.........Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Green only got into the squad because McCarthy withdrew for personal reasons and Fahey was injuredQuote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
McShane and O'Dea had zero game tiem in the Euro's
has o'dea ever let us down anyway?
underated in my opinion
I agree, but not the future either. Capable back up for qualifiers but I think that's his limit.
The choice of Cox over Shane Long is both baffling and a poor footballing decision. Tha falling out with so many players who might have made a difference again reeks of Givenitis. Wilson at left back would have been a better footballing choice than Ward. McCarthy IMO would never have recused himself from the squad if he had been an established member of the team (which he should already have been). I can't think of one Premiership manager who would start Cox ahead of Long. The messing about of Stephen Reid again completely unnecessary. With such a small group of players to choose from we simply can't afford to be alienating so many players. And as far as the comments to the press about changing things. Its nonsense talk. Anybody who buys that well I've got a bridge to sell. The team that should and could have started against Croatia
Westwood,
O'Shea, Dunne, St Ledger, Wilson
Duff, McCarthy, Andrews, McGeady
Doyle/Walters Long
That only applies If Given was injured. Though he seems increasingly prone and even if he sticks around for the WCQ's it must be surely his last campaign.
If there's any truth in the Sunday Mirror and Paul Rowan accusations (which should be linked here, and not in some random Damien Duff tributary thread) then I think Trap's position will become untenable. The reported incidents hardly sound impluasible.
On one hand there are clear mitigants, mainly the quality of the opposition, but on the other we have:
Awful man management, I mean truly awful
Overtraining (which England's Italian fitness coach was guilty of in 2006 I think)
Outdated tactics
Lack of flexibility
Dumb substitutions
Look, I know he got us there which only Jack had ever done before but the stuff Rowan is writing makes me feel very uneasy.
It's quite a big 'If, though acknowledge valid criticisms.
But if it comes to it, we can't afford to pay him off, being the bottom line.
I'm fed up of travelling long distances to watch a mediocre team. I bet I'm hurting a lot more than Trap at the moment. It seems we are stuck with him because we're skint. When is his contract up? If it's at the end of the qualifying campaign get rid of him then, he has proved that he can get teams to finals but it would be no lose if we had someone else for the finals. Remember how he did that time with Italy? worst they've ever played at a tournament.
I was keen not to jump on any anti-Trap bandwagon after our dismal few weeks but the more I think about it, the more I think he is just not the right man for the job. All throughout the qualifications we did not look confident or like we were improving. Regardless of the opponent we rarely even tried to keep pocession. Trap's plan, and seeming his only plan, is to defend and catch teams on the break/through set-pieces. He seems to think this is our only option and it is all this team is capable of. The problem I have is that I feel the players at his disposal are capable of better. We may not have any world-beaters but Ireland rarely have had many, yet we never before set out to go into games with our tails between our legs from the offset.
If this stuff in the papers about players being (understandably) unhappy with his unwillingness to give other personnel/tactics a chance then that just makes me more fed up with the man. He showed no leadership off this pitch this summer and was devoid of any ideas when it came to tactics. Playing Cox on the wing/in midfield as a Plan B just stupid when you have better wingers and midfielder. His loyalty to some rather mediocre players (Green over Gibson v. Spain) is ridiculous. Add to that the fact he may have made a balls of things with some key young players and that just about sums up why I am very unsure he is the right man for the job now.
Having said all that, there's no doubt he will be kept on and I can only hope he now realised the need to give the younger lads a shot and maybe get the team playing more. Otherwise we might be in for a bleak couple of years.
If he's lost the dressing room, that's it.
Yep before when we qualified for something, we were optimistic, rightfully so I mean, not the usual blind fan optimism, that we would qualify for the next tournament. This time there is no real cause or hope for optimism.
My hope, which wont happen, is to keep him for the year, get over the first couple of games and get rid of him, hodgson has shown that you can take over a team with limited time and get results, though I know its a bit radical. I just think its too soon to get someone in for the september and october games. I still think he can get us a win in Kazhakstan with his crap football.
Yes, but CD makes the point briefly and clearly - if he's lost the dressing room there's no going back. That's the key for me. If I felt the players were being spoilt brats then they can fcek off but I don't think that is the case here - again, that assumes Rowan is on the money.
These factors are similarly colouring my opinion. I outlined why I voted a qualified 'yes', but I may have voted 'no' had I been aware of the issues with players. It was mentioned somewhere that senior players advised Trap to take a family holiday before deciding on his future. That is worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Here's the scan from Twitter again for the sake of convenience:
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...AQCIAIW_sD.jpg
I've tweeted Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh to see if he can provide a scan of pages 64 and 65.
Thanks - I'm not allowed photobucket here. Will look it up later at home.
I thought that was what they told Dunne to takea family a holiday before deciding on retiring?
Its all so funny how the Trapologists are now calling for Trap to resign.
