Why, is Conor yet another FF head refusing to cooperate with a tribunal?Quote:
Originally Posted by liamon
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Why, is Conor yet another FF head refusing to cooperate with a tribunal?Quote:
Originally Posted by liamon
I still haven't heard any good reason why someone who could give birth ona holiday visa should entitle that child to irish citizenship. Heard William Binchy on the radio opposing the amendment yesterday but hes a pro-lifer so he'd probably grant citizenship to any child concieved in Ireland too :rolleyes:
Agree that the numbers of "abuse" matter little cos who says 500 or 1000 or 10000 is too many?
I haven't heard any good reason why it shouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I haven't heard good enough reason to go changing our constitution.
p.s. shouldn't this thread be locked for today?
This isn't anti-FF stuff. I've already stated that the Jew thing is silly, and it wasn't meant to be viewed as otherwise. Hell, I even voted for the FF-PD government last time out.
The Royston remark was my limited attempt at humour, deriving from my view that you were not debating the points I put forward. Instead, you utilised evasion and bluff.
You dismiss my first 2 points without explaining the reason why we need this ammendment. Still waiting for a comeback on point 3 - We've frequently taken US citienship when we could get it, so why can't others take Irish citizenship under the same conditions. Point 5 - you haven't explained why we are rushing this. "it may be something we don't regret" is not an answer.
And now my biggest worry:
Point 4 is critical and this is the one I really want an answer on. Why leave the issue open to vague, future legislative change? Why not change it to something that is clear and focussed. If the current ammendment is passed, then our citizenship is open to future alteration without the consent of the people. Is this acceptable to you?
I apologise to everyone for letting Conor avoid the real issues around the referendum. Of course, it's only Labour supporters that tow the party line. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
1) Where's the evidence that this is needed? Please don't repeat the same line about the No side finding it out - it's up to the Yes side to prove that the change is needed, not the other way round.
2) Why the rush? Could it not have been debated fully and held later in the year?
3) Who's pushing the rush job? Apparently it's not Masters of the Maternity Hospitals, or other EU Countries, so is it anyone bar the extreme right of both Government Parties?
4) Why not propose the "solution" to the "problem" as an amendment to the constitution rather than the open ended legislation route? Or isn't there enough time?
Believe it or not, I can see that the current situation is an anomaly to a certain extent (although FF have taken enough credit for the GFA, that they have to shoulder some of the blame if it is a problem). However, rushing through a referendum, with no concrete proposal for the change, with no debate, with no figures to back the case makes it impossible for me to support this amendment. A properly reasoned proposal, with all the issues properly debated and there may be a chance of support from the left (including me).
I heard once that the Chinese calculate your age from conception. Anyway, you've got a point here. If Ireland is pro-life surely this should come into the equasion. BTW, I also find it hard to believe that after the case Fajujonu v. Minister for Justice of 1987, which utilised the constitution to protect the family, the consitution has been ridden roughshod over (i.e. no changes to it regardign the family) with recent deportations/taken into care of Irish citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Anyway as an Irish citizen I would like a vote on the matter. Can't be argued that as someone living in another country it doesn't concern me.
How does it concern you then? Won't effect you or your kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Vote yes because:
- Irish citizenship should be worth more than people getting it automatically just cos they born here. many people like myself would have had parents in UK in the 70's - just cos i was born there why should i have a right to British citizenship?
- Constitution is old & no harm updating it a lot more. The Dail is elected in the present so should represent the irish people more than 65 year old document. The french are currently on their 5th (1958) Constitution which proves don't need to stick with just because...
A slightly bizarre statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
It's what it's being updated with is what concerns me.
Agree that it's a ood thing to update the constitution, when necessary.
But this alteration is not necessary and I think it's flawed.
It allows a future government to define citizenship through legislation without consulting the people. Why is it necessary to transfer this right from the people to the legislators? Conor, I'm still waiting for an answer on this point.
Strangely enough, I find myself agreeing with ye, Conor. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
Why this reverence for the Constitution? Can't understand where the idea that it should be changed as little as possible comes from.
Liamon, the Constitution itself is fatally flawed. Allow me to quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by liamon
"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial...."
That's an absolute disgrace, to say the least.
I'd also take issue with the make-up of the Seanad and private property laws.
The Constitution, despite what some of ye may think, is not a sacred document, it is a living embarassment to our nation.
If I'd my way I'd burn the feckin thing and start afresh.
How does it concern you then? My status of Irish citizenship is no different than any Irish citizen born in Ireland, apart from it initially costing my kids twice as much for their first passports and that I have to reside in the 26C - the same as Irish born ex-pats - to vote in elections or referendums. Your logic is that the people who will lose out from transfering a Ius Soli citizenship to one that centres on Ius Sanguinis, yet still allowing the right for outsiders to gain Irish citizenship AND retain their other citizenship aswell, are the only people entitled to vote. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
No, my point is that the change effects only people actually living in Ireland. In this particular referrendum it doesn't effect Ius Sanguinis, only Ius Soli, so it doesn't effect you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Should you have been able to vote on Divorce or Abortion which also doesn't effect you? You can divorced, your missus could get an abortion because you live in the UK. What gives you the right to dictate to those at home how they should live their lives?
