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I'd say a player or (particularly) a match official gets abuse about their appearance just as much as their performance. "Fat ****", "Ugly *****, "Short ******", "Bald *****", "Ginger ****" etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It's no less unacceptable if the target of such abuse is a man, in my opinion.
It's not really. A stadium full of men shouting abuse at a woman because she's a woman/focussing on her physical features is a lot different to the garden variety abuse male players get.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
They are shouting at her because she is the ref not because she is a womanQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Are refs particularly known for their culinary skills?
It's unsurprising that there are so many apologists for shouting abuse at a woman because she is a woman as its acceptable practice in most football environments. Doesn't make it right though. Ye can try and justify any which way you want, but its indefensible. I have no problem with the likes of "phuq off ref" if she made a poor decision, but shouting abuse at a woman on the basis of her gender in a crowd that will be at least 95% male is about as intimidating as it gets. That chant to the physio mentioned above is beneath contempt.
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Originally Posted by gormacha
I wasn't at the match, but I think it is far more likely that she was being shouted at because she was the referee. I'd guess that her gender influenced the kind of abuse she got, rather than being the sole reason she was getting abuse.
Not once have I condoned the abuse given to people at games. I just said it happens. It's part and parcel of any referees job.
I never, EVER, condone personal abuse or sexism or racism or what have you, I simply am saying, it happens.
If you honestly believe a referee shouldn't prepare to deal with that then you are seriously deluded.
The question of whether they should prepare to deal with it is completely separate from the question of whether they should have to deal with. If you want to equate sexism with calling somebody fat or a ginger, that's your decision. You might even laugh at it and think it's funny that the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender. Maybe it's really funny, I don't know!
Or maybe the abuse that women, particularly in a male-dominated sport like football, have to endure on a daily basis isn't funny at all.
Or maybe it's absolute quality.
:victory:Quote:
Originally Posted by askmehoop
I think it was a table top...had to run the length of the pitch too, great stuff.
And at that game, he sent a Rovers player off. He gave it half an hour before deciding to even up the teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by dfx-
As for Kelly, I remember him reffing a Cork-Drogheda game in Cork in the Setanta Cup. Cork were struggling to hold on to a narrow lead so with 15 minutes left, he sent an away player off. He enjoyed it so much that he sent another one off 3 minutes later. Cork duly took advantage within minutes and won the game. Not too many complaints then.
You're watching the wrong sport I think. Anyone for a game of Polo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91KQs12-q4Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Unlike what your comment suggests about your opinion, I don't accept that football has to be a place where sexism, racism and homophobia have to exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Twenty years ago it would have been acceptable to comment on a player's skin colour. Most people now regard this as totally unacceptable. My point is that sexist abuse is equally unacceptable, and its important when the discussion comes up anywhere where football supporters discuss stuff that it is challenged.
I'm no shrinking violet, and I give as good as I get at matches. But when I shout something, its about what someone does, not their gender, their colour or whatever.
All those years in the 1st Division, and you never once call Philly Hughes a fat b@stard?
In that case wouldn't he be commenting on Hughes actions; ie eating too many snack boxes? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Who ate all the pies - with the refrain - Philly Hughes did, Philly Hughes did (in place of you """""""""""""")
Was there a reason that the linesman/woman used to run the same side as the bulk of the more vociferous rovers fans back then? I always thought it would have made more sense for them to run the other half of the pitch on our side, and the the opposite on the riverside.
There was a lineswoman we used to get regularly back then, and she was well able for the banter. I've met her through work a few times and she remembers those days with good memories, but she's always glad that our lot didn't find out that she's in a relationship with a now former bohs director.
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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Tallaght is far from a stadium of men these days.
Two words, Bobby RyanQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Clive DelaneyQuote:
Originally Posted by askmehoop
Jason Gavin
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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
But you're not getting my point, it doesn't matter whether they SHOULD have to deal with it or not, because really they do have to deal with it, because like I keep saying, it's something that comes with being a referee, regardless of gender, size, or weight, it's part of the job of being a referee.
I applaud you sticking up for common decency, and for the rights of others, but I'm simply saying, in reality, they have to deal with this sort of thing.
I'm not laughing because as you said "the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender", I'm laughing because it was a funny joke. I've heard linesmen get worse abuse over the years, are you going to say to me now, "it's a disgrace they got that sort of abuse simply because they were a man." I think not.
nigel-harps1954 - do you really not get the qualitative difference between shouting, for example, "phuq off you baldy b0llix" to a male referee in all-male environment, and shouting something at a woman about her being a woman in all-male environment? There is inevitably a sexual innuendo that the woman has to deal with that the baldy b0llix of a ref doesn't. Women simply shouldn't have to run this gauntlet at any time, and especially not in a large public gathering of men.
And you said, "it doesn't matter whether they SHOULD have to deal with it or not, because really they do have to deal with it, ...it's part of the job of being a referee". I completely disagree. That's a license to say anything to anybody. That's the excuse people used twenty years ago to excuse throwing bananas at black players, and that's why black players had to swallow their tongue and not complain in case they were thought of as "problems" that clubs needed to get rid of. It was only when enough people start saying, "that's not on" that people's behaviour started to change. And that's why its important that when the same thing happens to women that some of us say that it's wrong and should stop. Hopefully, in a few years time, the type of abuse women routinely get (and the quieter problem of general discrimination against women in football) will be regarded as out-of-bounds as racism generally is today.
