How depressed are you?

[QUOTE=There are plenty of technically strong players coming out of Ireland - not as many as other countries - but they tend to get it coached out of them in order to improve their chances of succeeding in the agricultural leagues nextdoor.[/QUOTE]

Whether there are plenty of technically strong players or not in Iteland I don't know. I don't see them coming through. But I will agree that the English game does tend to coach it out of them. It's beginning to change in England with the influx of foreigners, and not before its time.

Still disappointed but tend to look for sources of optimism. Before our kick-off in the tournament I had gear changes ranging from optimism to pessimism and unfortunately the pessimism view came to pass.
On sources of optimism, the team was being written after losing to France in Croke Park. We hadn't a chance we were being told nor did many expect but we had that heroic performance before being cruelly denied. A month prior to that, we put up a good showing against Italy and possibly should have won. Irish teams have had habits of delivering when not expected, they've done the opposite as well mind. It's a big ask for Thursday night, the task is huge as well as the amount of luck required. The S.Indo called it right that Spain would give opportunities to be attacked. Italy did that. Even when being trying to be optimistic, it's hard to see how we will attack Spain. Still though, with all the pessimism in mind, which is probably realism, I'll definitely be hoping for the best on Thursday and possibly a miracle. We've had nights where things have gone horribly wrong, more so that what happened against Croatia. Hopefully not on Thursday. Portugal away towards the end of Jack Charlton stands out as a bad night, Holland in the play-off went according to negative expectations. Spain away in qualifying stands out positively in some respects, the game in Lansdowne Road did not. Spain racing into a 3 goal lead that night. Better be none of that on Thursday.

http://jalopnik.com/5917286/i-witnes...cue-last-night

Close call for Irish fans in New York City. Why anyone no matter how drunk would fool around by the subway tracks is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by boysingreen

Another part that ****es me off is Croatia is the smallest country in the tournament; we're the second smallest. So we've managed to be manhandled (physically, technically, tactically) by the only team w/ a smaller talent pool, obliterating the "small country punching above our weight" angle that normally takes a bit of the edge off the pain. We're the oldest team in the tournament, where were the cool heads and composure that come with experience? Where the hell did this great belief in the camp go that we've been hearing about for weeks?

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I could be wrong but I don't think the Croatians have competition from sports as strongly followed and participated as GAA and Rugby. There are some seriously talented football stars in this country that when push comes to shove at a young age decide to go down the route of GAA or Rugby and also a large portion of footballers who get brought to England and get sent home after a few months or a year end up packing in football thinking they have missed their chance or will never make it.

The FAI does not protect or nurture talent in this country and depend too much on the English clubs to do it for them. Kids are now starting to be coached properly in Ireland at a much younger age but are still sent over to the UK with high hopes as soon as they hit 16 or 17. The quality players that have come through or are coming through for Ireland now are the ones that have done it the hard way, McClean, Coleman, Fahy, Ward, Doyle as a few examples and not to mention Hoolahan. The FAI will still refuse to acknowledge this though and will stick to what they have always done. The likes of Croatia on the other hand would not let this happen their players.

Until something is done to stop teams from the UK taking our best young players, using them and sending them home when they are surplus to requirements the sooner we will stop being forever reliant on a few hopefuls making the break through over there to supply our senior international team.

Croatia and the rest of the Balkans have plenty of competition from other sports to football. Basketball, Tennis, Winter Sports, etc.

The difference in football is they have the facilities that we don't. As regards the general public though, crowds are not great, as Serie A is on their doorstep and followed like the EPL is here.

Still though, we played them when they were third in the world and beat them. The result last night was the first such result since injury time in 1999.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Still though, we played them when they were third in the world and beat them. The result last night was the first such result since injury time in 1999.

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If you remember they had nine players and we had 11.

Aside from that, the point here is that Croatia have actually coached their kids to play the correct way. No John O'Shea's or Stephen Wards and even Richard Dunne, who just hoof the ball long at every opportunity.