Ditto Elections - if you're not living in the state, then you don't have to live under the Government that is elected. Conceivably the ex-pats could swing an election vote, so how is that fair on the people that have to pay taxes and live under that regime?
Basing it on residency is the only equitable way for the people that have to live under the conditions that result from the votes.
The change affects people with no Irish blood. How does that affect you any more than me seeing that I pay the same 'tax' as you for my passport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Ireland again seems to buck the trends with regards to other countries but as someone already said we don't want to follow anyone else's lead in case we have to gas Jews as well (while at the same time being brainwashed by a multitude of foreign newspapers, television and let's not forget, football). :rolleyes: The reason the ex-pats are denied the vote is as you rightly point out simply their numeracy. That is why Britain, Spain, Germany, the US, South Africa and I would guess most other democratic countries are adult enough to allow all their citizens - inside and outside the country - a vote whereas Ireland dare not do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It has got f*ck all to do with taxes or any other mundane matter. What about the people who have left after paying taxes whereas others that have stayed have not paid a cent in their lives, people with property and large-scale investment, the older gneration forced to move out through lack of jobs? As for living or not living under the regime, oh yeah I'm going to vote for the Irish Nazi Party because I'd really like to see the country go to the wall. The disenfranchising of Irish citizens when they leave Ireland is a damning reminder of Ireland's inability in the past to stem emigration. Bertie has gone on record (back in 1997) as saying more or less he's sh*t scared of such a scenario as you described. I would suggest that no other politician would be happy with it either (apart from Gerry maybe?)
[QUOTE=brendy_éire]
Liamon, the Constitution itself is fatally flawed. Allow me to quote:
"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, ......"
That's an absolute disgrace, to say the least.
The Constitution, despite what some of ye may think, is not a sacred document, it is a living embarassment to our nation.
[QUOTE]
You're going to hell, ya heathen. :D
Look, when it was written, we were a predominantly Catholic country and nearly everyone went to Mass. Even now, there are a lot of people arguing that the preamble to the proposed EU constitution (awful idea) should have a reference to God in it. So it's not that embarrassing. If you want to live in a secular world, move to France. ;)
Aside from that, I agree that the constitution isn't perfect. But I don't think adding another flawed amendment is going to make it better.
We shouldn't follow other countries, just because they allow it to happen. I think it's perfectly valid to suggest that the people who have to live under the regime's should be the only one's able to vote, as they are directly effected by the result.
What impact does it have on you who's in Government in Ireland?
I'm sure a lot of other countries give the vote to ex-pats cos they won't make up a huge percentage. If we did the same & allowed those 10's of millions claiming irish citizenship in the US it would kinda screw up the political process here. Then again maybe the citizenship law would have to get stricter for them to prevent them having a vote?
That is of course your opinion, but most democratic countries do not have a problem with emigrants voting. Their influence in, taxation to and the repercussions from are the same as the Irish. Only difference is that the Irish emigrant block is in comparison to the resident block far greater. As for the impact of government, to me personally, nada. But what if I was planning to move to Ireland? What if I had property there? What if I was born and brought up in Ireland and had moved away through no choice but to get a job? The choice of government would be important. I could choose a government that is likely to improve the wealth and prosperity of the 26 county state and keep the value of my property steady, rather than one that is going to set it back to the eighties, begging the US government to make a special exception to the excess of the population. The choice of government here would, indeed does, have a significant impact on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
The tens of millions in America you talk about would not be entitled to citizenship. Only third generation or their descendents if they had Irish citizenship on their birth. As for stricter citizenship, the only strictness is going to be towards aliens, not anyone with Irish blood (even at 5th/6th generation this often includes all the first generation of ancestors that were not born in the new land).Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Personally it's immaterial to me as someone who hasn't lived in Ireland to get the vote but for those that grew up there I think it is laughable - although understandable - that they are denied it. However the political process would not be screwed up too much if there were seperate seats for the emigrant vote in either the Dail or the Seanad.
I heard recently that there are 1.2million people of Irish BIRTH living abroad! :eek:
Fair solution would be that anyone who lived in the country & had a vote before they left would be able to retain it abroad - maybe they'd lose after 10 years depending on numbers. We'd probably need another referndum for this anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
The US constitution would appear to be one of the worst around. Theres virtually no amendments (last one in 50's or 60's i think) to it cos is so complicated to get an Amendment before the voters - need so many states to vote for the proposal first combined with variety of majorities in federal politicial houses. Apparently thats why they saying George Bush no hope of even getting a nationwide vote on banning gay marriages over there.
Spot on. Bertie's scared of what giving all Irish citizens a vote would mean to his party.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Pete's idea sounds alright for people living abroad. Though I think everyone in the 6 counties should have a vote regardless. I'd be nice to have at least some say over how we're governed. There's some talk of giving us Seanad seats or votes in the Presidential election.
