Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
The history is currently in the hands of the liquidator and i think he is the person who the history can be bought off,just like the intellectual property of Cork City Fotbball club was last week .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
The history is currently in the hands of the liquidator and i think he is the person who the history can be bought off,just like the intellectual property of Cork City Fotbball club was last week .
So any club could just buy Cork City's history off the liquidator? Seems a bit strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheao
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheao
Lads, the history is awarded to a club. There is no 'buying the history' involved. The club who owns the intellectual property rights could be deemed best placed to have the history awarded to it. There would probably be some other criteria as well. As far as i know thats how it works anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
did CCFC (1984-2009) get cork hibs and cork celtics history, not stirring, just curious how it works
And it completely blows over your headQuote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Necroclubs like Cork, Derry, Limerick can continue to spend money they don't have, win trophies, go bust, form a new franchise, buy intellectual properties and go off on the cycle again and again and again while clubs who don't have this luxury by owning real assets and wanting to protect their history and integrity have to live within their means and pay off their debts and all this distorts competition in the league by putting clubs at a competitive disadvantage: debt free Derry are spending more than any other first division club and are already dominating the division. This is disasterous for actual football clubs as the lax attitude from the FAI towards necroclubs is distorting competition in the league and hampering clubs in their efforts to progress on and off the pitch.
So many clowns here moan about the state of the Irish football and the non-existent sustainability over the past number of years but when necroclubs like Cork City receive the facility to continue the unsustainable madness and to rape their creditors as often as they wish here its all well done, pat on the back stuff. ****ing hypocrites.
If clubs die, they should stay dead.
If fans of deceased clubs want to form their own club that's fine.
But there needs to a regulation in the participation agreement that forbids any new applicant to the league from registering the same name, claiming history and other intellectual properties as former league members.
:roll: In Cork, does anyone understand the concept of death?Quote:
Originally Posted by paudie
ACF Fiorentina is a different club to the former club that died in 2002. ACF's history started in 2002.
Totally agree that it should not be allowed- but until there are rules against it (and as I've said before, if licensing isn't there to prevent clubs from walking away from their debts and then reappearing as if little or nothing happened- what the hell IS it for?) then you can't blame clubs for doing it.
No, because they were different entities and not a continuation of the club. CCFC were founded since 1984 and have existed since then up until this day.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.untitled
so CCFC (the one founded in 1984) went in to examinership twice, went bust and is still alive?
As Mr.A says, If there are no rules against it, I cant blame cork for doing it but just when I was beginning to think the FAI had things under control, this comes up. No where else would this be allowed.
I dunno, i think its quite common place as far as i know. Agreed that its not ideal and does nothing to stop the cycle of 'boom bust' clubs but the fact still remains, City, by the mechanisms that are available to us have been allowed to continue the club on.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.untitled
Happens literally every three or four days in Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.untitled
You try and tell a Neapolitan that Napoli never actually won the Scudetto see how far you get.
I wonder would it be prudent to retain the FORAS setup and name and keep it in reserve in case the club does end up in the mire? History has a strange habit of repeating itself down that neck of the woods and it would be nice to know that there would be a fall back option if ever disaster struck again.
Yes, thats the way liquidation works. Why would someone want to pay someone else's bills?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACF_FiorentinaQuote:
Originally Posted by total hoofball
Educate yourself. I'm not saying it makes it right, but this situation is not unique to the LoI surprisingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
I really don't understand this attitude. The fact that there does not appear to be FAI rules to prevent this, it does not make the actions of Cork Foras right. It's morally wrong, and Cork Foras should take responsibility / blame for their own actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.untitled
I can understand the emotional attachment to the Cork City name, but a shrug of the shoulders and pointing the "blame" at the FAI is convenient (and justified) but misses the point. Shame on you Foras - I thought all the rethoric last season was about decency and doing the right thing?
It's a few lines on a history section of a website. In the bigger picture, what does it really matter? The liquidation wasn't FORAS' fault. The only thing they've done wrong was to try and blackmail the FAI into giving them a Premier Division spot.
I agree with you that on the face of it whether Cork FORAS claim the history of Cork City and use the name/colours/crest etc does not really make much practicial difference.The creditors remain stung, the credibility of the league remains tarnished, sponsors remain cautious, and of course Dundalk remain in the Europa League.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
FORAS may be rubbing up the noses of local creditors but thats their own lookout.
The main problem is that it is another visable statement that the downsides or risks of the Boom or Bust model are fairly modest (for clubs without assets).
It also bugs me that there appears to be an amnesty for the morally bankruptcy of FORAS in taking this action
They've gotten relegated and don't look like coming up this year. That's a decent start, I think. Are they banned from playing in Europe for a few years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Local trust must surely be through the floor too, so you'd imagine there'll be less goodwill (= less sponsorship) and people will be looking for cash up front, both of which will hurt. (Granted, I said this after Arkaga Cork went belly up too).
I don't see what refusing to recognise the 1992/93 title win will do to improve things. Likewise, I don't see what else really can be done to punish Cork more (bar maybe a points deduction at the start of this season, or the obvious notion of starting back in the A League).
I don't think you've said anything to back up the idea that FORAS are rubbing the noses of their creditors, or that their actions are morally bankrupt.
CCFC was also liquidated in the 90's which seems to be consistently ignored because FAI rules were different at the time, I don't seethe difference now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.untitled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We are lucky in a way that many of the little creditor stung in liquidation are actually city fans and a lot of them FORAS members. Despite getting hurt by the old regime they are part of the new start.
In fact a large amount of our creditors from the last regime are back on board with us this year, Hummell, Sports gear direct, express etc etc, which says alot. They don't seem half as annoyed with the actions of Foras as some foot.ie fans are on their behalf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Can you clarify what exactly you think we've done wrong?
