Bla Bla BlaQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Neither has St.Ledger !
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Bla Bla BlaQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Neither has St.Ledger !
keep banging that Trappatoni drum.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
"better than anybody else"? Crazy talk.
I agree that Green isnt good enough but Im happy with the way the group has started so Im not gonna start bitching about the squad at this stage
Anything less than beating Armenia and Andorra would have been hugely embarrassing. However, the Slovakia & Russia games are going to tell an awful alot about where we are right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Yeah but how many penalties have Ireland given away in the last 2.5 years? For all of KK's obvious limitations, he's a very disciplined player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo69
The difference is the players in the squad could step in for frontline players and essentially do the same job. McCarthy, Wilson and Coleman haven't been in squads before so they don't have the experience of Trap's rigid system.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
Surely Green was a change made for a friendly?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Andorra yes, but winning away in Armenia was a very good result considering some of their results at home in recent yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
friendlies that were part of the career defining training camps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
We even managed to concede against Andorra. Not many teams can brag about that one. IMO not beating Armenia would have been a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
yeah it was sloppy to give a goal away against Andorra and we should have scored more but its not just under Trap that we havent hammered weak teams. We always seem to drop to the level of the opposition for years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Anyway, we can argue about the merits of the squad all we want but if we get 4 or 6 points from these 2 games then it will have been justified.
Of the current frontline players, Lawrence, Green, Andrews and St. Ledger were all brought in mid-campaign for friendlies. He's not very adventurous in his choice of player but I see no reason why he wouldn't bring in Wilson to compete with similar-minded players like Andrews and Whelan.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Coleman's only played 3 games in the Premiership, doesn't make him a regularQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Whats your point???Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
He is a regular this season !
According to this - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...264348498.html - Brady finished with the setup after the Brazil game in March. Since then Paul Green, Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Keith Treacy and Cillian Sheridan have all made their debuts, while Shane Duffy and Brian Murphy were called into the training squad before Algeria and ParaguayQuote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
if anything this season, his record is as a regularly introduced substitute. Is he going to start either game against Russia or Slovakia ahead of Stephen Kelly (who is a regular starter at fulham) or John O'Shea (who is Trapattoni's regular starter at right full). Plain and simple, no he isn't. So there's not much point in calling him up at the moment, should either or those players get injured between then and now then he's still behind Foley in terms of Premiership experience, and call ups to the Ireland squad under Trappatoni.Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
I said last week these are not the games to call him up to play in, and I still believe it.
3 games in 5 makes him a regular. Obviously not an ever present but certainly regular and certainly more regular than others in the squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I hope... Ye never can tell with Trapp.Quote:
Originally Posted by JGKyne
see my response in post 54Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
oh okay so a "regularly introduced substitute" is not the same as a "regular player" then. Bizarre.
He is the manager. I support the team. Trap defines how the team plays. At this stage you can either accept that he defines the team or howl at the moon. If you accept that he defines the team, then his selections make perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Who else is there, to play the holding role that Trap would want in the absence of Andrews?Quote:
"better than anybody else"? Crazy talk.
Possibly McCarthy? came on against Brazil but he was not there in the Summer and he won't be used against Russia.
We're obviously arguing two different points. I think its too soon for Coleman too. Foley should be there so should Ward Wilson and McCarthy. Is there any justification for Greg Cunningham being there ahead of Ward that doesnt involve a training camp?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Quite possiblyQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Foley is in the squad, I missed him the first time I read the list of players, sorry if I misled you. That still makes three recognised right full backs (O'Shea, Kelly, Foley) so Coleman is, at best, fourth choice right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Probably notQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I support the team too, no matter who the players are. I want my manager to utilise the players that should be in the squad by form and/or logic. If he doesnt do that i reserve the right to howl at the moon until i am proven right.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
McCarthy, O'Shea and even Kilbane has done a similar job for Ireland. I believe Wilson could. Im not saying that the players in question throughout this thread should start in the next set of qualifiers but they should be in the squad and being versed or trained on the mechanics of the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
On an earlier point you made, Green himself has said that he had to be trained in his role with the Irish team as it is different from the role he has with Derby County. So he is not custom made for the team. The fact that he has a place in the team is down to pure luck that he wasnt injured at the end of the season (unlike other players who could also have been trained) ahead of any real ability, form, rationale or logic. That, to me, is wrong. Especially considering he is not very good at passing, a vital part of his "role".
There is no excuse for Trap not having tried players like Marc Wilson, Stephen Ward, James McCarthy, Anthony Stokes, Jon Walters, Seamus Coleman etc. at this stage.... Paul Green, Paul McShane, Kevin Kilbane (had his day), Cilian Sheridan etc...ya, whatever.
Wilson's an odd one alright, and along with McCarthy and Ward one of the players I'd like to have seen called up. He plays in a position we're short in, central midfield, has an eye for a pass, and can tackle.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Played in the B game VS Forest. Actually thought he did quite well, although Hoolahan in front of him made him look worse than he actually was (if that makes sense)Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Played VS Brazil in March, and was in the U21s in August. Made Keogh's call up to the senior side all the more bizarre IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Was in the training squad in May, and scored in one of the arranged games. Trapattoni has stated that he plays for himself, instead of the team, which is something that has been noticed by many who have seen him play at underage levelsQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Lawrence and McGeady were playing in the same position Keane regularly played him Ipswich, and at a higher level, no real need to call him upQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
see earlier comments. Basically, there are at least 3 more established players in his position in the Premier LeagueQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
I was thinking of Walters as a forward (where he has being playing recently for Stoke) not as a winger. He is much better than Sheridan for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I dont think we should complain about Walters not being called up before. He was in a struggling championship side all last season. Now he's cementing a regular spot in a decent PL side and i think we'll see him against Norway, which is fair enough.
