Rory Donnelly

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22/12/2011, 11:32 AM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

As this is a thread about Rory Donnelly I don't want to go into too much detail about the home town of a prospective manager of the lad's but suffice to say that Carnlough is a strongly nationalist town at the southern end of the Glens of Antrim and my suspicion would be that anyone hailing from there would be unlikely to advise a player to play for NI a suspicion supported by his son's actions. Yes he does say all that stuff about supporting NI which we have to take at face value but I wonder just what advise his son was given by him, I'm sure he was asked for his thoughts. I don't think there is conclusive evidence either way, but I still have my suspicions. Bit of a christmas whodunnit, must get the cluedo out over the holidays. Who loves ya baby?
What do you think of the kind of money being offered for Donnelly? I think it's a bit of an insult and hope that Cliftonville hold out for a decent price and follow ups.
Anyway I see that there has been a deadline for resolution of the whole saga by Cliftonville and that Arsenal are now interested as well. Can't see it being done and dusted that quick myself.

OK IFK. I know you may regard this as ex post facto validation of my point, but I would submit that the above post clearly does suggest that Northern "nationalists" (not a term that I introduced to these discussions) should / would naturally choose to opt to play for Ireland rather than NI. More fundamentally it is implicit in the very existence of this thread that someone playing for Cliftonville with the name of Donnelly would be more likely to play for us than an upcoming prospect at Linfield or Crusaders from a unionist background.

My point is that we are beginning to expect Northern "nationalists" to follow the Gibson, Duffy, Wilson trail and this expectation might be unreasonable and ultimately unheplful for community relationships in NI. Manny players with "nationalist" backgrounds and cultural outlooks have played and will play for NI.The spectre of Ireland's two football teams becoming the international equivalent of Celtic and Rangers is what troubles me, and it's the basis of my past gripes with the
likes of Ealing Green and Gather Round who are seemingly blind to the continuing sectarian excesses of many diehard NI supporters.

My preferance would be for a single team especially as the IFA / FAI schism was not exclusively about partition and both teams have at different times picked players from both sides of the border. But in the mean time (and I know its heresy to some on this site) maybe we shouldn't pick NI born players, but should take a look at the bigger picture.
22/12/2011, 11:47 AM
punkrocket

I knew there was a reason why I don't post over on that other thread.
22/12/2011, 11:58 AM
Predator

Rodgers has also recently said he doesn't like the Irish national team (s) question because of the political baggage that is inherently attached.
I'd say he doesn't care much who his son plays for as long as he's playing.
22/12/2011, 12:03 PM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

...this expectation might be unreasonable and ultimately unheplful for community relationships in NI...

Can you elaborate on this?

Quote:

But in the mean time (and I know its heresy to some on this site) maybe we shouldn't pick NI born players, but should take a look at the bigger picture.

Hold on, what is this so-called "bigger picture"?
22/12/2011, 12:03 PM
Newryrep

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

My preferance would be for a single team especially as the IFA / FAI schism was not exclusively about partition and both teams have at different times picked players from both sides of the border. But in the mean time (and I know its heresy to some on this site) maybe we shouldn't pick NI born players, but should take a look at the bigger picture.

Eh ? its about identity .............if you believe your identity is Northern Irish then play for northern ireland, if you dont then play for us it cant be any more simplier

Not interested in one side at the moment, and to be fair religion is irellevent to both teams
22/12/2011, 12:31 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Did you really bother to read Rodgers comments?

"the reason my son is playing for the Republic is simple - they asked him while he was never asked to play for Northern Ireland"

Rodgers Jnr will shortly have the opportunity to play for Northern Ireland.

When he was interviewed recently on Newstalk, Brendan mentioned that Anton was also eligible for Scotland, but he didn't think Anton would change his allegiance
22/12/2011, 12:33 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

Many people have the opportunity to play for NI and many decline to do so.

So what?

No different to those who have the opportunity to play for the South, but decline to do so.

I expect to see Rodgers Jnr in a Northern Ireland shirt in the not too distant future.
22/12/2011, 12:35 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

When he was interviewed recently on Newstalk, Brendan mentioned that Anton was also eligible for Scotland, but he didn't think Anton would change his allegiance

In the words of Brendan, his son's current allegiance to the South "is not something that can't be rectified".
22/12/2011, 12:43 PM
punkrocket

That's if he doesn't decline to do so.
22/12/2011, 12:56 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator

Can you elaborate on this?

