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for god sake professional football here is completly viable here as long as the clubs dont spend money they cant afford whats the averag wage in ireland per week can anyone tell me? i have my doubts its over 400 euro so why cant footballers live off anywhere around and above (where clubs can afford it)?
The average industrial wage is just over €600. Professional footballers have to earn a premium because, for most of them, their football earnings are confined to 15 years or so. With the attendances that LoI matches get it's just not viable.
[MOD EDIT: Don't edit your post to apologise for caps, edit the caps out!]
The current difficulties don't underscore it though. The current difficulties underscore the fact that if you spend money you don't have, you'll get into trouble. That doesn't mean professional football isn't possible for some teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
To answer your question - you see the national team as superseding all other things when it comes to "Irish football."
Fair enough - in that case I'd say that the LOI isn't of strategic value, not would it be even if it met the criteria set out in the Genesis report.
But I think that the view that you're taking is pretty narrow.
As I've already said, the question you seem to be asking is "how important is the LOI to the Irish national team?", rather than to "Irish football."
There's more caps there than Steve Staunton has :)
OK let's do the maths but first we need some basics:
1) Put a figure on an average weekly wage for LoI players - let's use your original €400
2) Average professional squad ? Let's say 20 players
3) LoI clubs play 18 home matches
4) Average attendance per match? - Last figure I saw was 2,043
5) Average ticket price - lets say €12 (mix of adults, kids etc and erring on the high side)
That works out at a maximum of €424 per player per week. That doesn't leave any money for other costs involved in running the club.
your leaving out income from fund raising, sponsorship, match day income (shop) club merchindice, tv money and prize money...
You think clubs have no income other than gate receipts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I fully accept that some clubs can sustain it, if they are financially prudent, but for most it's not a runner.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
No. I'm also questioning the value of the League of Ireland clubs in helping the game at schoolboy level also. I think the LoI clubs need to embed themselves to a greater degree in their local communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The GAA is in a completely different situation. They haven't got one of the largest marketing machines for anything in the world blaring away 70 miles to the east, promoting an almost identical competitor product. If people want Gaelic games, they have the GAA, and nothing but the GAA. If people want football, it's hard to ignore the loud noises and shiny things bombarding us from our neighbours. Going amateur is only going to convince them that the LOI is an inferior product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I realise that but without sufficient revenue coming through the gate you are building on sand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
do most builings not contain an element of sand? :)anyway obviously not every club can be professional to suggest that is silly but to say every club should be amature is plain stupid it is definitley possible for teams like shams,bohs,fingal,pats,sligo,dundalk,drogheda,galw ay,limerick,derry,cork with the propper finantial control to be full time obviously not this year or next but it is definitley fesable wth the right people in charge and a moderate degree of sucess.. the rest of the clubs bar wexford,salthill and mervue can comfortably be part-time
There is no denying (and I know this will provoke a backlash) that it is an inferior product and we simply cannot compete with the English product. Trying to compete with it is the road to ruin. Spending money on wages that could be used to improve facilities for fans seems pointless. I think maybe we are getting to a more basic question. Why do people want a League of Ireland? What is it's purpose? If we can get a consensus on that then we might be able to decide upon how we structure, organise and manage it.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
because we all want to have our own league our own cub somthing we can be proud of. i support chelsea but they mean nothing to me in comparrison to longford.. i'm sure the rest of us feel the same way. we have a right to our own league regardless of who our neighbour is and nothing anybody says can change how iwhat i would consider 'real' Irish fans feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
Stupid is as stupid does :) but I don't think that we can have a league made up of a mix of amateur and professional clubs. That is hardly a level playing field. Ireland is too small to support a viable professional league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
It depends what you are after. In my mind, the fact that the league is ours more than makes up for any difference in talent. If the quality of a product was solely defined in footballing terms, everyone in the world would support Barcelona, and the only reason to have other teams would be to give them someone to play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
And what is the purpose of any football? I'd love the league of Ireland to be a well-supported league with strong ties to communities, flying the flag in Europe, and be feeding players into the national side. But in the most basic of terms, the league exists to give enjoyment to the people who choose to associate themselves with it. For me, going amateur with no plans to advance would be a step backwards in this regard.
But why does it have to be professional?Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
Any suggestions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I'm serious when say I'd wager that any, and I mean any good idea will have been tried by LOI clubs. Plenty of bad ideas tried too.
It doesn't. But if clubs can afford it, then they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I want a League of Ireland because I love watching live football, and I love supporting a team that represents me and the place I live in. You are right when you say it is utterly inferior to the EPL, but I honestly couldn't care less. And anybody who does, in my opinion, hasn't a clue about what supporting a team means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
If you go down that line, why have a national team? What's its purpose? Why make everything else subservient to it?
because clubs can sustain it if managed correctly and profesionalism enhances the product, its our baby and we want it to be the best that it can be?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
since when is anything in the world a level playing field?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I'm all for pluralism in soccer and I don't particularly like the seemingly inexorable push towards a European super league. An amateur LoI would still be ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Unfortunately I think the League is going backwards anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
negative so and so... if anyting the demise of cork and derry aswell asthe fact that clubs are becoming somewhat prudent(bar fingal) and rovers rennassance is a promising signQuote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I think that you are misreading my intention. I totally agree that quality shouldn't be the deciding factor. That's why I'm puzzled by the seeming resistance to going amateur. It levels the field for all teams and means that we could have a bigger and more inclusive league. A ten team league just doesn't cut it and we can't even sustain that many professional clubs as it is. I just don't see the point in paying players to play when most of them would play anyway just for the love of the game. Any money generated should be re-invested in facilities, promotion and coaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
There's a big difference in being negative and being realistic. I admire the tenaciousness of the contributors on this thread but I can only view what's being happening in the LoI recently as nothing short of a disaster especially after all of the attempts down through the years to bring back the good old days. It's time to be radical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
Facilities for who? Coaching for who? Promotion of what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
I want my club to improve, and win games and tournaments. If my club has enough money to pay players to play for us who wouldn't otherwise play for us, I want them to use that money to attract players. Not instead of improvements to facilities, but in conjunction with it.
You seem to be approaching this from the point of view that the function of an LOI club should be to play its part in generating the best national team possible, with all else second to that. But that isn't and shouldn't be the role of any LOI club.
Now I must sign off. Thank you all for your contributions and I hope I didn't offend anyone. And to be absolutely clear - I do not want to get rid of the League of Ireland. I just want to see it reformed and re-invigorated. G'night all.
the professional clubs can do the exact same thing if they dont go crazy chasing the dream i cant understand how you dont se this? they would also have people working full time on it if they so wish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
aswell going amature woould kill the quality of the game and we would go back to being hammered in europe making the league much less attractive. every countrys league is in trouble not just ours for christ sake
Facilities for League of Ireland fans that go to matches; Coaching for LoI teams; Promotion of the League - particularly in local communitiesQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
In my opinion there just isn't enough money to do both to any significant extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I agree that it is not the role of any individual club. It is up to each club to the very best it can for itself. It is up to the FAI to ensure that the national team is given the very best opportunity to succeed at international level.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The problem is that clubs do go 'crazy' chasing the dream. LoI teams don't exactly thrive in Europe unless you call 'not getting hammered' success. We're not every country and we've had serious problems going back to the early 1970's. Many attempts (including the Giles/Rovers project, the Fried Chicken era, right up to the latest merger of the FAI & LoI) have been made to make the League more attractive to the Irish public. Nothing has worked so maybe it's time to wake up and smell the rust on the turnstiles and get realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
So on the one hand you are all for improving facilities, better coaching, and more promotion, but on the other hand,Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
these promotions don't work and we should just give up even attempting to have professional teams, and attept to run an amateur league. The punters who won't pay to watch the LOI as it is now are hardly going to pay to watch a new lower standard amateur league, are they? You say you want to see it reinvigorated, but what you want to do would see the opposite happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
her plan is to kill the league and to make our national team full of amature players by the sounds of things? no amature player will ever get near the national team so how would the league be any use? young promising players wont have the same quality of oposition or coaching or training time as they would have if they were professional,, so wont reach their full potential.. and sending them over to england is sch a defeatiat attitude just addmitting we arnt good enough.. it can work here everyone knows it its jst a case of finding the right ballence which addimitidly has not been struck yet but i do think the club is nearing sustainability. also with more fan run clubs like the shiney new cork and derry and also rovers aswell as what fingar are trying to do clubs are definitley beginning to grow roots in their communities, whyle every other club means a heall of a lot ot their fans, your plan would just undo any good work these people have done.. also if clubs turn amatrue how will they cover their existing debt?
and aswell what do the hundreds of lads currently employed do for money if we suddenly decide to stop paying them all??
I'm all for fans taking control of the clubs. The money men don't have the best interests of Irish football at heart. They just want to turn a quick buck. Put not your faith in princes. They flatter to deceive. If all clubs were owned and controlled by the fans there would be greater stability and certainty about the future.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree but I am curious about what your vision for the future of the League. It's virtually a Dublin & District league now (as Des Cahill said earlier) so where to from here?
Clearly there is an importance to having the LOI, probably best addressed by weecountyman
http://foot.ie/threads/132005-What-R...=1#post1324055
but the problem is it should have a much greater role to play, Genesis was high on ambition but light on detail that doesn’t mean that some of those aims were unachievable.
My real issue here is that LOI Clubs & the FAI (who bear a huge responsibility) should be offering kids the opportunity to get coaching to the standard available over the pond at home. This isn’t happening and while the FAI are making steps towards this the LOI is failing to keep up mainly because so many of them were busy chasing the Champions’ League Group Stages dream that they forgot about all other aspects
The League is not the pinnacle, the National team is. Whether you want to believe that or not I would think a quick look at the FAI would show that they are built around the national side, ask any player and his dream whether he’s 18 or 28 would be to play for his country.
I agree with Soccremom’s assertion that the clubs need to have a greater role in the local community, the real issue is for a pyramid to work it should be a local pyramid, ie the local LOI side should be the pinnacle for local football. It should have the best schoolboys in the region, which then can feed upwards to a centre of excellence, the reality is the relationship between LOI Clubs & their junior leagues are often fractious.
From my knowledge of local & underage soccer in Ireland, the FAI seem to be skipping the middleman and going straight to junior leagues to get their talent, this suggests to me that the LOI clubs are being marginalised in the process which doesn’t bode well.
It’s a catch 22 in many ways without professionalism the clubs may struggle to attract schoolboys but the advert should be the players like Doyle, Coleman etc.. who have gone virtually straight from the LOI into the EPL.
Totally disagree about the national team being the be all and end all. It certainly is very important because it's the flagship for the game in this country and also of course the cash cow. But the overall game is what the FAI should be and hopefully are about both in terms of getting as many people involved as possible and facilitating those with the ability getting to the highest level they can.
Another point (that seems to be missed) is that it's not only the LOI that pays players- many junior and especially intermediate clubs around the country are also shelling out money to players. I know that Harps struggle to match the terms available from Ulster Senior League clubs at times. LOI clubs ask player to train harder and travel further and without financial reward (or the prospect thereof once you prove yourself) it would be very hard to attract the best players to the league.
Football has always been a professional game and that won't change, whether you pay mostly legit (as in LOI) or under the table (intermediate and junior). I do think wages have been far too high, but the arms race effect is very hard to combat. Clubs will always want to do well and improve themselves- as will players, and if you remove the senior game or effectively neuter it you'll be taking a massive amount of drive and energy out of the game.
Also- despite the doom and gloom about the league- it's been around a hell of a long time and there's no sign whatsoever of it ending. Thousands of people, mostly voluntary, give up their time, money and energy to keep the show on the road.
I fear that what we see here is another quest for a silver bullet to suddenly make it all work. That isn't going to happen. Gradual improvement through better regulation and an (also probably gradual) change of culture towards sustainable clubs is the way to go.
Fans owned clubs in a fans run league ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
Coming back to my original post it is a gross exaggeration to state that the League of Ireland is strategically important to Irish football. It has marginal influence or relevance to either the the international team or to the schoolboys set-up. And while it is true to say that the League has been around for a long time and probably will be into the future - if it is not reformed radically it will remain peripheral to the vast numbers of Irish people that are interested in football. There is huge interest in football - the League clubs must find a way to tap into it. But that simply won't happen if we just keep doing more of the same. Once again I reference our GAA and rugby cousins in sport. One has worked assiduously on the local community base. The other chose a revolution to deal with the challenges that confronted it . If the League people want to keep the heads stuck in the sand then things will just continue muddle on from crisis to crisis. It's a deeply depressing prospect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Your post just now kind of makes the above post out to be a lie though, doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
Crap league, won't change, look at GAA, heads in sand, blah blah blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccer Mom
Why didn't you just say what you felt at the start?
I know others have addressed some of these issues but the thread title is “What Role Does the League of Ireland play in Irish Football” and the Op’s main question is “is the League of Ireland is strategically important to football in Ireland?” so I’ll start from the beginning and quite possibly cover some old ground.
The obvious answer to “What role does the league play in Irish football” is that it represents the highest playing standard attainable in the country. There are numerous good leagues around the country at junior and intermediate level, but like all sports there is a drive to test your team in the widest arena possible, this sees the development of Elite national competitions in practically all sports. Football is no different, the best players want to test themselves at the highest level attainable and this is inevitably a national level which can become a gateway to international level, sometimes the best players will skip the national level and move straight to an international level, others will develop at national level and make the transition (Kevin Doyle being the prime League of Ireland example).
Strategically the league also provide a soft landing for many of the thousands of players who travel to British Leagues in their teens but fail to settle or make the grade. A professional or semi professional national league allows these players to continue to pursue a career in football at an elite level and makes a later transition back to playing at a top professional level much easier than coming from an amateur team (see Brian Murphy, Keith Fahey, Colin Healy).
While professional football may be difficult to sustain it is not impossible and a mixture of professional, semi-professional and amateur should be encouraged rather than dismissed, if anything this type of structure provides more of a pyramid of progression for late developers as they can play in the national league at amateur level, attract attention from semi-pro and pro teams and move up accordingly (see most of the players than have come through UCD).
There are obvious issues with facilities at many clubs and the competition between many junior leagues and the League of Ireland is one of the greatest barriers to the development of football in this country. If the junior leagues better facilitated the national leagues and looked to them as something for their players to aspire to the league could be infinitely more valuable in terms of allowing players to develop within the country rather than shipping them abroad at 15. Yes facilities and management at many clubs are poor but measures are in place to improve them and licensing (no laughing down the back) has led to definite improvements. I think the level of coaching is grossly underestimated (as is the standard of play) in the league, many of the coaches are qualified to the highest European standards and all of them are highly qualified.
Having an elite national league is also necessary to combat the drain of elite players to other major sports such as GAA and rugby, Kevin Doyle would more than likely be playing for the Wexford hurlers had he not been given the opportunity to progress through St. Pat’s and Cork City, many other players only prioritise football at a young age because it represents the most likely path to a professional sports career and the more opportunities presented to pursue this the better.
The League of Ireland in it’s current form could well benefit from reform but it doesn’t diminish the fact that it is strategically important as it stands and it will always be the case that the national elite league in any sport is of vital strategic importance. If anything the biggest issue is that it’s importance is underestimated from grass roots to the top of the FAI.
I don't think you really understand football at all to be honest - you are talking about something you have never experienced or felt.
The LOi is the be all and end all for many Irish people. I have zero interest in the national team where all I see is over rated rubbish, boring and annoying fans, and very little fun and passion.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the product (apart from the license debacle), the standard of football is great, the LOI supporters are passionate, and the LOI is doing better in Europe. Small as we are as a bunch we make up for it in effort and love of the game. Its not the job of the LOI to attract more fans (well maybe) - its more the case of the general Irish public not having a real interest in football or supporting their own. Leave the product alone, its fine, change the mentality of the fair weather band jumping Irish "fan".
Everyone who supports the National Team should get up, get out and support the LoI.
It won't interfere with the National Team's matches or the EnglishPremierLeague. It wont cost a lot of money to do so. They will get to see live football instead of cheering and shouting at the box on the wall, urging "Their Team" on thru' the plug on the wall. The bigger and more succesful the LoI, the better the chance of Schoolboy players will get the coaching etc we would all like to see. Sure don't alot of the LoI teams have a schoolboy section. I know Shels, Pats, Bohs and Shamrock Rovers do.
Their is no comparison between the LoI and EPL. The LoI is so much better, because its so accessable, though you would never tell with the barstoolers or sofa supporters. You can't beat live football. you could be watching an exciting episode of EastEnders as watching the EPL ffs. People who call themselves fans of football but don't support the League here have to have some responsibility. You can't have it all ways.
I support Shels. My son plays for Shels (schoolboys). I have been to england to see my son play the Sunderland Acadamy, and beat them comfortably. I see the gulf between the Sunderland Acadamy and Shels schoolboy setup in terms of finance. But the football itself was equal. My boy wants to play for Shels and Ireland......How about that! I love to match Man U on the box and have gone to Old Trafford a few times, I love going to see our national Team play too. But its not all about the shiny product, not on a cold Saturday/Sunday morning when you bring you kid to play.....or Friday/Saturday night in the LoI. Its the Irish football, at any level that's important.
All the LoI dismissers should go to experience it before shouting it down. They should bring their kids who are interested in football. Its real football. You meet the same people every week and you feel part of something. You see the mistakes made by officials without the replays...Real life ya know. Everbody can be part of it. That is the radical overhaul needed.....
Simples :-)
I'd much rather have the league than the national team - and I suspect most people on here would too. 'What role does the League play in Irish football?' - quite simply, the most important. And the fans of the league are the best in the world.
Passinginterest's post is a great one and makes many very good points.
I think the question for me is from a national point of view (so club allegiance to one side) does the league fall between two stools? Is it existing only to serve itself or should it be aiming towards a higher goal?
Most national leagues are feeders for their national team or for smaller leagues they are the breeding ground for young players who move onwards and upwards. While that may not be their primary goal it is certainly the outcome.
The LOI is closer to the second goal but I think until the tide of 15 year olds is halted or slowed to a trickle, questions remain.