Bendy,you live in Donegal you plonker! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
It would seem that your education was also an unnecessary drain on our services! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvio
lads its fúckin close up there and i tink itll be like that for the result,jeez we'll get that soon after we voted on those €52million evoting machines....oh wait a min.............. :rolleyes:
I've been watching UK History reruns of BBC's 1997 programme 'Prohibition' which was I believe the last ammendment. While the programme was very distressing - violence towards saloons, beer kegs and Jack Daniels bottles (especially from la Bigada de Roberto Jones) and people suffering from lack of drink - it was a good insight into the most stupid law ever passed. Al Capone, the Real McCoy, 'Prowler' Joe Kennedy? These are the REAL American heroes. They should bring out a set of stamps about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
They should all have a vote, but until re-unification, I'm in favour of those that elect to be Irish citizens having a voice somewhere within the Oireachtas.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
The most important justification for giving emigrants the vote, which I forgot to mention, is the financial help they gave towards the establishment and the subsequent economic stabilising of the 26C state. The whip round in the US when Dev went there and the huge ammount of remmitances sent home during a period where social security and pensions were virtually non-existent.
And whatever opinion you have, if you have the vote, f*cking use it!!
Just until September, mucker. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by corkharps
Your wrong, my sister in law knew a Nigerian woman who told her that she was waiting till late in pregnancy then would fly to Ireland to give birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
I'm sure the people of Ireland don't pay tax to support these freeloaders.
The liberal left have got to accept that they have been out voted 4 to 1 even though the were backed by those democrats Sinn Fein.
Mr condex come home you freeloader.
See here
I wouldn't take much notice of a left wing rag read something the same in the Observer today Ireland unlike the UK has no colonial past.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
I would not consider myself a freeloader I was born here am quite well educated and have payed my taxes for the last twenty years. This is the sort of person Ireland should welcome.
I'm not really in favour of turning Ireland into this so called multi-cultural country, it doesn't work you end up with ghettos and people living parallel lives something like nothern Ireland.
And you claim to live in London? Do you walk around with your head in a bag or something? It's wonderful living in such a thriving multicultural city. There's always something different to see and do. I'd advise everyone try it for at least a couple of years. (Especially you, Tippboy, if you're reading this thread. It'll open your eyes.) I think you're way off the mark here Condex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
:confused: PP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Northern Ireland isnt multi-cultural! Its simply two religions at each others throats.
Irelands history is a history of assimailation. No one here can say thay are of Celtic, Viking, Norman, English Plantation, Hugenot or what ever stock. Thats because they have all been assimilated. You cant tell where youre ancestors come from. Yet its the most recently settled country by human beings in europe. Names might give a hint, but thats all. Tippman doesnt realise that most tipperary and Kilkenny people are descendants of English planters "who became more Irish than the Irish themselves"
I live in Waterford or orginally Vater fjord.
having 5000 estonians or 1000 bulgarians in ireland wont turn us into a mini bulgaria or estonia. all their chidren will be irish as you or me. Is Ivania Balcik not irish?
Except for the poor native Argentian indians who could tell of which stock Argentianians are from except by their surnames.
Multi-culturalism is the sign of a nation's success, not it's failure. Blame the ghettos on the host nation not the immigrants. Don't want the failures of France and Britain? Then educate people - particularly the young - about the positive aspects to a successful economy and society that immigrants make. A strike by first and second generation immigrants in Britain would bring the country to a halt. Don't want a situation in years to come where 2G Romanians in Ireland are supporting every team that Ireland plays in football? Then take the steps to ensure that immigrants and their native born children are assimilated into the country. Thankfully, IMO the majority of the Irish youth is far more sophisticated than it's counterpart in Britain fifty years ago.
With referendum amendment passed 4 to 1 looks like foot.ie isn't representative of the mood of the country afterall :(
Well with a foot.ie turnout of less than 5 percent, predictions can't be made ;)
Perhaps the reason that the No vote was high on foot.ie is that the issue was debated on here and people were infomed. Most people that I spoke ot who voted yes seem to have very little understanding of what they voted for.
I think the people suffered from a lack of communicaiton and real public debate on this issue.
But the world goes on and I'll get over this, just like I came to terms with the passing of the Nice treaty. I'm not still bitter over that. Even though the government ignored the democratic wishes of the electorate first time round. A further nail in the coffin of democracy. Not bitter at all... Honestly.......
You're as ignorant as the yanks. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
and with that sweeping generalisation you add yourself to the ranks of the ignorant :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Unfortunately, a yank has never proven themselves to be otherwise to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
Still, great craic making them think that there are snipers watching them everywhere they go around Derry. :D
So your hatred of capitalism now extends to all who practice it? It's a wonder why the N. Ireland toursim industry doesn't do well with help like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Or are you aginst the tourism industry as just another capitalist ploy?
Wha? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by liamon