We are all about playing the 100 mile an hour game in Ireland, slaves to the English model. As one poster said earlier, things are beginning to change as far as coaching the kids properly. The sooner the better.

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Originally Posted by Jofspring

The FAI does not protect or nurture talent in this country and depend too much on the English clubs to do it for them. Kids are now starting to be coached properly in Ireland at a much younger age but are still sent over to the UK with high hopes as soon as they hit 16 or 17. The quality players that have come through or are coming through for Ireland now are the ones that have done it the hard way, McClean, Coleman, Fahy, Ward, Doyle as a few examples and not to mention Hoolahan. The FAI will still refuse to acknowledge this though and will stick to what they have always done. The likes of Croatia on the other hand would not let this happen their players.

Until something is done to stop teams from the UK taking our best young players, using them and sending them home when they are surplus to requirements the sooner we will stop being forever reliant on a few hopefuls making the break through over there to supply our senior international team.

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Interesting point. So having kept the kids home in Ireland, how do you distract their gaze from the bright lights of Premier League football. It's only natural for them to want to go there.

I agree totally that the English game has killed far too many Irish hopefuls, but until we can produce a bona fide league of our own then no one is going to want to play in front of a couple of hundred on a Sunday.

I would really like to see our promising young kids head to places like Holland, France and Belgium and if they're really good, Spain and Italy. But no one wants to take the first step in that direction. How can we change that?

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Originally Posted by mark12345

If you remember they had nine players and we had 11.

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We were 2-0 up long before they lost either player.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Interesting point. So having kept the kids home in Ireland, how do you distract their gaze from the bright lights of Premier League football. It's only natural for them to want to go there.

I agree totally that the English game has killed far too many Irish hopefuls, but until we can produce a bona fide league of our own then no one is going to want to play in front of a couple of hundred on a Sunday.

I would really like to see our promising young kids head to places like Holland, France and Belgium and if they're really good, Spain and Italy. But no one wants to take the first step in that direction. How can we change that?

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I
I agree it is very hard to keep the younger lads from heading off as it can possibly be a great chance over. Some kind of law or rule to protect young players and their families from making rash decisions needs to come in. What exactly that rule would be would probably require a much more detailed debate. The Spanish and Dutch etc... Have no use for the Irish players as they prefer to work on their own younger players. English teams I feel look at Ireland more as somewhere else they may pick up a few talented players and nothing more. I've say it many times and I stick by it, if it's between a 17 year old Irish lad and a 17 year old English lad of similar talent they are always going to hang onto the English lad and send the Irish lad packing, which for a young lad can be heartbreaking and very disheartening.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I agree totally that the English game has killed far too many Irish hopefuls, but until we can produce a bona fide league of our own then no one is going to want to play in front of a couple of hundred on a Sunday.

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When's the last time you watched a league game?

Couldnt agree more with JOFSpring - ive said it on here myself so many times that there is so much benefit to us holding onto the majority of our young playrs and feeding them into the LOI through an academy type structure (even some form of draft each year a la American NFL, a bit wishful or unrealistic maybe but it can be adjusted).

The best of the best will and should still move at younger ages to top english sides. But the massive exodus each year is detrimental to those kids and to us as a footballing nation. A stronger domestic league with young prospects will be better for all levels of football in the country right up to the national team. Imagine the pride of us picking players for a national squad with a few representatives from our own League - Bohs, Limerick, Sligo, Shamrock Rovers etc. It would be absolutely fantastic (not to mention in line with most of the rest of the world).

I wrote an essay about it a few years back on here but never saved the posts.

Ideally the coaching at home should be good.

But until it is why don't we encourage the young players to look further afield. Send them to Denmark, Holland, Germany, France. These countries have excellent coaching and encourage players to develop properly.

Because scouts in Denmark, Holland, Germany and France don't want them.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Because scouts in Denmark, Holland, Germany and France don't want them.

