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[QUOTE=NeilMcD]Yeah, because I think Byrne is better than Barrett clearly what I mean is we should only ever cap LOI players. Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
And your argument about if Byrne was any good he'd of gone to England to 'provide for the family' IS ********, because players over here are on as much as they'd get in most average division one clubs, so there'd be no reason to leave unless a top division one club or a premiership club came in.
he is not in the squad cause it is in the middle of the season not becuase kerr thinks barret is better but you and sheridan are paranoid. kerr is always going on about the EL and attends many games and manged in it for 10 years so think that he is anti EL is madness.
At this stage you've lost me, and that's despite being in possession of two politics-based degrees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
And so you should. I'm quite clear and direct about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
So, having been erroneously peremptory, what exactly is your answer then? And - please - spare me the bombast. I'm a simple soul. ;)
I'm open-minded, Sheridan, and big enough to admit it if I see the points you make. Enlighten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
:) PP
Think he was referring to me, in fairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
FWIW, I don't think we should only cap LoI players. I personally feel that we should be obliged to select a minimum number of LoI players in each squad as part of a broader strategy to inject some credibility into the international laughing stock that is Irish football.
Ideally, we should be looking at a situation whereby (in ten years' time) 30% of the international squad will comprise home-based players, with a further 30%-40% having played senior club football in Ireland at some stage of their careers.
That's a cop out from Kerr. Believe me, it would benefit Shels more to see Byrne get in an Ireland squad and promote their image than it would to have him available for a few weeks in the middle of a season. Byrne would much rather play for Ireland too.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
If that's enlightenment, then I'd cautiously welcome it. It would have to be backed up with hard cash to work, of course. The global game is a marketplace just like any other, and players would need appropriate incentivisation to remain in/come to Ireland. And yes, the latter option does include players qualified to represent the country who may have been born elsewhere. "Some have come from a land beyond the sea", as our national anthem has it. But maybe that's a little too 19th century-unsophisticated. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
:) PP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
that is the equivalent of teh cultural revolution in China, The fact is as a manager you pick teh best players regardless of where they place. Why should a player that is better than a LOI player be ruled out duie to the 30 per cent rule. Its a form of footballing communism, rather than rewarding the best you bring them back to the average. It punishes quality and those that want to better themselves. We are in a Europe of many nations where freedom of trade and workers is the norm, football is no different and if these were any sort of workers and they were been punished for workign in Germany or France there would be uproar. THere is not enough people in this country who want to watch league of Ireland football live to sustain such an idea.I do think that players should stay longer in Ireland and maybe till they are 21 or 20 and if they are good enough then they can be snapped up, But imposing laws and rules did not work in China, it does not work in the PSNI and it would not work in the LOI and it woudl be a disaster for the Irish international team. What you dont realise is there is people out there that have no interested in the LOI but are huge Irish football fans as they may be from an area that has no LOI team.
I'm referring to nationalism, and "blood-based" nationalism in particular. If I felt that the Irish football team existed to represent Mary Harney, Boyzone, baconcabbageandpotatoes and the GAA, I wouldn't have supported it in the first place. And surely not even the most deluded nationalist thinks that the footballing exploits of eleven men represent their nation's superiority to all others. The national team should reflect the footballing culture and life of the nation in question. Pulling in ringers from over there ----> reflects pretty much the kind of footballing culture we have, but not the kind we should aspire to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy
I've drawn up a skeletal blueprint for the future of Irish football, but I'm sure it would just attract scorn around these parts.Quote:
So, having been erroneously peremptory, what exactly is your answer then? And - please - spare me the bombast. I'm a simple soul. ;)
Besides, the path to enlightment is one that must be faced alone. ;)
Whoah! That's quite a paradigm shift you made there... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
In terms of the context you use, I believe that Kilbane et al are NOT ringers. They represent their country. It might not be the one they were born in, but nonetheless it is still their country. As it is yours and mine. Señor Lopez will expand further when he gets around to this thread, I'm sure.
Clinton Morrison? Now that's the type of player we can do without if I'm being honest, although as long as he plays in the green, he'll get my support. We're no-one's last resort.
Ahhh, the prophet is always unwelcome among his own... ;) And anyway, scorn is the resort of the fearful. If it's a good idea (and I'll presume that you believe it to be so) then why not table it here? You never know; people may actually like it. And if they don't you're well able to defend yourself, after all... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
:D PP
EL players are not international standard, therefore they should not be in international squads. Byrne is not top international standard. Neither is Crowe. Neither is John O'Flynn. The standard of the EL is nowhere near Division 1 standard in England either - its about lower to, at a push and being generous, top of Div 2 standard. A few years ago it was no better than the English 3rd Division, so it has improved, but has a long way to go yet.
I don't understand peoples ire here regarding EL players not making squads. They're not good enough, except as cover or in an emergency, so get over it!
Another few things. Alan Quinn was released because Wednesday could not afford him any longer as he was due a pay rise. Expect him to join Sunderland, or a 1st Div club. Barret has played ok this season, is playing at a good standard, and already has a goal at senior level - More than our two EL strikers, with roughly the same amount of time on the pitch.
Kerr has as much right to look at these young players as he has calling up EL players. After all, they are playing at a higher standard than the EL, so I don't see what the problem is. I don't agree that they should be in the squad, or that they are of international standard, but aren't these the type of games where you are supposed to look at these type of players? Kerr has already looked at Byrne and Crowe, and he obviously hasn't been impressed enough by them, either in games, or in training.
Have to agree with the previous post.
EL players are just not good enough, all EL teams usually
get knocked out in the first round of European competitions.
