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He isn't actually even a candidate yet, but it could hit him with the conservative FF councillors he needs. Although with two "Independent" FFers in Gallagher and Davis also looking he'd be hard pushed to now anyway (perfectly legitimate for FG and Labour to not support competition for their candidates imo).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
I don't see this as anything but mud slinging. Probably damage done at this stage, unfortunately.
It's a pity, I've spent the last week in the Netherlands and Belgium, and the general opinion of people there of us is that while individually they love us, societally, we're a conservative, homophobic, catholic-dominated social and cultural backwater. Perhaps electing an openly gay President would go some way towards dispelling that not-wholly-undeserved impression
Their opinion probably is true, however, I still don't think the chance to show we aren't complete bigots is enough a reason to vote Norris. imho obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Obviously! But one of the biggest functions of the President is to project a good image for Ireland at home and abroad, and proving we're not complete bigots would be a nice addition to our image!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I can't really say I've been following the "presidential race" with any strict adherence, being over here in England, but Norris would be Europe's first openly gay president, if I'm not mistaken, not including Icelandic prime minister, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir, who I believe to be the world's first openly gay prime minister or head of government.
Has Norris fallen behind from a leading position in the opinion polls then or does it remain to be seen? It would be a shame really if he was to lose out over this. The "revelation" stinks of homophobic sabotage and I've always had the impression of Norris as a resoundingly charming and progressively-minded chap; maybe too forward-thinking for his own good. Could this stunt have the unintended effect of galvanising sympathy and support around him?
Just not convinced Norris would be able to pull off the former, to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
I don't think there have been any polls yet, bar one of those stupid liveline text yokes. I personally think that anyone who can't see through that getting dragged up now, wouldn't have voted for him anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
As I said earlier, I really can't see him getting a nomination. Two FFers in Gallagher and Davis disguised as independents, and FG and Labour running candidates so legitimately not interested in supporting other nominations at council level, where's he going to get the councils from?
Norris has an advantage over Gallagher and Davis in that he can try for nominations from 20 members of the Oireachtas. There are enough independents between both houses to achieve this, and it might suit the technical grouping in the Dail to endorse a candidate who has a realistic chance of beating whoever FG can force into running and whoever wins the Labour nod. I suspect Gallagher is being used to keep local FF cumainn busy, and make mischief for FG and Labour. FF need somebody to run to show the troops that it's still in business, but not at the risk of damaging one of the party statesmen/women. Davis, I'm not sure about; I don't know where her support is going to come from.
The nearest thing to a poll I've seen was thejournal.ie effort on the 27th of May, which had Norris with over 50% of the support from a poll of over 3000. Obviously being an internet based poll it was probably open to manipulation.
The recent revelations are a complete character assasination attempt and the sad thing is it will probably be enough to prevent him even getting a nomination. I'm not 100% that he'd get my vote but I'd certainly be considering him and I'd like to at least see his name on the ballot.
Be interesting to run a poll on Foot.ie, given the subject matter and associated stereotypes. Is the candidate list complete yet?
Candidate list isn't complete. Sure there's at least 3 looking for just the labour nomination. FG hasn't decided yet (although McGuinness is the only declared left afaik). There's several rumoured, or having expressed an interest too.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I'm not sure whether a poll would give much indication on the stereotype issue either. Just speaking personally, his sexuality isn't even an issue as why Norris wouldn't get my vote.
I really think if this was a runner, he wouldn't be trailing around the councils. A lot of "independents" in both houses, aren't really independent anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
The football world being the last bastion of homophobia and all that? It doesn't say a great deal for the global game when Anton Hysén is the only openly-gay professional footballer I'm aware of worldwide. I'd imagine the great thinkers of Foot.ie are a bit more socially enlightened and progressive than your average football fan, mind. I'd have no qualms with backing Norris, although I could probably do with reading up a bit on his campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
The premise that not being a Norris fan is equal to homophobia is nonsense. If I won't vote for Mary Davis, does it make me anti people with intellectual disabilities?