SupportersFans are a fickle bunch alright.
I think given the autumn fixtures, if Trap gets 7 points from them , then he should be allowed stay on. Otherwise get rid of him, plenty of time for a new manager to come in and have a look at players, actually go to watch the team, and then hopefully still be in with a chance of qualifying. Its just sweden are always so clinical in qualifiers that we cant afford slip ups.
September 7, 2012
Kazakhstan v Republic of Ireland
October 12, 2012
Republic of Ireland v Germany
October 16, 2012
Faroe Islands v Republic of Ireland
7 points is more than doable, considering a home tie against Germany.
Oh Paul, you're a visionary.
Who exactly was a Trapologist anyway?
I don't need to embarass anyone here stutts, we all know, and they should know too.
You for a start :P Ah no you weren't as blinded by the bright lights to be fair.
Perhaps I misread it, but was nearly sure it was in relation to Trap. Not sure where it was now.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
New factors have come to light though. I'm not exactly calling for him to resign now, but these factors are worth bringing into consideration. The whole squad demanded a rest-day due to the intensive training regime, Gibson is considering his international future, McClean described the experience as "a shambles" and Stephen Hunt was apparently in tears as he "stormed out" (to the team bus, presumably). Hunt had been promised game-time by Trap. If Trap has lost the dressing room and the players' issues are valid, it's difficult to see how he might be able to continue.Quote:
Its all so funny how the Trapologists are now calling for Trap to resign.
SupportersFans are a fickle bunch alright.
Wow why do people now care what the palyers think? They didn't before hand and scoffed at Hunt throwing a tantrum in Dublin? Seriously that really p1sses me off. People said MCgeady was a professional player and should be well able for the training. Now everyones attitude has changed. I couldn't give a sh1te about hunt not playing, he wouldn't have made a difference players aren't there to feed their egos or to get game time like an u12s match. McClean has just joined the squad he should keep schtum.
What did worry me from the start though is everyones horn for the leetle details and thought how great Trap was and right he was for ousting "percerived trouble makers", his system was very rigid, lads had long seasons behind htem and yet little time for rest or a break(with family etc) before the tournament. I think Hodgson got that side of things spot on to be honest. ALl this perparation and crap, and it did absolutely nothing, actually not true, it seems to have ****ed a large number of the squad off and alienated potential star players for the future.
Also mentioned that all the time, when there seemed to be trouble between Trap and players, and people said it was just miscommunication or nothing happening, some feared that it would come to a head, i Think that time has now arrived.
Paul, I stated my exact historical opinion of Trap quite clearly last week and I think you decided to ignore it. Some here always see things as simple black or white. I was glass half full on Trap nearly all the time, whereas you seem to be always glass virtually empty (I think that was literally the case in Poland :)).
I quoted Keynes here recently: "When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do sir?" though it has since been brought to my attention that Churchill said it first so I'm less inclined to use it now! But that's what I've done - updated my opinion based on updated events. More evidence (or accusation, more accurately) of woeful man management is turning me right against him.
Keano for Kazakhstan (half in jest, half in despair).
Wow, I don't think I've ever read two paragraphs written by the same person that contradict each other as much as those two do.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I don't think its updated events, i think its the results - which some people felt was the inevitable, and proved so at the Euros - and now these same events that were occuring throughout his tenure are no longer being ignored but to back the points at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I didn't contradict myself, I'm speaking from the viewpoint, why do people now care about the players side of things, when it didn't matter before,it was more of a rhetorical question.
yes the glass virtually empty was definitely true - as my embarassing moment on Craig Doyle showed after the Italy game :D
But who said the players' side of things didn't matter before?
The evidence was that some players were taking the p1ss with regard to behaviour and turning up when it suited them. Trap was right to assert his authority. But nobody was unconcerned with man management and communication issues.
When a manager loses the dressing room it's almost always the end. Had Trap lost the dressing room before Euro 2012 and the preparation in Dublin? I doubt it. Therefore I do think it's updated events.
If it was only the results I wouldn't be that fussed, they were hardly unexpected.
So Paul, we only have 6 points after 3 games, assume we lose at home to Germany. Are you praying that Trap Resigns or are you putting your hand in your pocket to help Denis and the FAI pay him off?......or perhaps you will shift your forthright views (As Sweden dropped points away to the Faroes). What was it Churchill said.......
EDIT.
Stutts stop even joking about Keane as manager its unnerving me.
Question for ye all. How many great players have become great managers over the years?
I can think of plenty of examples of very ordinary players (if indeed some of them made the grade) that are/were great managers. Stein, Ferguson, Mourhino some obvious examples. Could you put Wenger in that category? probably 5 or 6 years ago...less so now.
King Kenny (a great player) was a great manager (achieved great success) at Liverpool/Blackburn. Not so at Newcastle,Celtic.
Is Royston destined never to be a great manager?