Well that's plain wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Tell me, if EL players aren't international standard, why did O'Flynn consistently outshine Barrett in the Ireland U21s? Why is it when our youth teams play generally the better players play over here, yet they never ever get considered for the full squad.
The EL is roughly at the level of the SPL, bar the obvious two teams. Bohs beating Aberdeen over two legs and Shels loseing only by a goal to Killie, despite at the time only being part time, in the last two meetings between non old firm SPL sides and EL sides in european competition show this. As such, the very best players in the EL are good enough to be given a chance at international level, espically ahead of someone with around four senior goals in about four years of playing senior football in the english first division.
if that was the case then the spl sides would have showed their 'superiority' over at least one of the four matches. They didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Some EL might survive in the lower reaches of Div, but Div 3 would be more like it. No way any EL team would survive in Div 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I would say that playing four matches and no 'superority' being showed by the SPL sides in any of them is pretty 'REGULAR'. There's nothing to suggest they couldn't keep on doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
Well f*ck me. I feel like I've just arrived at a party and the drinks have all been consumed and everybody's either kicked f*ck out of each other or f*cked each other.
My two cents, for what it's worth: Sheridan, I've a lot of sympathy with what you (and SlashEd) say, and I can say it because despite being, ahem, a 'product of the (English) footballing system, END OF. That's where [I] was educated, that's where [I] learned [my] football, that's who should reap the rewards,' I've yet to find a team that is suitable for my services :( , although I was once told that Luton is a good place to go. I'm desperate for the EL game to rise to the heights of the Norwegian and Danish leagues (both countries with similar populations to Ireland). Unfortunately the footballing culture in Ireland - and what Neil says the status of the (local) game - is that Britain is the be all and end all for any decent player. Bohemians and Shelbourne - great clubs with great histories - are sidelined for whom? Wycombe Wanderers FFS. Hopefully things will change but with cheap flights to Manchester and the John Lennon airport and a product that every media outfit promotes with a vengeance this is going to be hard. It's chicken and egg time to break the cycle although bringing in a couple of local players for the upcoming friendlies may have sent the message to some people: EL game down the road next week; Irish internationals are playing; Let's go!
As for your aversion to 'blood nationalism' well that's tough. If you lived my life, being verbally abused about my 'blood' nationality by people in authority you'd think should know better, such as teachers, then you'd understand that your insinuation that I and my brothers and sisters should salute the as*e of the German lady, is nothing but utter tosh. Get over it! Ireland is about to join the real world concerning citizenship (something that has been in Britain for over two decades) and citizenship's priority is always based on blood first and soil after.
Good shout Lopez. Slash/ED, I know where you're comin from, and I respect that, but you're blinded by your passion for the EL. You're obviously a genuine hardcore supporter, but there's no way you can justify saying that EL players are above what Kerr has picked for his squad. Your heart is in the right place, but your head aint listening. Fair play for making your case bud, but I don't think Kerr could have picked any other squad to be honest!
Well, 4onthefloor, I'm not saying Byrne and co should be in the squad ahead of the success stories in England, people who have made it over there, the one person I have a problem with is Barrett. He's in and out of a mid table first division side and in about three years in the first division has scored, I think, 3 goals. I'm open to correction there. I'm not saying Byrne should be a first choice, or thrown in against France or something, but he's good enough to be a fringe player ahead of people who simply aren't cutting it in the lower parts of the English league.
Anyway, even aside from the Eircom League, there's plenty of people I'd of picked playing in England ahead of the people he has picked, as I said earlier.
But isn't Barret mostly a midfielder now, rather than a striker?
Barrett is not international class either. I watched last night Div1 playoff match and can honestly say most of the players on display would struggle in the premiership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Yes, but he was called up as a striker unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tothefloor
Agree entirely when it comes to calling up the very average Barrett. Has done nothing to warrant a call up this season.
Although I have always argued against EL players in the national side was dissapointed not too see any in the squad. In such a huge squad and 3 games in a short period of time it is a perfect opportunity to put the arguement to bed and let some EL players prove their worth. I don't think anyone on this forum is against the EL improving but to put players who are not up to International standard in the squad just because they play in Ireland would be detrimental to the national team. Our domestic league simply is good enough yet. Seeing as improving the league is to the end of improving the national team this is hard to justify. Brian Kerr knows more of the EL than anyone. Football fans generally aren't interested in long term goals in less they have to be. As Lopez said it's the old chicken and the egg thing. We are a very small nation with soccer the 3rd choice sport(this being especially true outside the greater Dublin area and Cork). Denmark and Norway don't suffer this problem, nor do they have a huge European domestic league like England's scouting their schoolboy talent. Even then all their league's real stars go to England, Germany, etc as soon as they're spotted. Would love to see a truly powerful EL but perhaps we have unrealistic aims. 3rd choice sport in a country of 4 million vs first choice sport in a country of 60 Million.
Kennedy (Wolverhampton Wanderers), S Reid (Blackburn Rovers), Barrett (Coventry City), Connolly (West Ham United)
None of the above are goos enough even for enlarged squad.
Kennedy, Reid & Connolly have proven thier uselessness many times over.
Bit hard on Reid. Had a few poor Irish perfomances in an injury hit season with Blackburn. Only 22 and looked like a great prospect before being muck against Russia and Turkey. A couple of poor games does not contitute proving your uselessness many times over. I still believe he will come good.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
yeah and as for him only scoring 4 senior goals in 4 yrs - bullQuote:
Originally Posted by 4tothefloor
2003-04 coventry 2 league + 1 cup = 3
2002-2003 QPR 7 league = 7
brighton and hove alb. league = 1
2001-02 colchester league = 4
qpr league =2
so thats 17 goals then
Sorry, that was me, I forgot his loan spells to second divison clubs. It's still an embarassingly bad record.