Hold on, what is this so-called "bigger picture"?

You live in Derry, you shouldn't really need me to explain this one to you.
22/12/2011, 1:05 PM
punkrocket

Shouldn't this be in the Irish League section?
22/12/2011, 1:16 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In the words of Brendan, his son's current allegiance to the South "is not something that can't be rectified".

only if he thinks it needs to be rectified, which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment
22/12/2011, 1:35 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

only if he thinks it needs to be rectified, which doesn't seem to be the case at the moment

I think Uncle Tom has already been to see the player, with Brendan's blessing.

We'll see what transpires in the New Year
22/12/2011, 1:36 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

That's if he doesn't decline to do so.

Naturally.
22/12/2011, 1:47 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

More fundamentally it is implicit in the very existence of this thread that someone playing for Cliftonville with the name of Donnelly would be more likely to play for us than an upcoming prospect at Linfield or Crusaders from a unionist background.

Plenty of players from a nationalist background at both Linfield & Crusaders - at various age levels.
22/12/2011, 2:30 PM
BonnieShels

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_denilson

I thought it was odd that he didn't even Thank him once! Despite his reverence..... :)

Unfortunately you can't thank anyone in the mobile skin. I will have yo wait until I'm on a pc.
22/12/2011, 2:54 PM
punkrocket

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16291885.stm

Glad to see the price has jumped somewhat. Strange bit of business management from Cliftonville last night though, not giving him any time on the pitch with scouts from Leicester and Arsenal over to see him.
22/12/2011, 3:07 PM
Ol� Ol�

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

More fundamentally it is implicit in the very existence of this thread that someone playing for Cliftonville with the name of Donnelly would be more likely to play for us than an upcoming prospect at Linfield or Crusaders from a unionist background.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Plenty of players from a nationalist background at both Linfield & Crusaders - at various age levels.

The original poster wasn't disputing that in the slighest, they were simply specifying the Unionist contingent of the respective clubs and the unlikelihood that any one of them would consider to represent the Republic.
22/12/2011, 4:54 PM
Deckydee

I agree McShane is a terrible defender

Can we talk about anything else on this site?
22/12/2011, 6:04 PM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16291885.stm

Glad to see the price has jumped somewhat. Strange bit of business management from Cliftonville last night though, not giving him any time on the pitch with scouts from Leicester and Arsenal over to see him.

Hmm, I'd be skeptical over how much "considerably higher" is when it comes to Everton. They are not exactly what you'd call "flush".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckydee

I agree McShane is a terrible defender

Can we talk about anything else on this site?

Don't fret, just...ignore.
22/12/2011, 6:06 PM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

You live in Derry, you shouldn't really need me to explain this one to you.

I understand things, not every thing. I'd just like you to be clearer, if only for the sake of other posters. Let's call it taking a gestalt approach.
22/12/2011, 11:33 PM
Mr_Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16291885.stm

Glad to see the price has jumped somewhat. Strange bit of business management from Cliftonville last night though, not giving him any time on the pitch with scouts from Leicester and Arsenal over to see him.

I always thought that protecting your assets, was a fundamental business management principle. :)
23/12/2011, 7:44 AM
DannyInvincible

'Up your offer for Rory Donnelly': http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/of...ail/story.html

Quote:

SWANSEA City will need to up their offer for Rory Donnelly after Everton stole a march in the race to sign the striker.

Everton boss David Moyes has made an increased bid for the highly-rated young Cliftonville striker, who has held talks with both clubs and Liverpool.

The Northern Irish club confirmed that Everton�s offer was �considerably higher� than Swansea�s as the two Merseyside clubs emerged as favourites to land the 19-year-old.

Swansea had a bid thought to be around �100,000 accepted for the forward, but Everton and Liverpool upped the stakes by offering larger fees, understood to be no less than �150,000.

Donnelly and his agent were discussing personal terms with all three clubs last night, and Cliftonville expect a deal to be completed today.

�Everton�s bid is considerably higher than Swansea�s,� said Cliftonville chairman Gerard Lawlor. �There is a major difference in the bids. They are miles apart. My job is to do the best thing for Cliftonville. It�s not all about money � it�s a great opportunity for Rory.

