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Ive always wondered about this one... Is Gary Doherty an attacker who can do a job in defence, or a dodgy defender who can help out in the attack now and then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle_Joe
Even his managers don't know
would you agree with the statement that O'Shea was one of the most study players in the last campaign though?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I do understand what you say about the thread context but going with that, a Welsh person could call Ryan Giggs overrated. I cant believe we cant take into account the club preformance just b/c a guy is Irish.
your right sorry i was on a roll!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangball
its an opinion i have of the man as a player, for ireland not for liverpool for ireland! less of the slags pleaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Wangball
"Overrated" or just cr+p like the team you selected. To be overrated you have not only have to be rated, but overrated. For instance, take Paul McGrath. A very good player but could walk on water for most Irish fans and could do not wrong. Is that overrating him? Was he viewed in the same light across the water? I think we overrate most of our players to be honest and before I am shot, I am only using McGrath as an example of possibly overrating someone. Most people regard McGrath as one of the best players in the world but while he was one of the best Irish players, I think he was overrated as being one of the world's best.
Packie Bonner
Chris Morris
Gary Breen
Paul McGrath
Ian Harte
Tony Galvin
Matt Holland
Mick Martin
John Alridge
Kevin Doyle
Aiden McGeady
I think you'll find the same opinion from fans at his clubsQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
From what i remember he was voted one of Aston Villa's greatest ever players, and their fans absolutely worship him, so yes, he was viewed in the same light across the waterQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Slags? You need to be slightly less sensitive pal, its not personal.Quote:
Originally Posted by gael353
How can you judge whether he was over rated based solely on his international career? Thats crazy
Whats your criteria for including Stokes in your team? He has 3 caps, so if judged solely on his international career and I don't think any of the caps were starts (open to correction here), he really hasn't had much of a chance to make any kind of impression, so how can you judge him to be over-rated as an international.....any hype or expectation that built up around him started because of his club career, you can't seperate the 2
This is a very subjective thread, its all about individual opinion obviously but I don't think the question of being "over rated" really comes into it, its more a case of some players possibly having over achieved despite being quite average or whatever(John O'Shea, possibly Houghton, maybe Bonner) and other players under achieving despite seemingly having all the natural talent in the word (McGeady, Garvan, Stokes etc)
Edit....on the theme of how players were viewed at their clubs (See Hibs4Ever's above post) Houghton was voted 52nd on the list of 100 Players that Shook the Kop, did they over rate him?
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibs4Ever
Was at a Villa game once. He came on as a sub and every single Villa fan got down on their knees in praise of the man. I couldnt believe the love.
WTF Mcgrath was easily one of the best players during his time, I would have him second to Baresi in my all time defender listQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Re game v italy in World cup, or any of Villas euro games (genoa?)
Owlsfan,
McGrath is very respected and remembered fondly by United fans and, despite the injuries and subsequent alcohol problems leading to Ferguson forcing him out, hes considered one of the United greats during a tough time for United. He made 159 appearances in 7 seasons and only won an FA Cup. Heres an interesting article which fouceses on his days with United. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...uel-Nadal.html
When he moved to Villa, McGrath was superb widely considered as top class for a good Villa team. He was voted players player of the year back in the 90's and was in the Premier League teams of the season on more than one occasion and all this with seriously dodgy knees and still struggling with the booze. Oh, and he played til he was 38 with good success and great displays.
The man oozed class from beginning with Pats (where he was also loved) to the end with Derby and Sheffield United and his dominace of the 90 and 94 World Cups surely place him up there with the best in the world.
My favourite Irish player of all time (if you hadnt already worked that out) ;)
How is Paul McGrath these days Stu, do you have any idea? Healthy?
I think everyone overrates their country except for the Germans, they underrate their players.
If players like Doyle were another nationality most on here probably would not even know him. Even Given, I doubt if he wasn't Irish so many people would laud him as one of the worlds best. Why I say that is because when people always name the best goalkeepers its always buffon and casilias mentioned as well as english league goalkeepers. u never hear anyone mentioning bundesliga keepers even though they have quality keepers
well i was drinkin with him the other day. He got a bit gee eyed but other than that he seemed grandQuote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Never knew Roy was new manager of the Irish teamQuote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
He's not that young.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCross06
Incidentally, I'd have Colgan in ahead of Murphy and Mcgeady in there ahead of Hunt.
Colgan was never rated, never mind over-rated
I know this will sound a bit tough, but how many games of top international class quality (not world class) did Roy Keane have for Ireland? I've tried thinking back to his earliest impact and can come up with 5. Does that make him overrated for Ireland?
Maybe many on here are too young to remember pre-Italy 1990, but pre-Euro '88 Pat Bonner was a fine keeper and he took off some of the finest saves home and away against Scotland, and home to Bulgaria, as well as one unbelievable piledriver from a Luxembourg player, to get us through to Germany. And in Stuttgart denied a really top class English side with every part of his body when the defence were overwhelmed. He did the same against the two eventual finalists, keeping out rockets from the USSR and was only undone by an offside (by about 2 miles) goal against Holland. Other than that for the entire game he was imperious.
