Macken in Ireland squad!!!

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Originally Posted by Macy

What reason would an Irishman have for playing for England?

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The same reason an Englishman would want to play for Ireland, career progression. He was only 19 at the time and was far from guaranteed his career would ever begin as he hadn't played a 1st team game. What better way to get your career going than by playing in the world youth championships?

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Jaysus scan, keep your head down and your boots on, I got slated for calling those players "non-Irish", I hope you have a good life assurance policy.

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No, you got slated because everyone thought you were calling all the English born players English. I think its safe to say that Morrison and Holland are English. O'Brien, Breen, Kilbane, Connolly, McCarthy are all Irish.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

The same reason an Englishman would want to play for Ireland, career progression. He was only 19 at the time and was far from guaranteed his career would ever begin as he hadn't played a 1st team game. What better way to get your career going than by playing in the world youth championships?


No, you got slated because everyone thought you were calling all the English born players English. I think its safe to say that Morrison and Holland are English. O'Brien, Breen, Kilbane, Connolly, McCarthy are all Irish.

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Didnt Andy O'Brien play u21 for Ingerland?

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Originally Posted by Pablo

Didnt Andy O'Brien play u21 for Ingerland?

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Nope, played u21 for Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

Nope, played u21 for Ireland.

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i'm pretty sure he played for ingerland underage

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Originally Posted by Pablo

i'm pretty sure he played for ingerland underage

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It's true, honest guv'nor. Made his senior debut in 2001 before the ruling and played u21 for Ireland. Check it out on the FAI website if you don't believe me.

Andy O'Brien had a choice of playing for Ireland or England and, after deliberating over the issue as a teenager, he eventually selected Ireland and was a regular member of Ireland's Under 21 panel until Mick McCarthy called him into the senior panel during the summer of 2001.

But he did play for england u21 against France in february 1999

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Originally Posted by Pablo

But he did play for england u21 against France in february 1999

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Where you getting this info from. He made his debut in 2001. The ruling that u21 players could change nationality came in last year. This means he has been playing for ireland illegally until this ruling

your actually right:

In February 1999, O'Brien played in a friendly against France at Pride Park but when Taylor offered him the chance in England's next competitive outing, O'Brien demurred and took time out to ponder his international future. He was flattered by the English attention but he was aware of his Irish roots - his grandparents Danny and Kathleen O'Brien had moved from Kilfinnane in south-west Limerick to look for work in the mills of Yorkshire - and two months after his English debut, he played for Ireland in an under-21 friendly against Sweden in Birr.

People approach him now and wonder, what with his upwardly mobile status, if he regrets the decision. "I say no. It wasn't really close. I only played against France because it was a friendly and there was pressure from the club's point of view because they think it's more prestigious to play for England than for Ireland." He has no doubts. He travelled to Kilfinnane with his father last summer and the experience overwhelmed him. "Just picking up a few pieces of my past," he said.

davros, do you actually think McAteer considers himself Irish? I love McAteer but I'm pretty sure he considers himself English.

I have to imagine any Shels player near the squad (Byrne, Wes, etc) would probably not get called up to the Bulgaria game in case they pick up a stupid injury in what's going to be a pretty meaningless game, and all a week before the biggest game in their club's history. The bulgaria game is only to get the squad together before the real business of the qualifiers begins.

They should get a call up to the Cyprus, or at the very least the Faroes though.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

your actually right:

In February 1999, O'Brien played in a friendly against France at Pride Park but when Taylor offered him the chance in England's next competitive outing, O'Brien demurred and took time out to ponder his international future. He was flattered by the English attention but he was aware of his Irish roots - his grandparents Danny and Kathleen O'Brien had moved from Kilfinnane in south-west Limerick to look for work in the mills of Yorkshire - and two months after his English debut, he played for Ireland in an under-21 friendly against Sweden in Birr.

People approach him now and wonder, what with his upwardly mobile status, if he regrets the decision. "I say no. It wasn't really close. I only played against France because it was a friendly and there was pressure from the club's point of view because they think it's more prestigious to play for England than for Ireland." He has no doubts. He travelled to Kilfinnane with his father last summer and the experience overwhelmed him. "Just picking up a few pieces of my past," he said.

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Can someone explain how this to me? Was it that only competitive underage matches tied you to that country?

Apologies Pablo. I bow to your superior knowledge. :)

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

Can someone explain how this to me? Was it that only competitive underage matches tied you to that country?

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Yes.

:) PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

Yes.

:) PP

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Brief and informative. Good to see you back PP. :)

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

Apologies Pablo. I bow to your superior knowledge. :)

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i wasnt sure myself but it was in the back of my mind. IMO he shouldnt then have played for Ireland

Just my opinion

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

Brief and informative. Good to see you back PP. :)

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Why thank you Bowsy. :) A break from football and also from cyberland is a good thing sometimes. Patrick J must be enjoying his right now. ;)

:D PP

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Originally Posted by Paddy Joe

Patrick J. will always live on. Good to see ya back Plastic Paddy. :D Heard you went on the holiday of a lifetime . . . Ibiza or Majorca or somewhere? Hear there's lots of Luton fans out there. Too many northsiders for my liking however. Must be great to be back home in England?

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Welcome back, how's skipper.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Joe

Patrick J. will always live on. Good to see ya back Plastic Paddy. :D Heard you went on the holiday of a lifetime . . . Ibiza or Majorca or somewhere? Hear there's lots of Luton fans out there. Too many northsiders for my liking however. Must be great to be back home in England?

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Keep fishing, P. I'm too chilled out to bite.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Joe

Going to Skipper's birthday party tomorrow night actually. He hasn't had a chance to log back on in recent days, due to preparations for his party. It's in the Kilashee Hotel in Kildare if you fancy popping in. Semi-formal of course. :)

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Some of the lads hereabouts reckon Skipper isn't so much your right-hand man as merely your right hand, if you know what I mean. I couldn't possibly comment. :rolleyes:

:) PP

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Originally Posted by Paddy Joe

Going to Skipper's birthday party tomorrow night actually. He hasn't had a chance to log back on in recent days, due to preparations for his party. It's in the Kilashee Hotel in Kildare if you fancy popping in. Semi-formal of course. :)

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No can do i'm afraid got to be at work at 5am tomorrow, just like yerself i'm working class and have got to put in the overtime to maintain my high standard of living. Also like PP I live in Sassana (you probably would'nt understand that word) and it would be awkward to make it.
BTW is Skipper yer pet Kangaroo.

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Originally Posted by tiktok

There's no need for an Englishman to get an Irish passport, but maybe he considers himself an Irishman and he wanted an irish passport.

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Well if what Davros says is true then that may be true, but I had heard he qualified via a grandparent(s).

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Originally Posted by davros

Born in Manchester to Irish parents......I think from Galway........He's as Irish as anyone...what's the problem?

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Can someone point to to credible information on his elligibility?

My metal gymnastics is as follows ( I think we all are playing this mind game ) :

1 grandparent born in Ireland = dodgey. Should be damn good player to make up for lack of Irish genes.

2 grandparents born in Ireland = Qualifies as Irish, no questions.

One or both parents born in Ireland = 100% Paddy.

It is the Morrisons, McAteers and Hollands that cause me a problem, again ability goes a long way as in Ray Houghton. Plus scoring against England makes you Irish instantly and forever.

So where does Macken fit into these scheme?

Giles had a nice line damning Macken and Connolly at the same time: “He’s obviously not as good as Robbie Keane, and he’s probably on the same level as somebody like David Connolly, so I’m not sure he’ll set the world alight.”

But as we are so short of options...

The above system isnt ideal tho... you could get someone who had one grandparent but would consider themselves to be very Irish whereas another with say an Irish parent might not consider themselves that Irish... a lot depends on upbringing.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

One or both parents born in Ireland = 100% Paddy.

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Boss I dunno about you but most people have 4 grandparents. Surley if 2 of your grandparents are Irish you are 50% Paddy.

I have one Irish parent and one Indian/Burmese/Iranian parent so I've always bneen brought up Irish witht he music, team, flags and the whole Irish culture.
Really the fact that my dad is mixed means that Irish is the only culture I have although we do have a fair bit of Indian food :D

Paddy throgyuha dn through :D

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Originally Posted by Paddy J.

If all you can think about is my right hand in action, then keep it to yourself. Didn't realise that was your thing. On second thoughts, were you at that mass collection of gay weddings in San Francisco during the week as opposed to Ibiza? If that's your thing then fair enough. I wont support gay-bashing on this site.

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Surely that brilliant education you're on about can get you some better insults than the old playground banter of "you're gay"!
I think PP was possibly refering to you having multiple acounts.............................

I know I text/PM ya PP but I'll say welcome back in public :)
Check your inbox btw ;)

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Originally Posted by carnstien

Boss I dunno about you but most people have 4 grandparents. Surley if 2 of your grandparents are Irish you are 50% Paddy.

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Dude I said "One or both parents born in Ireland = 100% Paddy", please schedule a visit to the eye doctor :)

I'm not sure if Macken should be in the squad or ina bow under the stairs wrapped in tissue-paper ?

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Here's a bit about all his injuries since City signed him in 2002:

He scored his first goal for the club in his first appearance as a substitute at Bradford. He came on for the final ten minutes slotting home with ease minutes after heading against the upright.

Scored again in his first start in the local derby defeat at Stockport County before claiming a brace in the home win over Barnsley.

A pre season injury to his knee denied him the chance to stake a claim in the squad for the opening games of the Premiership campaign. In early September he underwent an operation to remove some floating bone from the injured knee. He was ruled out of contention for two months.

Returned to action in January scoring in his second outing for the reserves. Came on as substitute in City's defeat at Newcastle but had a further setback with a injury to his thigh before regaining fitness in mid February.

Hit by injury once again when tweaking a hamstring when playing for the reserves at the end of February.

He rcovered in time to make four appearances from the bench towards the end of the season.

Started out on the bench and made his first start in the Blues 2-0 win over TNS in the qualifying round of the Uefa Cup. But was taken off with an ankle injury setting back his chances of forcing his way into the squad.

A subsequent foot injury forced him on the sidelines again, but remains hopeful that he will get a chance to prove himself at the top level with the Blues.

He came back to score in two matches for the reserves before getting his first goal of the season when he was a second half substiute in the Blues Carling Cup win over QPR.

He also had a double hernia operation at the end last season

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eh....box I think it was!

Have a few English mates with an Irish grandparent and was asking them their opinion on this. All of them are proud of their Irish heritage but consider themselves 100% English. It's very hard for one grandparent to have such a profound influences on someone IMO. That said it's a done deal now so Macken will get my support just like Clinton does.

Macken eager to make up for lost time

When Jonathan Macken made his solitary appearance for England youths in 1997, he didn’t realise that his 28 minutes on the pitch would become a stumbling block to further international honours. But a new ruling introduced by FIFA has allowed the Manchester-born striker a second chance, and he’s desperate to take it.

In 1997, Macken was a Manchester United youth team striker on the verge of a big money move to Preston North End – a move he hoped (correctly) would see him gain valuable first team experience ensuring a rapid rise to the Premiership.

1997 was also the year of the World Youth Championships in Malaysia and Macken received a late call-up to the tournament. From England, the country of his birth. Macken jumped at the chance.

Although aware of his Irish background - his grandparents are from County Cavan – Macken did not know had an Irish scout ever been to watch him play in Manchester United’s Youth team.

“I was busy with the move to Preston when the call came and I just jumped at the chance,” said Macken. “I didn’t even think about what affect it would have on my international career.”

At the same time as Macken was finalising his move to Preston and jumping on a plane to Malaysia, in Dublin, Brian Kerr was preparing a team for the World Youth Championships. Only in the job a number of months, Kerr barely had a moment to himself.

“At the time, FIFA’s cut off date for the age groups was January and UEFA’s was September. I only had a number of months to make one team out of two age groups for Malaysia and I was also in charge of two other teams.

“It was a very busy time and I didn’t even know about Jonathan’s Irish roots. I only found out that later, but since then, I think we’ve found more of the Irish lads than we’ve missed.”

Both Ireland and England travelled to the World Youth Championships – Ireland eventually finishing third in the tournament while England crashed out in the last 16 with Macken making a solitary 28 minute appearance as substitute in their clash with the United Arab Emirates.

It was to be Macken’s only appearance in an England shirt though it stopped him ever declaring for another country.

The 26-year-old was to rue his decision over the next number of years as he earned a reputation as a devastating striker with Preston that earned him a Stg5 million move to Manchester City in 2002.

At City, Macken had other worries on his mind as injuries meant that his career with the Citizens suffered a number of false starts. However, last season, given a run in the team, he began to show why manager Kevin Keegan was willing to spend so much on him as he was one of the few bright spots in an otherwise struggling City team.

At the same time, news of a new FIFA ruling filtered through which meant that Macken could switch nationality if he could produce the right paper work. Kerr also knew about the rule and was keen to see where there any players interested in being a test case.

However, he had a number of stipulations. “Firstly, we were only interested in players as good, or better, than those we already had and secondly, the player had to show they were committed to us,” said Kerr.

“It is well known that we sometimes lack in the front positions and from speaking to Jonathan, I knew he was desperate to play for us.”

Over the summer, Macken, with the help of the FAI, sought all the required documentation and made a case to FIFA to change nationality. The switch was rubber stamped by FIFA last week and Macken was immediately called into the squad for this week’s friendly with Bulgaria.

And now, having waited so long for his chance, the striker is eager to make it count. “I’ve waited a long time for this and now I want to prove I deserve a place in the side. It’s a very special occasion for me and for my family. They are all delighted. My grandfather passed away during the summer and it’s a shame he’s not here to see it though I know he’d be very proud that I am representing Ireland.”

Has Macken broken any law? NO
Is Macken an Irish citizen? YES
Therefore he is entitled to all the benefits of Irish Citizenship -one of which is honour of playing football for your country if selected to do so.

If you've a problem with that -take it up with Michael McDowell and get him to run another dubiously motivated referendum. I for one think it's a great thing that we offer citizenship to 2nd and 3rd G. Macken, Kerr and the FAI are only working by the rules as they stand.

I do worry about the way in which we question the loyalties of some of our UK and specifically England born players. I see no treachery whatsoever in Macken having played under 20 for England, Houghton and Coyne being among the tartan army at spain '82 or Kernaghan playing at virtually every level available but senior for our northern cousins before moving on to us. They're all perfectly within their rights. We live in an age of dual nationality and even multiple nationality. It's ridiculous of US -not them -to expect them to not have a love for the land they grew up in as well and as much as the country of their extraction.

So long as they give 100% in the green shirt I'll not complain.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

I for one think it's a great thing that we offer citizenship to 2nd and 3rd G. Macken, Kerr and the FAI are only working by the rules as they stand.

I do worry about the way in which we question the loyalties of some of our UK and specifically England born players. I see no treachery whatsoever in Macken having played under 20 for England, Houghton and Coyne being among the tartan army at spain '82 or Kernaghan playing at virtually every level available but senior for our northern cousins before moving on to us. They're all perfectly within their rights. We live in an age of dual nationality and even multiple nationality. It's ridiculous of US -not them -to expect them to not have a love for the land they grew up in as well and as much as the country of their extraction.

So long as they give 100% in the green shirt I'll not complain.

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Lionel, you hit the nail squarely on the head with this. You win my post of the day award. And it's only 1015. :D

:D PP

Fully in favour of using the granny rule. Think it's neccesary for a country of our size and history, but I still think people are entitled to question the man's motivations. For the majority this will go out the window though provided he gives 100% in an Irish shirt.

I think we are the only country in the world that have people complaining about 2G's playing for us. Portugal, France, Holland, Italy, Germany, England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland, Poland, Norway and many, many more countries have players playing for them that weren't born in that country. It's just we have more than others. :)

Are Newcastle fans complaining that Newcastle wasn't Kluivert's first choice? Are Chelsea fans complaining that Duffer would have preferred a move to ManU?

I think it is at bottom about sincerity, if the player genuinely feels Irish then I have no problem. And we really can't tell if they don't unless they fess up, we can't read their minds. I would like to really hear Andy Townsend or Matt Holland discuss what playing for Ireland means to them.

Guys like Coyne or Houghton can at least claim to be Celts. I could easily imagine playing for Scotland so I would think for most Scots the feeling would be mutual. I don't really think the rules have anything to do with it, to play for a national team surely the least we should ask is that the person see that country as their spiritual home???

I think it's fairly simple. Macken qualifies to play for us. Ergo sum, he's available to be chosen. Now he simply has to prove he is worth choosing. It's not like he has a lot of competition as first choice striker beside Robbie....

If he's crap, well, nothing lost in allowing him to try. But if he's good, well it turns out to be a stunning piece of management!! :D
But as someone already said - one goal against England and he is beatified for life....although personally, I'd settle for a hat trick against France in the upcoming 6-0 victory .....