�We will be sticking to the deadline and a deal will be concluded today.�

Looks like a deal will be concluded today then.
23/12/2011, 7:53 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

My point is that we are beginning to expect Northern "nationalists" to follow the Gibson, Duffy, Wilson trail and this expectation might be unreasonable and ultimately unheplful for community relationships in NI. Manny players with "nationalist" backgrounds and cultural outlooks have played and will play for NI.The spectre of Ireland's two football teams becoming the international equivalent of Celtic and Rangers is what troubles me, and it's the basis of my past gripes with the
likes of Ealing Green and Gather Round who are seemingly blind to the continuing sectarian excesses of many diehard NI supporters.

I don't think anyone is expecting anything of anyone. People might hope the likes of Donnelly will pin their futures with us, but to describe it as an expectation would be to misunderstand and overstate. Everyone here acknowledges it's the lad's personal decision and, no matter how much of a disappointment it might be for some on a selfish level, no-one's going to get on his back or throw abuse/accusations of treachery in his direction if he decides to play for the IFA. Liam Boyce, for example, had a thread on here but nobody got on his back for not having declared for the FAI.

In what way exactly might the two sides become any more of an international equivalent of the Old Firm than they may already be and what is your evidence for this? Due to the nature of the relationship between the two main identities on the island, it's no major surprise that their relationship in international football bears some crossover with or has the hallmarks of the Old Firm. Many Ireland fans happen to support Celtic and many NI fans happen to support Rangers. You could make the same general comparison with clubs like Derry City and Linfield. We don't really need sociology lessons to understand why these associations already exist, nor are football clubs/associations the root cause of tension. You may argue they can act as vehicles but then all vehicles are prone to being hi-jacked. Unionists are suspicious of the Irish tricolour and the Irish language, for example, not because they are inherently offensive, but because they view them as being bedfellows of militant Irish republicanism. Their defenders will argue that these symbols (or vehicles) have merely been hi-jacked and are not the preserve of militant republicans alone.

Acknowledgement and respect of cultural differences is essential to seeing and realising this "bigger picture" of which you speak. The IFA dragging Daniel Kearns to CAS in order to try and force those in a similar position to him to play for NI or no-one along with the association's talk prior to and during that saga was the ignorant, intransigent and disrespectful type of behaviour that was damaging inter-community relations more than any selection of willing northern-born Irish nationals by the FAI ever could. It must be remembered, the FAI don't drag nationalists off to Dublin kicking and screaming in the back of a van; these players wish to represent their country and declare for the FAI entirely of their own volition. The FAI are all about player choice; that's how it has always been for posters here too. From the Kearns affair, the IFA just came across as vindictive, stuck-in-the-mud unionists saying again to young nationalists what those who they resembled always said best; "No!"

Obviously, the PR damage this was doing to the IFA's image within the nationalist community dawned upon them soon enough after their escapade and they've since employed a completely different tack where they've acknowledged and accepted the right of northern-born Irish nationals to declare for the FAI. Instead of insulting the wishes of young nationalists and trying to shift responsibility by characterising the FAI as the bad guys, they now focus on trying to convince nationalists that they're in the process of "cleaning up their own back yard", as it were.

GR's always been reasonable and I'm sure he'd have no qualms in acknowledging the IFA is in no position to be resting on its laurels as far as it's FFA campaign is concerned. That's not to deny obvious progress either. EG hasn't been around since before NI played Serbia away, if memory serves me correctly.

Quote:

My preferance would be for a single team especially as the IFA / FAI schism was not exclusively about partition and both teams have at different times picked players from both sides of the border.

And how do you think that would that impact upon community relations? NI fans certainly don't want it; not even reasonables like NB and GR want it. Are most Ireland fans even in favour? It wouldn't interest me at present. We have our de facto all-Ireland team anyway whilst NI have their team. It keeps both sets happy. Calls for a single all-island association merely stir the pot.

Quote:

But in the mean time (and I know its heresy to some on this site) maybe we shouldn't pick NI born players, but should take a look at the bigger picture.

You're free to express and debate your opinions here; there is no set orthodoxy. However, it could be construed as insulting, for want of a better word, to Irish nationals eager to declare for the FAI to have the FAI inform them they're not interested simply because of their birthplace. Anyway, as things stand, I don't think the "bigger picture" is being impacted upon negatively by this any more so than anything else is impacting upon it. You're confusing a symptom for a cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator

Rodgers has also recently said he doesn't like the Irish national team (s) question because of the political baggage that is inherently attached.

'Tis always difficult to remove such "baggage" from international football; after all, the international game is founded on the existence of competing nations, or political entities, in other words.
23/12/2011, 9:05 AM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

'Tis always difficult to remove such "baggage" from international football; after all, the international game is founded on the existence of competing nations, or political entities, in other words.

Indeed. If I recall correctly, Rodgers' comments in this regard came in response to whether he would take the Ireland job if he were offered it (presumably pre-Trapattoni's new contract). He also complained about the Irish media, saying that every little detail to do with Irish football is dominated by politics.
I think Rodgers would happily take either the NI or Ireland job if the money was good enough. Likewise, I get the impression he's happy for his son to play football for any association for which he is eligible, provided he's playing.
23/12/2011, 8:10 PM
DannyInvincible

It appears no deal with Everton was finalised today then. Brendan Rodgers also expressed his disappointment to the BBC after Donnelly's agents had "decided the fee [with Swansea] was no longer agreed".

'Brendan Rodgers upset by dispute over Rory Donnelly fee': http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16322376.stm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predator

He also complained about the Irish media, saying that every little detail to do with Irish football is dominated by politics.

Is this true? I wouldn't really agree. It's obviously more of an every-day issue for the IFA - that's understandable given the context - but nationalist-unionist politics don't really dominate coverage south of the border unless someone happens to kick up a fuss about the eligibility of northern-born Irish nationals every once in a while.
24/12/2011, 1:12 AM
Scooby Doo

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

'Brendan Rodgers upset by dispute over Rory Donnelly fee': http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16322376.stm

.

What is the craic with the increasing prevalence of the use of the frankly, at this stage, cringe-inducing phrase, 'Northern Irish'? Used at least three times in that article. A bunkum term that gets my goat, big time.
24/12/2011, 3:44 AM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby Doo

What is the craic with the increasing prevalence of the use of the frankly, at this stage, cringe-inducing phrase, 'Northern Irish'? Used at least three times in that article.

It's all down to an OWC letter writing campaign.
24/12/2011, 7:42 AM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby Doo

What is the craic with the increasing prevalence of the use of the frankly, at this stage, cringe-inducing phrase, 'Northern Irish'? Used at least three times in that article. A bunkum term that gets my goat, big time.

It's used 4 times I think.

Quote:

The 19-year-old striker is set to leave the Northern Irish club in January,

Quote:

Cliftonville boss Tommy Breslin believes Northern Irishman Rodgers could yet get his man,

Quote:

"The Northern Irish link with Brendan probably helped too."

Quote:

Everton became favourites to sign the Northern Irishman, who has also held talks with Liverpool.

What's wrong with it?
25/12/2011, 12:15 AM
French Toasht

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

OK IFK. I know you may regard this as ex post facto validation of my point, but I would submit that the above post clearly does suggest that Northern "nationalists" (not a term that I introduced to these discussions) should / would naturally choose to opt to play for Ireland rather than NI. More fundamentally it is implicit in the very existence of this thread that someone playing for Cliftonville with the name of Donnelly would be more likely to play for us than an upcoming prospect at Linfield or Crusaders from a unionist background.

Despite what the media may try to portray, NI is, always has been and will continue to be for the forseeable future a particularly polarised society, so I don't think its outlandish at all to "expect" a nationalist lad, from a nationalist community, playing for a nationalist club to want to play for Ireland.

Now this may/ may not transpire to be the case and I can only speak for Ireland fans on here in saying that you'll never find anyone wishing bad luck upon any player who opts to play for NI over Ireland. The same unfortunately can not be said of the NI fans. See NI fans singing about Darren Gibson at a match not even involving Ireland ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLc-SnVZvs

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I don't think anyone is expecting anything of anyone. People might hope the likes of Donnelly will pin their futures with us, but to describe it as an expectation would be to misunderstand and overstate. Everyone here acknowledges it's the lad's personal decision and, no matter how much of a disappointment it might be for some on a selfish level, no-one's going to get on his back or throw abuse/accusations of treachery in his direction if he decides to play for the IFA. Liam Boyce, for example, had a thread on here but nobody got on his back for not having declared for the FAI.

I agree and disagree with this point. I disagree to the extent that, like suggested above, as any betting man would, I come from the standpoint, that nationalist lads would want to represent Ireland over NI, (given external factors like talent, ability and opportunities with ROI being limited by comparison to NI, not being relevant to the debate). But I agree 100% that you won't find Ireland fans making accusations of treachery against any player who does opt to play for NI, and going further than that, you will find alot of goodwill towards the player and Ireland fans wishing him the best of luck with his career with NI.
25/12/2011, 2:29 PM
Crosby87

Donnelly used to represent NI but he took an arrow to the knee.
25/12/2011, 7:46 PM
Lionel Ritchie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newryrep

It would be expected that nationalists would declare for Ireland and non nationalists wouldnt.- That is all really, ........its not difficult to comprehend though plenty seem to have trouble

I comprehend it -I'm just a little uncomfortable with the idea (or terminology) that anyone nationalist or other from north of the border is 'expected' to play for us. I see northern players as having a right that they can exercise as they wish and see fit pertinent their own unique circumstance. But a right weighted with expectation of conformity in a particular direction is no right or freedom at all. It's just another straight-jacket or shoe horn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

Anyway regardless of who he ends up playing for internationally I hope that Cliftonville have plenty of after sales stuff in the contract to extract a bit of mileage from the sale as �100,000, the figure swansea are said to have offered, is pretty risible for such a a prospect.

Absolutely. The money Irish clubs get compared to even non-league clubs in Britain is madness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In the words of Brendan, his son's current allegiance to the South "is not something that can't be rectified".

If such an eventuallty resolves to it's implied conclusion I hope it'll draw a close to gurning about player 'poaching' and an acknowledgment that that the current situation, imperfect and lumpen as it may sometimes seem, is about the best and fairest solution available to all.
25/12/2011, 8:20 PM
youngirish

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In the words of Brendan, his son's current allegiance to the South "is not something that can't be rectified".

Surely you wouldn't condone such a thing Not Brazil after all the FAI money that's gone into the development of such a prospect. I can see hate songs being written up by the ROI fans as we speak at the thought of such a defection.

Or on second thoughts I doubt anyone south of the border would give a ****.
26/12/2011, 12:10 AM
Ol� Ol�

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/talent-scout-rory-donnellycliftonville-6281361.html

Decent article but shows a somewhat clouded interpretation of the 6 counties issue. But that's to be expected.
26/12/2011, 10:15 AM
Predator

"... the league's top side, Ballymena United"
Sloppy.
26/12/2011, 11:03 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by French Toasht;1561775 I don't think its outlandish at all to "expect" a nationalist lad, from a nationalist community, [B

playing for a nationalist club [/B]to want to play for Ireland.

Since when did Cliftonville FC become "a nationalist club"?

What does that term mean, exactly?
26/12/2011, 12:34 PM
Predator

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fly

It's all down to an OWC letter writing campaign.

Is that something launched after weeks of tiresome complaining about anything to do with "the Irish Republic" being reported on BBC?
26/12/2011, 2:31 PM
French Toasht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Since when did Cliftonville FC become "a nationalist club"?

What does that term mean, exactly?

They draw their fanbase from almost exclusively the nationalist community, in the same way as Linfield draw their support almost exclusively from the unionist community.

What is wrong with labelling a club nationalist, when that's what they patently are. Would you take issue with Athletico Bilbao being described as a Basque club?
27/12/2011, 9:24 AM
Not Brazil

[QUOTE=French Toasht;1561854]
What is wrong with labelling a club nationalist, when that's what they patently are.QUOTE]

That's interesting.

Hopefully Mr Parker will look in.

I thought Cliftonville FC were simply a football club, welcoming to all.
27/12/2011, 7:39 PM
Mr_Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Since when did Cliftonville FC become "a nationalist club"?

What does that term mean, exactly?

I was wondering that myself. it's not like we are a GAA Club or anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by French Toasht

They draw their fanbase from almost exclusively the nationalist community, in the same way as Linfield draw their support almost exclusively from the unionist community.

What is wrong with labelling a club nationalist, when that's what they patently are. Would you take issue with Athletico Bilbao being described as a Basque club?

Basque is a region, It's nothing like the stereotyping your at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by French Toasht

What is wrong with labelling a club nationalist, when that's what they patently are.

Everything. Cliftonville are nothing more than a football club.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That's interesting.

Hopefully Mr Parker will look in.

I thought Cliftonville FC were simply a football club, welcoming to all.

We are. We've even welcomed Bohemians. :)

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