Irish national identity or Irish national identities?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

How does that contradict? He's claiming, or at least implying, an exclusive right; I'm not.

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It contradicts because you are objecting to how Danny's chooses to define his "Irishness". You state that neither you or anybody else has exclusive rights to "Irishness" but that in itself is defining the parameters of Irishness to suit your interpretation. If nobody has exclusive rights on Irishness, it's interpretation is then open to the individual. By telling Danny to accept (your) reality, you're forcing your definition of "Irishness" on him (exclusive rights?).

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I didn't go personally (saving for Estonia). Doesn't their currency differ from Copenhagen's only in the same sense that Scottish and NI banks issues their own Sterling notes? Everyone speaks as well as understands Danish, do they not?

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Yes it has the same value as the Danish Crown but nonetheless they print their own currency.

Everyone speaks and understands English as well. Scandinavians have a tendency to speak more than one language.

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Originally Posted by IFK 101

It contradicts because you are objecting to how Danny's chooses to define his "Irishness"

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No, I'm disagreeing with him not accepting my definition of me as Irish. He can define himself as he pleases.

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You state that neither you or anybody else has exclusive rights to "Irishness" but that in itself is defining the parameters of Irishness to suit your interpretation

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I'm not excluding anyone. He is. I'm not restricting anyone else identifying themselves as Irish.

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If nobody has exclusive rights on Irishness, it's interpretation is then open to the individual

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The right to include yourself doesn't suggest a parallel right to exclude others.

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By telling Danny to accept (your) reality, you're forcing your definition of "Irishness" on him (exclusive rights?)

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This is a bit melodramatic. I'm not forcing anything on him. If he continues to think other Irish people's Irishness is alien, it's his loss. It wil also likely detract from his other arguments here, on eligibility etc.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

He can define himself as he pleases.....

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..... as long as he is accepting of your definitions.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm not excluding anyone. He is. I'm not restricting anyone else identifying themselves as Irish.

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... as long as how they define their Irishness is inclusive of your definitions.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm not forcing anything on him. If he continues to think other Irish people's Irishness is alien, it's his loss. It wil also likely detract from his other arguments here, on eligibility etc.

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Melodramatic. No?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

If he continues to think other Irish people's Irishness is alien, it's his loss. It wil also likely detract from his other arguments here, on eligibility etc.

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How so? I'm satisfied my view of Irish nationality doesn't compromise or conflict with my arguments on player eligibility. I simply don't see Irishness as a sub-set of Britishness. Nationalists in the north can, of course, identify as British and Irish if they wish, but it wouldn't make them British Irish; it would make them British and Irish.

Danny- I meant that your very comprehensive and convincing explanation of eligibility (how inclusive it is, in a nutshell) contrasts with saying, effectively 'Anyone who claims to be both Irish and British isn't as Irish as me'. It's exclusive. They contradict. Wider media will pick that sort of thing up.

If I say I'm British Irish, I don't expect you to necessarily like it, but it's 100% true nonetheless. Part of Ireland's part of Britain, I and my broadly like-minded ancestors have been living in it for centuries.

Adams wants Northerners to have the right to vote in the presidential election - personally, I'm not convinced, as what grounds would allow them vote in this, but not in a Dáil election?

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Adams wants Northerners to have the right to vote in the presidential election - personally, I'm not convinced, as what grounds would allow them vote in this, but not in a Dáil election?

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Every Irish citizen should be able to vote for a president who under the constitution is supposed to represent the Irish nation, as opposed to the Irish state.

Indeed, if a Northerner can become president then a Northerner should be able to vote in a presidential election.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Danny- I meant that your very comprehensive and convincing explanation of eligibility (how inclusive it is, in a nutshell) contrasts with saying, effectively 'Anyone who claims to be both Irish and British isn't as Irish as me'. It's exclusive. They contradict. Wider media will pick that sort of thing up.

If I say I'm British Irish, I don't expect you to necessarily like it, but it's 100% true nonetheless. Part of Ireland's part of Britain, I and my broadly like-minded ancestors have been living in it for centuries.

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No, no. To be clear, I don't disagree that people can be both British (as channelled through the UK) and Irish (as channelled through independent Ireland), or that their Irishness is any less Irish than my own. Children born to Irish-born parents in England, for example, are both British and Irish. To me, those two independent entities are different from the solitary entity of British Irish or Northern Irish with which I see you as identifying as a sub-set or subsidiary regional identity of your British national identity. Or at least, that's how I would term what you consider to be your "regional Irishness" in order to distinguish it from the national entity with which I identify.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Released yesterday PP.

It seems more and more Catholics see their long term future best served in the Union - only 33% of Catholics now view Irish Unity as their long term preference.