Who equated the two?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Not what I was suggesting at all, if that's your implication. Obviously, many factors come into making a decision and there's no obligation to vote for Norris just in order to prove one isn't homophobic. I was simply making a comment, pretty much irrelevant to Norris' campaign for the Irish presidency, on the football world in general given dahamsta's mention of the social stereotype that plagues the game; that being the perception of the sport as one of the last bastions of homophobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
To clarify, if I'm not mistaken, Norris would be a relatively popular candidate for the presidency. Well, before the attempted smear anyway. If a poll was instigated on this site and he was found to be disproportionately unpopular amongst a group of Irish football supporters, then one might have to ask further questions as to the reasoning behind this.
Is it not implicit with the talk of stereotypes? Maybe I'm the only one taking it that way, so fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
There's too many variables though to make any assumptions, even if it was a proper poll of football supporters, rather than internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
The current issue of Phoenix (http://www.thephoenix.ie/phoenix/welcome.do - subscription needed) reckons Pat Cox might get the FG nod, but may have to join the party first. With Bruton and Kelly out, only McGuinness is left, and she isn’t seen as a likely winner.
I’d back Norris against Cox, even with the FG machine behind him.*
@DI – do you not think that unpopularity among Irish football fans is a given anyway?
If he supports an English or Scottish team, he’ll be seen as a barstooler.
Unless he can produce ticket stubs in l.s.d. for Irish internationals in Dalyer, he’s one of the Olé Olé brigade. If he can produce those stubs, he's a throwback to the black and white era and barstoolers will ridicule him.
If he supports a LoI club, 20 sets of supporters will think it’s the wrong one, but respect him for having one. Barstoolers will ridicule him.
If he supports a junior club, hardly anybody will know, but barstoolers will ridicule him.
And if he supports any of these, he’ll have to start following the Dubs to get the GAA vote.:p
Edit
* Yes, reading it back, I realise that this has tremendous innuendo potential, but y'know what I mean.
What John83 said. Not voting for Norris doesn't make someone a homophobe, but homophobes are unlikely to vote for him. They're completely different statements.
And yes, there's a lot of homophobia in football - the chants are pathetic in this day and age - which is why I think it'd be interesting. Maybe when the list is complete.
But if we're accepting the fact that not voting for Norris doesn't make someone a homophobe, I don't see what the latter would prove about homophobia in football? It's that I'm just not getting (possibly due to tiredness :) )Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I don't think it'd prove anything, I'm just interested. Foot.ie is hardly academia!
I wonder what kind of a difference in results you'd get between here and the League forum, or the league forum here and the league forum on Boards. Maybe Foot.ie should be academia... :)
That's true, which is why I'd penetrate the reasoning further by asking questions rather than jumping to assumptive conclusions. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Fairly damning column by Waters in the Times today - it could be the denial rather than the content that does for his campaign.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...298323687.html
Journalists will always stick up for each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
No doubt, and I'm certainly no fan of Waters. However, Norris would want to be pretty sure that a tape still doesn't exist, if he's going to carry on denying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuyahoga
I read that this morning, and the first thing that struck me was that Waters was doing his best to take himself out of the firing line. Acting with editorial rigour - despite being only a consultant editor to a young, inexperienced editor - trusting the journalist who he knew by reputation only, concern for a political figure (this is the guy who published a foul-mouthed Haughey interview in Hotpress!), not wanting to publicise a dynamite story... Magill would have killed for a big story like that to boost circulation!!
I notice that he covers himself by saying that he only saw extracts from the interview - not the full transcript, and never heard the recording. Maybe I'm cynical where Waters is concerned, but I find that if I disagree with what he writes then usually all is right in my world!
So much speculation. But it's four days since Joe Duffy, and HLB still hasn't released any tapes. I'm surmising that she's turning the attic upside down looking for them, or they no longer exist, or somebody's sitting on them waiting for a more opportune moment. Time will tell.
A real horror story! I've often delivered parcels to John Waters house in Castleknock, he has stuck me as a pure gentleman, if he has abnormal information on Norris, he is doing right to inform the public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Personally I think the "I haven't got something to play it on" is pretty damning in and of itself, and shows the level of intelligence and/or snakiness involved. Someone out there has a player, hand the damn thing over and prove it or stfu, imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Half remembered interviews from 10 years ago and a mislaid tape. If every candidate expressed their opinions honestly and openly none of them would get a vote. The text of the interview reads risqué at best, there is nothing to suggest David Norris endorses paedophilia.