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I have no stats to prove this but I assume that the money on offer in the 2nd and 3rd tier of these countries is less than in England which is probably another factor (amoung many others) limiting the number of young Ireland players going to these countries.
Less money, no other irish palyers at the club, know very little about the club/city and can't speak the language would make it a less attractive option for most teenagers.
They need someone to convince them that it would be a great opportunity to improve their game, learn a new language, enjoy better weather and better looking women :p

I'm not sure the money in lower leagues is a concern for 16 year olds with hopes of making it at a top club. It's more that scouts from those countries don't bother looking here for players, unless they're truly exceptional.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

With competent officials Croatia would never have won.

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Blame the referee for the penalty not given to Robbie and I'm 100% behind you (I am a referee by the way). But blame FIFA for their second goal. Same principle as Gallas scoring that Henry handball goal in Paris. Gallas was offside to begin with just as Jelavic was offisde to begin with for Croatia. Sure you can talk about second phase of play and all that (for Jelavic's goal) but FIFA are asking referees and linesmen to do far too much while hoping them to be 100% right all the time.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

When's the last time you watched a league game?

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A good many years ago I played in the LOI. Watched some games too.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Blame the referee for the penalty not given to Robbie and I'm 100% behind you (I am a referee by the way). But blame FIFA for their second goal. Same principle as Gallas scoring that Henry handball goal in Paris. Gallas was offside to begin with just as Jelavic was offisde to begin with for Croatia. Sure you can talk about second phase of play and all that (for Jelavic's goal) but FIFA are asking referees and linesmen to do far too much while hoping them to be 100% right all the time.

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I don't know the specifics of the evolution of the offside rule, maybe someone can clarify for me.

Here's my 2 cents on what seems reasonable football logic, of course, inspired by the Jelavic goal. This is just my football fan sense talking; it may turn out that I'm describing the old rule, the new rule, or none of the above.

If someone is offside but not interfering with play, and that remains the case throughout a progression of play, then I can see not stopping play. However, if a player somehow gains an unfair advantage as a result of having been in an offside position, and comes back into play, surely ceding that unfair advantage gained doesn't seem in keeping with the spirit of the offside rule and how it influences the flow of the game generally.

I suppose where you get into the weeds here is the operational definition of "a progression of play." If that ends once Ireland touches the ball a la Stephen Ward, then what I've described would have Jelavic onside.

Feel free to punch holes in this argument, if there's any logic in it at all.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Because scouts in Denmark, Holland, Germany and France don't want them.

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I was able to ask Ernie Stewart a question about this once. He is technical director at AZ Alkmaar. Every month he answers questions from the fans.
Anyway, i asked him why does AZ Alkmaar not scout any players from Ireland, and does, for example scout in Iceland.

He said Irish players were not interesting enough, because they have to much competition from the English and Scottish teams.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

I am a referee by the way

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Just to digress: is obstruction still an offence punished by an indirect free? I think it's years since I've seen it awarded.

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Originally Posted by Nagger

I was able to ask Ernie Stewart a question about this once. He is technical director at AZ Alkmaar. Every month he answers questions from the fans.
Anyway, i asked him why does AZ Alkmaar not scout any players from Ireland, and does, for example scout in Iceland.

He said Irish players were not interesting enough, because they have to much competition from the English and Scottish teams.

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It's a shame, I mean look at how much McGeady has improved since he went to Russia.

But it's part of the Irish mentality. Didn't Gary Breen have the opportunity to go to Parma but Mick talked him out of it and told him to go to West Ham instead?

And Robbie Keane threw in the towel after a few months in Italy. If he had stayed he could have learned a thing or two from Lippi, instead of ending up with O'Leary at Leeds.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

but until we can produce a bona fide league of our own then no one is going to want to play in front of a couple of hundred on a Sunday.

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Actually LOI games are played on Fridays - and have been for years. 'A bona fide league' (?) is made viable by supporters. The onus is on fans to support teams in their own country. Unfortunately Irish fans are mostly lazy and unimaginative and can't see the link between following teams and those teams becoming better and more successful as a result of their support.

I don't see it happening without investment. I was in a hotel bar after the game on Sunday, 5 feet away from Denis O'Brien and his entourage. I wanted to ask him if he'd also redevelop Dalyer into a 35k moderrn footy stadium and give the FAI £5mm for each LOI club to develop facilities etc.

We also need to hire a whole host of eastern european coaches!

Joking aside, football infrastructure costs money. Footballers cost money and good players migrate to where they get paid. In big countries the money comes from all angles - benefactors, gates, commercial and most importantly TV. Irish rugby gets gates because the public can watch some of the world's best players every week. Arguably the best club team in the world plays in Dublin, and used to play in Limerick.

What chance does Ireland have of generating this in sufficient quantity to make a marked improvement? The income earned by the national team is being pi$$ed away on the Aviva financial commitments so there's no money there. Irish governments have never done anything for football, so it only leaves the benefactor route to financing player development, apart from the excellent work done by volunteers.

I still have no idea whether the FAI Technical Development Plan is (a) being rolled out, and (b) any good. Isn't Koevermans leaving?

Some Irish billioniare needs to buy Luton or some team like that, move the team to Dublin to play in Aviva, put money in it, and have a Prem team in Dublin a few years down the road.
Why not?

Put your helmet on...

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

Actually LOI games are played on Fridays - and have been for years. 'A bona fide league' (?) is made viable by supporters. The onus is on fans to support teams in their own country. Unfortunately Irish fans are mostly lazy and unimaginative and can't see the link between following teams and those teams becoming better and more successful as a result of their support.

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The FAI are lazy and unimaginative as well. I don't been to bang on about this but the league needs to cover more of the country. The FAI should be driving this on and working with the league clubs in the development of the game across the country.

Unfortunately it is a vicious circle. We complain about Irish players going to English clubs at a young age only for the vast majority of them to come home disillusioned. How do we prevent them from doing that? By having better coaching at home. Good coaching costs money. Who is going to provide the coaching at home? FAI? No chance. The clubs? They would if they could afford it but they can't because they have no money. Why don't they have any money? Because hardly anybody supports them.

Nothing will ever change until the coaching/facilities/league improve at home. Barring the Kevin Doyles and James McCleans, we have always relied on English clubs do coach our players. Since the Premier League has started, English clubs now find it easier to buy a ready made skillful "foreign" player on the cheap rather than to gamble the time/money on producing young English/Scottish/Irish players. England and Scotland are also suffering the same problem.

As I've said a hundred times on here, we only have to look in the mirror as to why this keeps happening. Most of us choose to support clubs in England because it's better, more exciting etc but refuse to support a LOI club because the LOI is shyte. Yes of course it's shyte but it's OUR shyte. And it will always be because it is not supported.

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Originally Posted by Metrostars

Unfortunately it is a vicious circle. We complain about Irish players going to English clubs at a young age only for the vast majority of them to come home disillusioned. How do we prevent them from doing that? By having better coaching at home. Good coaching costs money. Who is going to provide the coaching at home? FAI? No chance. The clubs? They would if they could afford it but they can't because they have no money. Why don't they have any money? Because hardly anybody supports them.

Nothing will ever change until the coaching/facilities/league improve at home. Barring the Kevin Doyles and James McCleans, we have always relied on English clubs do coach our players. Since the Premier League has started, English clubs now find it easier to buy a ready made skillful "foreign" player on the cheap rather than to gamble the time/money on producing young English/Scottish/Irish players. England and Scotland are also suffering the same problem.

As I've said a hundred times on here, we only have to look in the mirror as to why this keeps happening. Most of us choose to support clubs in England because it's better, more exciting etc but refuse to support a LOI club because the LOI is shyte. Yes of course it's shyte but it's OUR shyte. And it will always be because it is not supported.

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.. and it's only in 13 out of 26 counties. Hardly representing or giving more of the country the chance to be involved in the game. A complete failure by the FAI.

The great thing about depression, it seems, is if you're deep enough you just go numb and stop feeling feelings. At least that's where I'm now residing.

/looking around

It's not so bad in this place.

I feel like Randy the morning after in that South Park episode about Obama getting elected.

