to be fair, that was only the third game he's missed all season, and the first game he didn't start since October: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/ClubDetails?clubID=747Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
to be fair, that was only the third game he's missed all season, and the first game he didn't start since October: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/ClubDetails?clubID=747Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
On the McCarthy issue - best not let this one specific issue get blown out of proportion. I think the thread title is a tad melodramatic.
McCarthy is undoubtedly a quality propect but he's still a novice at club level, never mind international level.
I think the McCarthy situation is more symptomatic of a wider issue of who fits the system and who is trusted to play within it.
That said, assuming McCarthy is fully fit, should he play against Wales? Yes.
Is his absence from the fixture effectively rendering Trapps post untenable? No.
There are other players who I'd like to see get a run against Wales.
While its disappointing that McCarthy won't feature, hopefully the fixture can still be utilised by giving some fringe players a run.
You have to laugh really.
McCarthy - playing for one of the worst teams in the Premiership. Described as "a class act". What is he doing playing for Wigan if he is a class act? He's not a bad player and he may turn in to a class act but it's too early to describe him as such. Such hyperbole was also used About Andy Reid currently guesting for mighty Sheffield United or perhaps he has returned from that den of superstars.
There is about as much hope of Trap being sacked as Stan being the next Man U manager. Unless he goes without taking a cent of what is owed to him he is here until the end of his contract because the FAI is in difficult financial position.
Trap may not pick the best players we have or at least include them in the squad. However, if anyone thinks that we would do any better with our squad of mediocre Premiership/Championship players under a different manager, even with the likes of Reid, McCarthy, please name that person. I look at Scotland Wales and think "there but for the grace of God go we".
We have an unbeaten away record and his problems seem to be at hone. His system works well away with the talent we have. It doesn't at home. I am surprised he hasn't been able to work that out yet and perhaps use a different system/players for the home games.
We are still in with a chance of qualification. A play off last campaign was an excellent result and but for a certain handball etc etc we might have made it. Once the campaign is over, his position should be reviewed then. Changing horses in midstream is not a good idea.
For the moment, despite not picking the players we think he should pick, I will continue to support him and the team.
Who beat us 3-0 at home in a competitive game?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That poor Slovakia team got to the WC last 16, something we'd kill for. It was harder to play a talented French team over 2 legs in November when they didn't have 3 weeks cooped up together abroad to implode. Not beating Italy wasn't Trap's fault - poor finishing and poor concentration caused that. I've got criticisms of Trap but I think he barely put a foot wrong in Slovakia. Keane had a stinker and unless the bad defensive organisation at the corner is Trap's fault (it could well have been) not beating Slovakia isn't a stick to beat him with. We had enough experienced players to have seen that game through. I maintain that we played well enough to win that game, we just didn't. I've seen many a team play worse than we did and win.
Trap doesn't seem to know enough about who our best players are / were, or what their attributes are. McShane should never have been picked at full back over Kevin Foley, Keogh should never have been played wide midfield and so on. This, and our tendency to cede initiative when ahead, is what bugs me most.
the last two posts..... some sense at last on this topic
as i said earlier the biggest factor in Trappatonis continued employment should be his results and achievements. He has not overly excited on either count so far. But, despite all my criticisms, i think he should get until the end of this campaign to address this. If he doesnt, then he should go.
To all his apologists can i ask a hypothetical question - what would you think if McCarthy switched allegiance to Scotland as a result of his ommission from Traps squad? To anticipate the answer that we wouldnt want that type of person playing for us, leave that to one side and ask yourself if 5 minutes against Andorra would have been too much to ask for.
why not ask the same question about players like Shane Lowry and Jim O'Brien changing allegiances under Trap's reign?
I'd be really miffed. But it doesn't play on mind - there's simply no evidence whatsoever it will happen.
I do think he should've been capped competitively by now but it's got nothing to do with a potential nationality switch.
well neither of those players were playing regular premiership football at 19 years of age and performing very well in a poor team, were they? Isnt there slightly more at risk?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I agree, no brainer to cap McCarthy. Calling him up for Wales wouldn't tie him, but I guess you're referring to his frustration being the reason for defection. I don't think the allure of playing for Scotland is that great right now tbh.