We're working with most of our creditors from last year, we're running a tight sustainable budget but somehow daring to use Cork City Football club instead of Cork City Foras Co-op is somehow a big crime?
We have always maintained we would be the same club, as happened in the 90's(obviously some will disagree). To the fans, there's a lot more to a club than the current FAI rules.
Is it awful that the creditors got screwed, some of them our members? Yes. Is it a disgrace that Coughlan got away with it for as long as he did? Yes. But we did everything we could to prevent that, unfortunately we couldn't. We're doing what we can now, to rebuild trust and rebuild our club from the bottom up.
Don't know if there's a difference between Italian and English law, but when Fiorentina went bust, called themselves Florentia Viola and eventually bought the name back, they were always seen as the continuation of the old club. By contrast, when Wimbledon became MK Dons, AFC tried to win back the honours list, which was fair enough given that only they were called Wimbledon, but there was a dispute and the titles ended up as the property of Merton Council, the local council around the Wimbledon area.
Derry might be, but Cork are technically a new club. I don't think they could be denied European football if they were to qualify for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Derry and Cork were both liquidated; don't see why there'd be any difference between the two. But maybe the ban is only for examinership instead of liquidation.
Apologies, I had forgotten Derry we liquidated.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I agree with you on this. I think that what has happened to Derry (debts wiped clean and probably automatic promotion back to the Premier - in short, one season out of the top flight) is not enough of a deterrent to clubs in the future. However, the people you should be angry with are the FAI who are are allowing it to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
You can't really blame (well, I can't really blame) Cork and Derry for trying to limit the damage to their club and maintain as much of a link with their history as possible - Limerick 37, who morphed 'back' into Limerick FC, have done basically the same thing.
Ridiculous argument, why does it bother people this much seriously. If CCFC/DCFC want to buy the name, trophies etc. let them fire ahead, whats more important is the history of the citys achievements in the league, not which club done it if there were many clubs.
My point is, of all the cork clubs hibs, united, athletic so what if they were all different organisations. What matters is the city of Cork and the history of the sport in the city and all of it put together should combine to represent the true success of football in Cork.
Feck it, let every cork club's trophies come together in the new CCFC.
I dont know about that. I think if they are different clubs then they should be separate to be fair. In this case it clearly is the same club and i think hand on heart everyone on here knows that. Half of the comments here saying it shouldn't be allowed happen serve to analyse the rules and safeguards in place to prevent serious abuse of it and i'd agree with that. The other half is just banter. But when all is said and done we all know its the same club and everyone else if in this situation would do the same and rightly so imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddickcule
The football support in Cork is very fractured and divided as a result of the various clubs coming to a premature end, those fans literally gave up going to games and a lot of them would be described as being bitter and begrudging towards City. It has cut off generations of potential fans for City and if this continuation of the club can allow us to carry the baton for the next generation and we focus on getting people to games then the future of the club will have the fan base to stay stable and sustain full time football in the city.
Ridiculous comment. Why not do the same in Dublin so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddickcule
Put up Drumcondra's, James' Gate's, Dolphin's titles, Transport's FAI Cup as well sure.
Share them out between the current clubs, or sell them to the highest bidder, doesn't matter, what's important is Dublin and the history of the sport in the city.
Mother of God.
I think the central point is how serious those running our league are about its credibility. Every time a club goes through what Cork or Derry did last year it does serious damage to the league and hurts every club in it. Any given instance may not do much, but it all adds up and makes the difficult task of keeping a senior club going that bit more difficult.
Therefore there should be every possible deterrent to reckless behaviour and walking away from debts etc. That includes not allowing clubs to officially take over the history of previous incarnations. It may be written off here, but it means a lot to supporters and will add an incentive to make sure that they stay engaged with their clubs and try to make sure they remain stable.
In Cork's case at least the supporters made a concerted effort to address their problem, but in other cases this simply didn't happen. And if these clubs are allowed to keep a place in the league, keep their history etc while walking away from their debts- why wouldn't they be financially reckless? The rewards outweigh the hazards in that case by a long chalk and that is simply wrong.
Agreed on that post, and something needs to be done to tighten up that whole area but i'm glad a distinction has been made between the two scenarios, a club looking to get stabilty and conduct themselves effectively and prudently and that compared to clubs -> management who are clearly reckless and do not have the clubs/leagues interests at heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
But any 'tightening up' of the rules would punish the regime responsible for going into administration, regardless of how good the plans are of the group looking to start a new regime / club.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
In your quote above, while FORAS may be the former category, Coughlan was certainly the latter, and any punishment would be meted on the basis of what he'd done, not what FORAS were planning to do, surely?
If you want to claim to be the same club then you must accept the consequences of what previous regimes did. You should not be able to cherry pick what you want to retain.
Like CCFC, Drogheda were badly mismanaged over the last few years leaving the club in examinership.Unlike CCFC, the people of the town rallied around and raised a small fortune to help the club exit examinership. The club is still alive but just. My fear is the precedent this sets (i know it happened in Limerick but Cork is a higher profile example). The idea that you can let your club fold, screw over your creditors and two years later you have the exact same club back. What incentive is there to exit examinership? I guess its a bit like 'what was all that crap about last year if its going to be the same club with new owners?'
Different situation as there always one club in Cork. In Dublin there will always be numerous clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by stann
Mother of God right back at ye.
Cork Celtic (1959-79) and Cork Hibernians (1957-76) competed directly against each other for many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddickcule
Should Cork City get the trophies won by both of these teams?
Not true; there's been cases where there were two Cork teams in the league at the same time. 1978-79 was the most recent time - Cork Celtic and Cork Alberts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riddickcule