He played excellent against England in Italy, the same against Romania (including the penalty save) and was unlucky with the shot against Italy when Ireland were done by a home ref (remember Niall Quinn getting broken up piece by piece?). I always felt that Bonner suffered by the introduction of the no pass back rule as he lacked the skill and ball control with his feet.
My Team would be purely based on the last 10 years:
Brian Murphy(I know he hasnt played a game for Ireland yet but to say he's Givens replacement is a joke, bring Dean Kiely back)
Gary Kelly
Kenny Cunningham
Paul McShane
Kevin Kilbane
Andy Reid
Liam Miller(next Roy Keane...yeah right)
Glenn Whelan
James McCarthy(he cant even get into a Wigan team)
Clinton Morrison
Leon Best(Hes muck, pure muck, how does he get on ahead of Shane Long etc)
Cunningham's underrated, I think. Very solid player.
Could argue the same for Kelly and maybe Morrison. And Kilbane's about the most underrated player we've ever had.
This is a bizarre example but if you ever look at the ex players dream XI on the back of 442 magazine, McGrath is the most regular Irish player selected, Keane second, just shows how highly the guy was rated, outside of Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Murphy and James McCarthy havent even played for Ireland yet FFS. How the fck can they be overrated???Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillonman
In fairness, McCarthy's agent had been doing the rounds saying how Barcelona were very interested in him. He was on trial with Liverpool at age sixteen and had put in a full 100 appearances for his club at the senior level by his 18th birthday! He was so over-hyped that I, along with others, expected him to be in Wigan's first team from day one. Perhaps that is our fault, not his, but either way, he was very over-rated given his agent's comments and the talk on here surrounding his future.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
fair enough but agents are known to hype up their players for obvious reasons. Id take most of what they say with a pinch of salt.
If you look at the facts, he played over 100 times in a tough league and was a top performer each week for Hamilton, as a 17 and 18 year old he represented the Irish U21 team with good reviews and held his own with the senior squad by all accounts, he just scored his first goal with Wigan with a young ambitious manager who obviously rates him highly and he is only just turned 19 years old.
Surely still an excellent prospect for the future instead of an overrated failure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Personally I think he's failed to make an impact at the top level and I don't think he ever will. I would love nothing better than to be totally wrong, obviously we always need more Irish players playing at the top level to ensure success for the national team.
I know this sounds ludicrous seeing as he's only just turned nineteen, and I hope and pray that you're on here five years from now bumping this thread to prove what an idiot I am. I just don't see it happening for him, as I think it would have happened by now. Wigan are hardly world beaters, even on their best day, and he can't get into their Premiership starting XI.
That said, the way he was over-hyped, anything less than an Irish version of Ronaldo and I would have been disappointed, which is my fault, not his. I wish him all the luck in the world, hopefully things work out for him and he can get some games under his belt in 2010.
facebook generation.
Instant gratification or nothing.
Hardly. I'm much older than you son. McCarthy has shown nothing at the top level. The SPL is only a "tough league", as you put it, because most of the players are muck who can't tackle properly. McCarthy has never shown he is capable of anything at the top level. There's nothing wrong with that, plenty of players can get it done at the semi-professional level like the LOI and the MLS, but fail at the top level. McCarthy is one of those players I fear. Hopefully I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
you do realise that MLS and LOI are professional leagues? As is the SPL.
What is this "top level" that you refer to? Whats your definition? He's already scored against a premiership club which is the highest level he can aspire to currently... Im just not sure why you are insisting on branding a 19 year old talent as a failure and refusing to give him a year or two to adjust to a new city, new club, new manager and new team-mates?
Its bizarre. I dont get it. The fact that your "much older" than me makes it worse in a lot of ways. I was hoping id start to make more sense as i grow older.
One can tell that you were educated in Canada and not Ireland. Instead of writing "your much older", you should have written "you're much older." Pathetic really.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The MLS and LOI are not fully professional leagues. Most players in both leagues do not make a full time living playing football, as most have second jobs to supplement their income. Most MLS players are on very little money - http://www.mlsplayers.org/salary_info.html
I will admit that I don't know much about the LOI but I can't imagine that the average salary is more than a two or three hundred euro a week. You can't tell me that these guys are feeding their families on that kind of money.
We're getting off topic - this thread is about over-rated players, and McCarthy certainly fits into that category given the hype that has surrounded him for the past three years. He's done nothing, absolutely nothing at the top level. A goal against a Hull reserve team in an early round of a cup that nobody cares about anymore is not going to change my opinion of him, sorry.
ah lord blessus
way to miss the point i was making just so you could have a dig.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
You didnt answer my question - i dont think you ever answer a direct question, you just drag things off topic - what is your definition of the top level and what are you expecting McCarthy to have done by now as a 19 year old? Are you not prepared to allow him some time to adjust to all these new things before writing him off? And if not, why not?
regarding the off topic stuff you mentioned:
I moved to Canada 3 years ago by the way. Educated in Ireland all the way through university. Though as you can probably gather it wasnt an english degree although its not like my improper use of your vs. you're should make a difference to the point im making at all.
MLS is a professional league - those salaries you linked to look pretty healthy, the lowest is for young players and is around $20k, decent money for a young professional - anyway, its a professional league see the first line here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer
LOI salaries range from e300 per week (for younger players) to e20000 for the top players. Certain players have, in the past, made up to e3000 (or more) per week. Certainly enough to keep a young family well fed.
But please focus on answering the questions that i have bolded. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
You haven't bolded any questions, but I'll give it a shot to placate you.
The top level is the top divisions in England, Spain, Italy or Germany. Given the hype surrounding McCarthy the past few years, I would have at least expected him to be making regular substitute appearances for Wigan, one of the worst teams in the Premiership. I can't understand why you're attacking me so much - either you have personal problems of your own that you're taking out on me or else you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "over-rated XI". McCarthy was supposedly being looked at by all the top clubs in the world and ended up at Wigan. That is in itself a major disappointment.
At this point, I would have expected him to be at least on the bench for Wigan, but he's not. No, I'm not prepared to allow him a full season for "adjustment". At his age, he should be fit as a fiddle and out there running with the big boys. Nineteen is not a young player nowadays, look up how young most players are when they break into Premiership teams and you'll be surprised. As far as I'm concerned, this season will have been a total waste for McCarthy if a twenty minute sub appearance at Manchester United and an FA Cup third round goal against Hull's reserves are the highlights of his season.
fair enough - then all i will say is you have unrealistic expectations. Im prepared to give McCarthy more time before writig him off as a failure. I think that it is absolute insanity that you are ready to write him off already. As for no time for adjustment, you think its unreasonable that a young lad (who has been through the sh!t he has been through from Scottish media and fans for declaring for Ireland) should be given the benefit of the doubt by Irish fans (like yourself) when moving to a new city, new club etc etc. Insane.
Out of interest, could you show me the article where you have seen what average age players are when they break into premiership teams as i would find it interesting and very surprising if it was younger than 20 or 21.
so anyone playing outside these leagues is automatically a bad player?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
He was injured in preseason so took time to get back to full fitness. He's been playing and scoring for the reserves, and has been an unused substitute quite a bit recently. I'm reasonably happy with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Because you're being overly critical of a 19 year old player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Possibly, but was Robbie Keane's move from Wolves to Coventry at a similar age an equal disappointment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Yes he is - http://tetsujin1979.appspot.com/ClubDetails?ClubID=2783Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Been on the bench in 5 of the last 6 games
Why not? The likes of Pires took at least that to adjust to the Premier League and he was an established French international when he moved to ArsenalQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Said it above, he was injured in pre-season and didn't start training properly until September, he missed out on a lot of pre-season training when the majority of intensive cardio training is done to prepare you for the seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
You'd be hard pressed to put together a team of nineteen year olds who have broken into the starting team in the Premier League this season. Even the likes of Arsenal, who are known for pushing youth players into the first team, don't have more than 2 or 3 in their squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
I'd say McCarthy has broken into the matchday squad, the next step is the first team
It's not. He started against Blackpool in the League Cup and was substituted on 65 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
Do you really think he's not going to play again this season?
well said Tets, certainly better than i could ever put it.
Just regarding your second last point - Jack Wilshere, extemely highly rated and possibly the most talented player i have seen in a long time - i saw him play for Arsenal in a pre-season tournament and he was absolutely outstanding. I thought he would be a stand out player in the premier league this season but his appearances have been limited to Carling Cup (i think).
I dont see anyone writing him off as a failure yet just because he failed to breakthrough as a teenager...
You forgot to capitalise the first letter there Stu. I'm afraid that invalidates your entire argument and means you know nothing about football.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Dolan
the new year is but 2 days old and I doubt I will read a more ridiculous post than that above for the rest of 2010
LOL!!Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Dolan
I would put Houghton in the underrated players teams. Never got the credit he deserved and was probably the most effective player of the Charlton era. Nothing to do with the goals he scored. He covered every blade of grass for the team and seldom gave the ball away. Perpetual motion in action and effective with the ball at his feet. What more could you ask of a player, especially in a Charlton team, where the emphasis was on closing down the opposition?Quote:
Originally Posted by gael353
Kenny Cunningham was an underrated player, solid, dependable and reliable. Good mid-level epl standard. I remember a televised cup game about 5-6 years ago when he held the Birmigham defence together. He came at a time when Ireland were in transition from being a solid defensive side to playing football, which was going to be difficult. Be he had a decent career and never "bigged it up".
Other keepers I loved............Volkan Demirel, Ladic Drazen, Ricardo,Quote:
Originally Posted by irishultra
A Isaksson, Ravelli, Boruc (before he went mad), Kahn, Campos, Preud'homme, Taffarel..........................You see we are not all closeted with the EPL:)