The timing of this is suspect to say the least. He ran for the senate 3 times since that interview and the restaurant critic decides to bring it up now.
If he gets on the ballot he will still get a high % of the vote, maybe not over 51% but he wont be far off. Pat Cox is too close to the EU & the Lisbon Treaty still and with quite a bit of anti-EU feeling about I think he may struggle although it looks as though FG want him to run.
FF have no credible candidate as far as I can see. Its a pity Fergus Finlay probably wont get on the ballot. I like him since he went from Labour press secretary to charity work, I think he would make a very good President but would possibly be too politicised for the Governments liking.
Has anybody here actually read the Magill article? I'm surprised that if it's as damning as HLB claims that it hasn't been reprinted somewhere since Tuesday.
She says she has the tape, but not a machine to play it on. Presumably no-one else in the entire world has one either.Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
The entire piece was read by Pat Kenny the other morning I thought (unless I misheard it). It is quite blunt in parts, a little creepy though the ending is extremely positive for David Norris. I think the bit that really is the grist to the mill is him saying he'd have appreciated or liked an ancient Greek scenario in his life where an older gay man would introduce him to the ways of the world, gay style. Now he frankly stated he'd have liked this, to Pat Kenny, though Greek style would have been slightly more on the paedophilic side than what would be deemed acceptable.
I've always found David Norris personable, intelligent and progressive. It'll only really be pushed that he fought for gay rights, Joyce and Georgian Dublin, though he has done so much more and still does. I will vote for him, though I'm beginning to wonder if get progressively more shrill and obnoxious as Joan Burton did before the election.
In the case of the 'Magill' interview with Helen Lucy Burke, it would have to be wondered why he didn't begin, or even threaten, legal action at the time. Her tape of the interview is now missing but would obviously still have been in existence then.
Norris was one of the very few people to defend poet Cathal O Searcaigh over the nature of his relationships with teenagers in Nepal.
I'm pretty sure he will not be the next president of Ireland.
Not yet, but unless some complete unknown declares, everyone has pretty much ruled themselves in or out. Most likely Máiread McGuinness for FG, now that Kelly and Bruton have withdrawn, FF seem to be backing away from running anyone, could possibly get behind Gallagher. Can't see the Norris controversy lasting until October, in any case the four Dublin councils will see him on the ballot paper - if it does affect him, Michael D will probably benefit most.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Sam Smyth giving the HLB article some balanced coverage on TodayFM right now. Dunphy's show on NewsTalk is just one step short of looking for a rope and a convenient lamp post. I swear, if John Waters voice keeps going up and up with blustery anger only dogs will be able hear him.... Robert Fisk doing his best to be impartial.
Waters is on Dunphy defending his position. He said that he asked HLB to run the interview by Norris several times as he thought it would kill Norris' career.
Hmmmmm... that doesn't sit right...
It is clear that the Norris campaign had the momentum of an express train, before it has been derailed so spectacularly.
Mr Norris himself believes that the re-emergence of the Magill article was carefully orchestrated and designed to cause him maximum damage.
However, the truth is that the article has been bandied around the information super highway for months. Last October, a site wholly dedicated to opposing Mr Norris was set up.
Mr Norris describes Pope John Paul II as "an instrument of evil".
I can see where John Waters is coming from he is a deeply religious man.
You have a link for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt Locker
HTHQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
http://www.davidnorris4president.com/
Martin McAleese might get FG nomination here
This is the second time you've stated this. I watched her claim on RTE last week that she had a copy of the tape but not a player for it. Do you have evidence for your claim to the contrary?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt Locker
That site is run by the Burkes btw, nutjobs plain and true. Equating that with "bandying around the web" is like saying there's a wellspring of support for killing jews, because you read it on st0rmfr0nt.
Erm... a lot of terrible stuff happened on JP II's watch which the church facilitated.. I think Mr Norris has a pretty reasonable view here. On the other hand the church is rushing through his transition to sainthood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt Locker
So not so surprising that RC hardliners would take every opportunity to attack somebody like Norris.