I'm not an apologist but think that some criticism here is English tabloid stuff. Some of Trap's blind spots are bewildering though.
absolutely. The switching of allegiances is the most drastic result of him not having been capped though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I love this "who do we think we are trying to beat Italy? They were in the WC Final!". What garbage, they couldn't even beat the mighty New Zealand
Russia didn't even qualify for WC. They beat us up. Slovakia beat them and did qualify. But they only managed a draw against us. And Slovakia couldn't beat New Zealand either. So New Zealand = Slovakia > Russia > Ireland...right?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan 82
Italy have quality players, by and large we don't. Poor World Cup doesn't change that.
sometimes the comedic tabloids make a welcome relief from the stern broadsheets though... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Some of the above posts could be cut and paste jobs from the week before the Cyprus away game under Stan. Losing 5-2 away was'nt a bolt from the Blue. There was an underlying problem with both his tactics and team selections. And lets get this straight once and for all. The Slovakia team we played away was missing a number of their best players. They had also just been beaten by Armenia 3-1. We conceded (as in previous games under Trapattoni) a goal from a corner kick. We look vunerable from every corner kick against us which is ridiculous. As for his comments after the Russian defeat saying that no matter what formation he put out it might not have been good enough reeks of defeatism. We have three young players McCarthy, Coleman and Clark who genuinely have the potential to be playing for any of the top 6 sides in the Premiership in the near future. Not since Keane and Duff came on the scene have we had such talent. There is no rule book that says you must first play in a couple of friendlies to get picked to play in competitive games. The three players mentioned should be fast tracked straight into the side.
Is James McCarthy going to turn us into world beaters overnight though? Traps a bit OTT conservative with his squad selections but I'd still rather that than handing out caps like confetti as in the Staunton reign. Even if we gave a few new faces a chance we'd still be doing well to qualify for tournaments. Ciaran Clark, McCarthy and Coleman aren't going to turn us into Spain.
How will we know until they get to play a few games for the senior team. But again look at the players that are being picked. A first division player, a guy not getting his game for Stoke and a guy who was on the bench for Derby in their last game and who played right back when Derby got beaten by Crawley. No justification for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Trap's continuing conservative attitude and picking of experienced players continues to frustrate many including myself, particularly when it comes to friendlies and the upcoming Celtic Cup. We do need to get McCarthy qualified as to lose him would be bloody stupid and the longer we risk it the higher the chances of him reconsidering his options.
No, he will not make us as good as Spain, but his promise along with the likes of Meyler in midfield certainly give me a feeling of excitement for the future. And this to me is the biggest problem with Trap's game plan and the teams he puts out. Where is the excitement? Where is the blooding of future players who will one day lead the team? Trap's objectives are very short term and in truth are boring me to the point of not really being interested.:D
Great post and gives me hope. Skstu, Mr O'Shea and Trapapony and others sussed out the situation before the rest of us and deserve great credit for swimming against the tide of imbeciles (card carrying member myself). Your now a tabloid sensationilist if you question the ability of a very suspect manager. By people who went to same college as Cowen and Fitzpatrick!Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
cough;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Wouldn't surprise me to see him get called up if others pull out, think it was Traps innate conservatism that meant he didn't call him up as he hadn't played a game since his injury when the squad was named. King obviously has no such qualms.
Think there's been an over reacation from people looking for any stick to beat Trapatonni with to suit their own agenda, huge amount of second guessing in elements of the media and on the thread from people who in reality know nothing about the nuances of the situation.....
Sorry conceding 3 goals at home in a competitive game. I actually forgot we pulled 2 back :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Sometimes reading this forum it reminds me of hearing dunphy or giles or andy gray picking out 1 or 2 plays in a game and saying that is the generic systemic problem for that team i.e. taking out a point in isolation and using it as your argument. Everyone does it, good or bad I mean. Anyway the point you have raised is fair enough, one game, one team though and its not an isolated incident, remember that they were missing 3 of their better players, 2 very good players. However as noely has pointed out on numerous occasions we look very suspect from corners and set pieces, to be honest any in swinging ball from a height worries me, and a lot of that has to do with balls being played in over the top and kilbane getting caught out. How did that talented french team do in their previous qualifying campaign? They were very very average and luck enough. Serbia were hardly world beaters as showed in the world cup.
This argument we played the 2 finalists from the previous campaign means very little, at the end of the day you are only as good as your last game - relative to the opposition obviously - might be a bit drastic but a couple of games or more and it backs itself up, not 2, 3, 4 years ago.
What agenda is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
There are elements in the media (Hyland and Fanning for a start) who have used any opportunity possible to have a go at Trapatonni since he got the job ahead of their enligtened preference of Terry Venables......Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Their agenda is to create as negative an atmosphere as they can around this Irish team as far as I can see.