The only realy conundrums are Ward, Wilson and McCarthy. Something happened with McCarthy, I'm convinced of that. But at least we know he's there for the future. Wilson is a solid replacement for Andrews and an all around better player.
Let's all face it, we knew that's the exact squad he would call up and i'm not even remotely surprised. But we all should take a close look at whoever partners Whelan in those matches.
The squad for the Norway match is the big one to complain about if he calls up noone new, or some unheard of english lad.
I hope you're right but the longer he' being exiled by the manager the more likely he is to leave the set up altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
fair enough, but even then he's behind Sheridan and Keogh in Trapattoni's thoughts. He'd give more options than Sheridan or Keogh since he can play out wide as well, but I haven't seen enough of him to say whether or not he's a better option up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Personally, I think Sheridan should get some reward for at least trying something different and moving to Bulgaria to play football instead of going on loan to somewhere like Leicester or rotting on the bench at Celtic
On the Sheridan note, i honestly think there's a decent player in him and it'll come out this season with CSKA. He needs a solid year of starts and he's getting that now in a very physical league which suits us.
I do 100% hope that McGeady starts against Russia. Being the only one with recent experience on plastic pitches!!
McCarthy should make the Norway squad. If we lose him back to Scotland, it'll be a disaster for Trap and i'm sure he's aware of it.
I didn't say you couldn't howl at the moon :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Me, I don't care enough about being right.
I am specifically talking about a partner for Whelan, in the absence of Andrews, for the next 2 qualifiers.Quote:
McCarthy, O'Shea and even Kilbane has done a similar job for Ireland. I believe Wilson could. Im not saying that the players in question throughout this thread should start in the next set of qualifiers but they should be in the squad and being versed or trained on the mechanics of the team.
Maybe Wilson will get a call up for the Norway game.
Green did not say he had to be trained for the Irish midfield role, he said Trap has asked to play deeper than he does at Derby.Quote:
On an earlier point you made, Green himself has said that he had to be trained in his role with the Irish team as it is different from the role he has with Derby County. So he is not custom made for the team.
To attribute Green's place in the team as factually down to pure luck, is neither rational nor logical :)Quote:
The fact that he has a place in the team is down to pure luck that he wasnt injured at the end of the season (unlike other players who could also have been trained) ahead of any real ability, form, rationale or logic. That, to me, is wrong. Especially considering he is not very good at passing, a vital part of his "role"
I have to wonder one thing though - surely the FAI should push Trap to bring McCarthy along and introduce him in the 91st minute to bind him to us? Or is that just nasty?
It's the same problem I had with him last campaign. His windows of oppertunity are too limited for our playing resources and is gonna result in depriving us of options. Andy Keogh starting against Italy with Liam Lawrence subsequently nailing the position once eventually given the oppertunity is an example.
Given the obvious defficieny at left full and centre midfield there should be efforts to close them out at every oppertunity.
There has to be a happy medium between selection consistency and form. It's gonna cost us in some form, without a doubt for me.
I don't see how winning or losing these games rests on Trap not calling up Wilson, Ward, McCarthy et al. I'd like to see them there, but it's his method and it's done OK so far. Reserve judgement for the game.
I didn't expect Coleman to be called up because he isn't starting for Everton but Wilson and Walters should have been named in the 26.
Andrews must have huge question marks over his fitness and Wilson would be an ideal replacement. Please let Duffer be fit.
I don't agree SwansV... Trapp can't loose because those of us that disagree with his selection processes can't prove what would have happened otherwise. Lawrence was eventually acknowledged as our best right midfield option after begrudgers like some of us were calling for his inclusion long before it came. Would we have beaten Italy had he started in place of Keogh (baring in mind the goal came from that side)?? It's not worth even discussing. It's waffle..
My gripe lies with the fact I don't know what, if anything, Trapp has seen of Ward, Wilson and McCarthy this season to decide they don't offer what Cunningham or Green brings to the sqaud. Had they been included in the squad yet not saw a minute of game time I wouldn't have a word to say because Trapp would be exhausting avenues and choosing what he feels is the best availible. However I feel like he's making decisions based on old data, if you know what I mean.
Probably like most us Doc, you were disappointed with Lawrence against Nigeria, realised he would not be first choice in the next qualifier, but thought (like most of us) that he was worth keeping in the squad because he had to be better than that.
Am I wrong?
I thought he was better than Andy Keogh!!!!
(Had to check. The Nigeria friendly was after the Italy game..)
Why are they playing games on Friday and not Saturday? :mad: I hope they don't do that for Cup Q.
Doc, it's your criticism that's lazy and conservative :)
I certainly do not remember any big dismay here about playing Keogh against Italy except that he was not at his best out wide and Lawrence was just back to the Stoke team/squad from a long lay off. However In May? - Lawrence was called in to the Nigeria game. He was low key but he was kept on and used in another friendly in August? where he impressed.
There is a method with selecting players for the squad. When a player does enough to be invited for an audition he has to turn up, rain, hail or shine. And he is not discarded after a poor display.
6 points from the first 2 games can't ask for any more than that. I really do hope that we do well in the next 2 games. We shud be able to take the Russians at home, they are in awful form at the moment under Advocat. Slovakia away will be tricky but they are also no great shakes and we should be looking to come away with at least a point from Bratislava. However, I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with Trappatoni's tenure. The inital fervour of his appointment was washed away when I realised he was treating the job as a hobby to keep him occupied in his villa in Italy as he eased himself into retirement. He has displayed little knowledge of the Irish players, his squads selections have been lazy and ultra conservative. It's a time bomb waiting to go off. Bluffing his way through the job. But in my hearts of hearts I hope he keeps proving me wrong and we take at least 4 points from these 2 games