They can bring on that Border Poll any time they like.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16012932.html

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In fairness, the fact that the research was done last October/November really calls the reliability of that particular finding into question. The NILTS is very well respected, but the timing was very unfortunate for them.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

In fairness, the fact that the research was done last October/November really calls the reliability of that particular finding into question. The NILTS is very well respected, but the timing was very unfortunate for them.

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Each of the previous NILT Surveys indicate a significant majority of people who view the long term future of Northern Ireland to be within the Union - that has been the case consistently.

The 2010 Survey indicates that that majority is at it's highest since the NILT Surveys began.

I'd welcome a Border Poll anytime.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Adams wants Northerners to have the right to vote in the presidential election - personally, I'm not convinced, as what grounds would allow them vote in this, but not in a Dáil election?

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Two obvious problems: it would be attacked by opponents in the RoI as 'representation without taxation', and by the further diaspora as potentially discriminating. It might also be vulnerable to stunts etc. by unionists.

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.

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I'm a "British" person born and bred in Northern Ireland - I'm proudly Irish.

What is your "conventional definition" of "Irish"?

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition

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Are you Ardee's leading conventional expert then?

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Mainly because they don't want to be

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Pretty much 100% of Ulster unionists identify with the name 'Northern Ireland' and thus with being Northern Irish. It's a very simple idea to grasp.

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If people want to be 'both', more fool them

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Don't be silly. They're self-evidently both British and Irish, no foolishness involved. Anyway and more generally (as NB says), dual nationality is widely recognised Worldwide.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Released yesterday PP.

It seems more and more Catholics see their long term future best served in the Union - only 33% of Catholics now view Irish Unity as their long term preference.

They can bring on that Border Poll any time they like.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16012932.html

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Thanks NB, all enlightening stuff. The timing is interesting, as pointed out elsewhere. I wonder what the effect will be in subsequent polls when the ConDem cuts kick in, the subvention to NI is slashed and all those middle-class nationalists lose their civil service jobs in Stormont or wherever.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Are you Ardee's leading conventional expert then?



Pretty much 100% of Ulster unionists identify with the name 'Northern Ireland' and thus with being Northern Irish. It's a very simple idea to grasp.



Don't be silly. They're self-evidently both British and Irish, no foolishness involved. Anyway and more generally (as NB says), dual nationality is widely recognised Worldwide.

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No idea about the Ardee reference or whether your answer makes much sense in general.

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'm a "British" person born and bred in Northern Ireland - I'm proudly Irish.

What is your "conventional definition" of "Irish"?

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Now, now Wolfman. Definitions of "irishness" are changing.

As we both know, its possible to be a member of the Wolf community and still be proudly Irish, for instance.

I don't particularly want to get into any arguments on this - just want to state things from my own perspective.

Although from Northern Ireland and a unionist background I would always describe my self as being Irish, or sometimes Northern Irish - don't really see the big deal about it, Irish is always simpler when abroad etc. I carry a UK passport, but I don't think this means that I can't be Irish.

I grew up in Belfast, my grandfather was born in County Monaghan before partition and my family came from Leitrim before that. So Its not as if i don't have the "qualifications" to be Irish.

As with others from a similar background I would not choose to hold an Irish passport, as this I don't believe it would make me any more Irish, simply a citizen of the Irish Republic, a sovereign state, within the island of Ireland.

I think this is the crux of the issue, just as Northern nationalists don't identify with the ethos and the symbols of Northern Ireland, I can't identify with the ethos/symbols/founding principles of the Republic of Ireland. Its the whole Padraig Pearse / blood sacrifice thing vs King& country at the Somme I suppose.

That said however, I do think we are all bound by a shared history and I think events in the world and the rise of the new big powers in the east will actually serve to bring North and South closer together in this century than ever before. And I do think attitudes are changing already, Enda Kenny's comments on the Vatican this week being a prime example.

If there ever were to be a single Irish state it would have to be a completely new country as it were, not just case of the south taking over the North. We would need to start from scratch, a new Constitution, flag and anthem etc. Also probably on some sort of federal model. Big changes and sacrifices all round.

It's gonna be fun in years to come when we have people from a Polish background choosing to play for Poland over Ireland ;)

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Originally Posted by Andyh

If there ever were to be a single Irish state it would have to be a completely new country as it were, not just case of the south taking over the North. We would need to start from scratch, a new Constitution, flag and anthem etc. Also probably on some sort of federal model. Big changes and sacrifices all round.

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There's a lot about unionism I don't like, but I have to respect how you and others view yourself. There's no set definition of Irishness and I see you as Irish as me, even if you have a pre-fix of Britain before you defining yourself Irish and that's your right. I'm just interested when you say about a possible federal model for any unified Ireland. Have ever read the old Sinn Féin policy, Éire Nua? You probably haven't but I'm just curious if you have. I know David Ervine thought it was a good document as it espoused a federal Ireland with a nine-county Ulster Parliament to give a sizeable portion of a power to unionists within their own province.