You shouldn't be reading anyone who shows a preference for Venables over Trap. A brain cell will expire with each word comprehended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
:) Very true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sullivinho
You're right, the two finalists argument is fairly meaningless. But the real argument is we played two potentially very good sides, with far better quality players than us, and got very credible results.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
To return to your other (true) point about using arguments in isolation - how come excuses (luck, poor opposition) are made for our good results and we simply performed badly for the good ones? Noely's right, our defending from set plays is concerning and our inability to hold on to a lead is downright hair pullingly frustrating. But Stutts' is right too - we played well in Slovakia and we've played well in other games without getting out due.
There's plenty to be concerned about but enough to keep me optimistic too. Unfortunately this thread is full of hyperbolic extremes of each.
This is Trap at his vindictive best. Got away with it before but heading into our final lap of Euro qualifiers may not be so lucky.
There is no logic to omitting McCarthy for what he describes as a match where fringe players will be used.
With his shunning of Andy Reid since guitar-gate, is it not possible that McCarthy is being taught a lesson (Trap-style) after pulling out of the May friendlies at the RDS?
Wigan said he was too knackered and needed a rest, so surely the lad can't be blamed.
Teaching a lesson is fine to a degree (if done properly) but is it worth it if our Whelan/Green midfield gets further found out in the Macedonia qualifiers and it costs us qualification?
On Monday, Trap said McCarthy's comeback meant it was 'too tight' for him to be considered even tho he's deemed fit enough to travel thousands of miles away for the 21s less than 24 hour later. Sounds like Porkies.
Has everyone who keeps mentioning Green as a starter forgotten that the last starting central midfield partnership was Whelan and Fahey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
No. Knee injury put Green out of last game.
Derby's finest has started all four qualifiers.
I'm not doubting Trap's capacity for vindictiveness and agree that its possible that McCarthy's exclusion is related to his pulling out of the summer training camp etc.
However, if this is the case, then why is Keith Treacy not being subjected to similar treatment from Il Gaffer? Didn't Treacy pull out of an early season squad because of 'tiredness', with news of said pull-out being accompanied by a few eyebrow-raising quotes that prompted many on here to question whether or not he should wear the green again.
McCarthy's 'sins', if they be that, were not on the same level as Treacy's dissent, if I remember correctly.
Take off the tin hat. There's no evidence to suggest McCarthy's omission has anything to do with Trap throwing a wobbly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
As Scooby pointed out, it's not consistent with other players. And Trap's constant references to McCarthy (he talks in far more positive terms and far more frequently about McCarthy than about Andy Reid) are hardly indicative of any vindictiveness.
The anti Trap media is starting to grow. I am not sure how Trap was supposed to get to see games the next day after an international but hey, it is nice to bash the Irish manager:
Evening Herald Article By Paul Hyland
Thursday February 10 2011
ARE you having a laugh, Giovanni? Darron Gibson's words and the perfect summariser for the Ireland manager's continuing and baffling bad-mouthing of James McCarthy.
But there's a bigger problem now than Trapattoni's loose tongue. It goes deeper than that.
Trapattoni and his assistant Marco Tardelli sat together at the Aviva Stadium last night, apparently scouting the opposition for the remaining Nations Cup fixtures this summer and that was really having a laugh.
Russia lost 1-0 to Iran in Abu Dhabi last night. Macedonia were beaten at home by Cameroon and Slovakia, almost unbelievably, lost in Luxembourg.
Surely Ireland's €2m manager could have learned something from travelling to one of those games, particularly Skopje where an African team found a way to beat Macedonia.
Instead, Trapattoni spent a few hours throwing petrol on the McCarthy story and just to add a bit more spice, once again pointed Gibson to the Old Trafford exit door.
Trapattoni's morning-after press conference is established as a more thoughtful and calm forum for discussing the immediate fallout from the last game. But yesterday was very different.
For the first time since he was hired, Trapattoni had to face an accumulation of tough questions, put off in the past out of deference first to his status in the game and more recently to his health.
As ever, his answers were contradictory but a recognisable theme has been established to deal with McCarthy and Gibson.
He spoke of McCarthy once again in disparaging terms; comparing the young Wigan midfielder to himself and Marco Tardelli at 21 and throwing the dreaded agent into the mix.
“We were men at 21. We did not ask an agent to decide for us. He must decide for himself – not the agent,” he said.
Later in an RTÉ interview with Tony O'Donoghue, he hardened his position further and heaped pressure onto McCarthy.
“We cannot force the player to play with us. He is 21 years old. I was a man at 20. I could decide which (club) to play (for). He is a free man, decide. We cannot ask why, why, why. Ask him.”
SPOKEN
But what is it that McCarthy has to decide? Ask him what? Unless Trapattoni knows something the rest of us don't about McCarthy's intentions, there is no issue about his nationality.