League of Ireland is an all male environment? You really should work on your own clubs attendance patterns if that is the case where you watch football.
As a matter of interest - did the lino actually make a complaint? Was it included in the ref's report?
You're really not getting the point. It's one thing that you think I don't understand your point, when in fact I do, convenient that my girlfriend is a strong feminist, but it's another that you keep bringing up the same argument over and over again gormacha.
I understand that a female should not have to go through sexism, just the same way nobody should.
You are the one singling out the woman in this whole thing, 'in a male dominated world'. I'm trying to state my point logically and simply for you, that whether or not it's acceptable, whether or not it should be there, there is abuse toward referees in this sport. Any person, male or female, wanting to be a referee should be prepared to deal with it as it is part of the job. Don't give me that whole '20 years ago' sh**e again because it is simply something that happens in football.
And, for the record, there is a lot worse things shouted at referees than 'fug off ye baldy bol**cks'.
Are you really going to nitpick with me to that extent? Everyone knows that males account for the overwhelming majority of supporters. Yes, there's some women, but how many? A few percent? In future I'll be careful to state it more accurately for you, even though you surely knew what I meant and that the point is beyond debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
People in a minority, like women now, or black players in the past, rarely make complaints because they are afraid of the consequences. "She's trouble that one. Can't take a joke."
nigel, yet again you haven't dealt with the substance of my argument - that things don't change until people's poor behaviour is challenged. The example of how attitudes to black players changed is not "sh1te" as you eloquently put it, but entirely relevant because it shows how challenging racism changed behaviour inside grounds.
Like racist abuse, sexist abuse is not a given. It could change if enough people said it was unacceptable. Clearly you're not one of them.
i wouldnt put them in the 'Mutant' category with BobQuote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I'm not denying the reality that it happens or saying that this is the first instance. I was originally objecting to the fact you were applauding it, as if it's not a totally barbaric way for a section of the crowd to act.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
And I'm not laughing because it wasn't funny. I'm sure there are plenty of women - there may even be some on this board - who will see it as banter and play along, but it shouldn't be a default position that any woman in football should be seen as fair game for this kind of neanderthal bull****.Quote:
I applaud you sticking up for common decency, and for the rights of others, but I'm simply saying, in reality, they have to deal with this sort of thing.
I'm not laughing because as you said "the crowd is picking on and belittling somebody based on their gender", I'm laughing because it was a funny joke. I've heard linesmen get worse abuse over the years, are you going to say to me now, "it's a disgrace they got that sort of abuse simply because they were a man." I think not.
And you can't flip this one. Linesmen don't get abused on the basis of their gender.
That's not true at all. Douglas' lesbianism is a frequent point of abuse!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
theres only one, Jason GavinQuote:
Originally Posted by askmehoop
theres only one, Jason Gavin
with a jet engine, and a cabin crew
Gavin is an aeroplane
more of a transformer ol Jason
Okay, I give up. How's about I say sorry, and move on. Women are great.
Great at doin the dishes, wha, whaQuote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Of all the women who were in the ground at the time (be it a few dozen or a few hundred), how many others were abused? I'd go for none. Are you arguing that the fact that she was a match official had nothing to do the fact that she was getting abuse?
I think that to describe it as discrimination on the basis of their gender is to mis-represent the situation.
Match officials get abuse. If they're bald, they get abuse for that. If they're short, they get abuse for that. If they're women, they get abuse for that. It's all equally wrong.
Eamon Zayed, In Newbridge, told to "go back where you came from": Sallynoggin!Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
Women are singled out in most walks of life. Sometimes it is an advantage, sometimes it isn't. As far as langugae goes, rough as it gets sometimes, we haven't quite gone down the Islamic route of banning them from the stadium yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
They're in a minority in Irish football, mainly through choice. They choose GAA and rugby over football because it's a friendlier atmosphere, they can mix with whoever and whenever they like, not be herded into a segregated part of the ground with all sorts of fanatics, having to sit in allocated seats for 2-3 hours at a time, subjected to routine searches for a set of car keys outside it, and held back 15 minutes after the games. It can be a hostile environment sometimes, and understandably they don't like it.
what games are you going to? allocated seats? you only get held back at away games, and even then not for too long, Tallaght and Tolka are grounds I can remember being held back in - dont think weve been held back anywhere else recentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Yeah, you can't get women to go football with you because of that...Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
To get somewhere back on track, its Rhona Daly (not Rhonda) and she is from Athlone.
Done the line in Lissywollen a few times and got a bit of abuse, not for being a woman but for some poor calls.
I think abusing the ref/lino (be it he or she) is still referable to hitting him in the head with a bottle :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Unfortunately the chance to hurl abuse at some poor unfortunate is now as much part of the game as enjoying the football. More often than not it is good fun and adds to the atmosphere. On the occassions where it goes overboard the people around usually deal with it or report the matter to stewards.
Often wonder how much impact such abuse from the crowd would have on a player/official (if any). Dont believe for one second anyone fels "intimidated" by banter - however crude.