A lot of things died for me in these Euro's. My Dad died two days before Croatia, and I'm yet to see the game. The RTE panel died in front of my eyes tonight - when they're blaming Green on the final goal, it's time to go, and finally, the notion that we can compete under this manager died for me. All the strokes went with us in qualifying - from the group, to decisions, to other results, the play-off opponents - everything. But that was horrid tonight, compounding my depression. Hard to see a way back for some of the players after this.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

A lot of things died for me in these Euro's. My Dad died two days before Croatia, and I'm yet to see the game. The RTE panel died in front of my eyes tonight - when they're blaming Green on the final goal, it's time to go, and finally, the notion that we can compete under this manager died for me. All the strokes went with us in qualifying - from the group, to decisions, to other results, the play-off opponents - everything. But that was horrid tonight, compounding my depression. Hard to see a way back for some of the players after this.

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Sorry for your father, Kingdom.

Sincere condolences Kingdom.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

A lot of things died for me in these Euro's. My Dad died two days before Croatia, and I'm yet to see the game. The RTE panel died in front of my eyes tonight - when they're blaming Green on the final goal, it's time to go, and finally, the notion that we can compete under this manager died for me. All the strokes went with us in qualifying - from the group, to decisions, to other results, the play-off opponents - everything. But that was horrid tonight, compounding my depression. Hard to see a way back for some of the players after this.

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Sorry to hear about your Dad, Kingdom.

Kingdom - sorry for your loss mate.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Some Irish billioniare needs to buy Luton or some team like that, move the team to Dublin to play in Aviva, put money in it, and have a Prem team in Dublin a few years down the road.
Why not?

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Ignoring a rehash of the Dublin Dons argument (which was completely justified), how would it actually benefit the international team?

What makes you think it will be full of Irish players and make any difference for the national team? Best case scenario it'd contain a few tokens, a bit like London Irish. And what makes you think "the best fans in the world" would support it anyway? They're already more loyal to "their" English or Scottish club teams than the international team - hence we get embarrassing crap like booing opposition players based on English or Scottish club rubbish.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The FAI are lazy and unimaginative as well. I don't been to bang on about this but the league needs to cover more of the country. The FAI should be driving this on and working with the league clubs in the development of the game across the country.

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That's just excuse making. No club in my county, so I'll chose a Manchester/ Liverpool/ London/ Glasgow club which I also have no connection with? But hey, I can watch them down the pub with my mates and spend more on drink than I'd spend on petrol and gate money to my nearest club. Makes no sense.

The only way we are going to develop players is through a proper reform of football in this country. This means schoolboy/ junior and intermediate clubs feeding into our national league. It involves the FAI having competent people in place to overseas the players development. And yes, it does also require Irish people to support Irish clubs more. This will provide funds (the FAI must oversee the spending properly) and also provide the incentive for players to stay in Ireland rather than to be shipped out as a teenager and be lost to senior football forever. They can, and certainly could, make a good living here, and not going and/or coming back needn't be the end of the dream, as many players have shown in recent seasons. I can imagine there's a few players who came back and couldn't be arsed are now doubly depressed.

Finally, sorry for your loss Kingdom.

Sorry to hear of your loss my thoughts are with you and your family. It might be a game we love, but football is pretty insignificant compared to such things.

Kingdom, your sad loss puts this thread into perspective. My condolences to you and your family.

I’ve been unusually resigned, maybe even fatalistic, since the tournament began. I feared the worst against Croatia, and expected a drubbing against Spain. But I didn’t expect to see two performances so flat and insipid. This was football bereft of hope. I’ve always believed that a call to passion is the last refuge of the tactically inept, but we’ve been unable to muster even a semblance of our old zesty endeavour. That has been disappointing.

I was more down after the Croatia game as expectations had risen so high, after that performance there was always a nagging fear that last night could be horrible, and even though the optimism had returned before kick off the depression is not so deep. Spain are the best in the world and we are a limited team playing a rigid system that has been easily exposed by them, it's sad, but not unexpected.
As Kingdom has illustrated, there are more important things than football, and I'd like to add my condolonces also.

Sorry for your loss K.