What was Cruyffs managerial record like? think he had some bust ups with club boards I recall not sure how he did honours wise. Rinus Michels played for Ajax but only 5 international caps (thanks wiki).
Would like some examples if you have any? (a bit off topic I know)
We will fight them on the beaches?
Loads of people stutts, the point is this, there have been KPIs throughout traps tenure, that he was falling out with players, and his man(mis-)-management was atrocious, whether its trouble makers or players not showing up, or trap getting players confused. It all resulted generally in the same thing, a big hulabaloo with loads of people second guessing, and then the usual suspects saying it was being read the wrong way and nothing was wrong, happy boat sailing to the promised land.
So lets take the McGeady and Gibson and Hunt thing, i read before i left that gibson had been disciplined for going to meet friends/family when he was supposed to be in the team hotel, I read on here that "Mcgeady is a paid professional" etc etc and that he should be well used to training - even though it now appears after watching Ireland stagger around over 3 games that they were tired, they were sluggish, they were over-worked. Hunt throwing a strop during the bosnia game, everyone was saying to cop on. So why change the attitude towards trap and his player mis-management, when there have been key signs, and rumptions in the past? Other than the fact that we lost 3 games badly, I don't see why the attitudes have changed? Its hardly because McClean has come out and said something, as he is the only other player to come out and complain or at least that we know about. These were things people agreed with before hte tournament, and were apparent before and will be long after with Traps management. So why care now, other than we were crap and people are realising that the whole campaign was a shambles? From results, to leetle details, to training, to socialising? You reap what you sow.
Funny I thought we looked so fresh and up for it against Bosnia.
Do you think perhaps that if someone is so good in one position, that they don't have to work as hard, naturally at least, and therefore they don't have focus on other positions, only their own. Whereas those who are average players have a better understanding of overall positions and tactics etc. Its a simplistic view, but i'd imagine intelligence also plays a factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Junior honest, not fortright. I just hate the way people can be fickle about things when indicators are there from the start. But to be honest, if we were to get 7 points from those 3 games, I really don't think in the next few months we could get someone in who could return better results than Trap. I do certianly think longer term we could though. Look trap could adopt a 451 in the near future and employ our best players in our best positions and all will be backing Trap again - i dont believe he will completely remove the shackles or change his principles but change in personnell for sure.
To quote a once great manager "the faroes, they will create problems for many teams".
You've lost me a bit there POS
I am guessing half that post is for another thread and the other half means "Yes, I would put my hand in my pocket to help pay off Traps contract but Im praying we get those 7 points because I have a stag to go on and the rent needs paying etc.etc..etc.."
Well I've stated my view and it's not fickle one jot. An indicator is one thing, a definitive fact is yet another.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Its all shades of Berti Vogts with Scotland. And Delaney said in yesterdays inteview with the Indo that he would be sitting down with Trap to go over things. What exactly is Delaney going to tell Trap? You must pick such and such a player. This is all going to end in tears and sooner than I thought.
that's what I read also.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
By the way, I don't think he deserves any more time with this team. And like you, Paul, I'm beginning to feel vindicated about the reservations I've had since his first squad and press conference that he was not the man for as he just never rated us. I've caught a few waves since then but overall that gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach just refused to go away.
Also, we need a man-manager, with in-depth knowledge of our players pool and good communication skills. Stutts, I did complain quite vocally at the times you mention above about Traps massive failings in this regard.
(ignoring the trap compensation issue), McCarthy for 2014?
Yes, I appreciate that you've always been quite consistyent actually.
The flops at these championships will be replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly
We got to our first tournament in 10 years, were put in a very difficult group, and got the results people expected from that group. Before then, we lost 2 games in 24, and moved 20-30 places up the rankings under this coach. There is no need for radical surgery on the coaching side.
Hodgson with his far superior players, is still in the tournament obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
We are more than capable of going to Kazachstan and getting the points, and the Faroes as well. That's at least 6 points won before the trip to Sweden.
Remind me what tournaments he qualified them for again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Look, I've veered towards glass half empty now based on my interpretation of Euro 2012 events and more importantly the Rowan stuff which might well just be scurrilous hearsay. For example, I was in Sopot and thought the hotel was sufficiently far away from the main strip to be quiet and away from the fans' drinking but Rowan says otherwise. But the Rowan stuff is what has tipped me to half empty, and a bit beyond. Trap appears to have made a balls of the post-qualification phase.
The fact that his qualification record was relatively emphatic was what kept me the other side. If he has lost the dressing room the chances of a good qualification campaign are massively reduced.
Who could we get in to replace him? Mick McCarthy ? I really don't see that going well. In the cold light of day he didn't get us to France 98, didn't get us to Holland/Belgium 2000 and played a big part in us not getting to Euro 2004. He probably had a better team than the current one with both Keanes, Duff and Given being at their best and being World Class players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Feck, I'd rather have had John Maynard Keynes as Ireland manager than the other eejit you suggest...