The most recent contact with McCarthy by anyone connected with the FAI came from Under-21 boss Noel King and he has indicated that there was no sign of a change of heart.
Trapattoni has not spoken to McCarthy and it would appear that when he claimed that he and Marco Tardelli had “called” him before the Algeria/Paraguay friendly series, he meant that he had called him into the squad.
Worse still, he does not see any value in a face-to-face meeting and he dragged up Stephen Ireland to justify this policy, unfairly bracketing McCarthy with the most extreme example he could find of a player unmoved by the excitement of representing his country.
This is now a farce. Trapattoni is doing nothing more than digging a bigger and bigger hole for himself. He is standing over ill-judged and intemperate remarks and seems happy to rake up deeply sensitive issues to prove some, as yet, unidentifiable point.
He roped Roberto Martinez into his argument when he claimed the Wigan manager told him the decision not to come to Dublin was taken by McCarthy.
In doing so, he revealed details of a private conversation. During all of this, he paused to take aim at Gibson again – not allowing the player to enjoy his fantastic goal for even 24 hours.
“He can do more,” Trapattoni insisted. “He has big potential and the right mentality but I said a year or a year and a half ago that if I were Gibson I would go to another club where I can play continuously.
“With this you can build your mentality. In the end, you need to play, play, play. “You can take confidence from this, but I think he is fantastic.”
You'd never guess. This is washing underwear in public. Take the player to one side and make a point, but does Trapattoni have to share it with the world if the impact is almost certainly going to be a negative one? It was actually six months ago when Trapattoni suggested that Gibson should leave Manchester United and this was the response. “If Trapattoni wants me to move somewhere like Stoke where I'll get more games, but have little chance of winning anything, then I just don't know,” Gibson then said. “To move on from United just doesn't make sense to me.”
INCONSISTENCY
The final and most telling inconsistency in Trapattoni's position is this: Gibson has made his decision to stay at Manchester United. Like Trap and Tardelli, who were “men at 21”, he is in control of his own destiny and made a choice.
Trapattoni believes it is the wrong choice but maybe he should just be a man and respect Gibson's position. Maybe he should just be a man, take a trip to see McCarthy in Wigan and repair the damage he has done.
And while he's at it, be a man and offer an olive branch to Andy Reid. Perhaps he could ask him to have a chat with McCarthy and if there is a need, explain why he is so proud to be an Irishman and how much it hurts to be on the outside looking in.
i am a proud Irish man and hate looking in from the outside too. if Trap thought reid could do a job for us in the way he wants he would be in the squad. he obviously doesntQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
yeah Owlsfan. FFS.
;)
Some Facts worth considering.
-> By FIFA ruling a club cannot prevent a player from playing for their international team, to do so would provoke sanctions. Wigan didn't prevent James linking up with the squad they requested him not to and he obliged, the decision to pull out of the squad was ultimately his.
-> People say its perfectly reasonable for him to do this as keeping his focus on important games for Wigan could be critical to his career but also worth bearing in mind was this was his last chance to show his international manager what he could do prior to important international matches. Ultimately by ensuring he is available for Wigan's important games has ensured he won't be available for Ireland's important games and reasonably so as Trap can't plan a team around a player he has next to no first hand experience with.
-> James had the option to link up with the squad at the very least even with restricted game time as a clause, a 20 minute run out in the second half would have done his fitness no harm and the time spent prior to the game linking up with his international team and manager would have done the world of good. This was again an option he refused and unlike the previous without a clear valid reason.
I feel like the onus is on James in all this, Trapatoni's words might be wild and unfortunate but James's actions are those of a man with questionable commitment to his international team. I feel like McCarthy is the one people should be shaking their fist at right now for pulling out and then refusing to quell speculation about his loyalty but as usual the insecure public go for the manager.
I didn't expect to beat Bulgaria or Slovakia at their place, the point in Bulgaria more or less protected the play-off spot, and was our first ever point out there. If KK hadn't lost the plot, we may have got 6 points instead of 2. Slovakia had just beaten Russia a few weeks before, and Italy in the World Cup. Yet we have a divine right to go to the likes of there and wallop them?? That point out there could be the difference between qualifying and not, especially if we win the home game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serb
The last gobshy lost his first 2 competitive games. We've now lost 2 competitive games in 3 years, and unbeaten away from home in that time. I'm happy enough with how we're doing.
Hyland's been at it since day one with Trap, he was a major cheerleader for Venables and was well ****ed off he didnt get it. Joke of a journalist and has an awful style to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
"and that was really having a laugh"
have the irish public , readers, intellectual abilities deteriorated thiis much? Who actually buys this stuff
Oh. My. God.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea