Sinn Féin leadership and the IRA

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Originally posted by SÓC
But isnt that silly. Letting pride get in the way of progress.

If the war is effectively over why not call a spade a spade and say its over. No mention of the word surrender.

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No, it's not silly. The 'War', for many, won't be over until we have independence. Nor will the IRA (or something similar) will go away until we have independence.
There's a lot more than just pride involved in explaining why people won't say that the war is over. Drawing from experience of members of my own family (who grew up in Creggan, in Derry), it would be very difficult for them to admit that the war is over until the Brits leave. They've seen too many of their friends being shot dead. It was against the backdrop of incidents like Bloody Sunday and other British army/RUC killings many people joined the IRA. At very least, they'll want justice before declaring that their war is over.

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Originally posted by SÓC
Say the war is over, decommission the weapons. Disband the IRA.

Wait for the Unionist reaction. They would have no choice, no choice what so ever but to share power with SF. From there its just a slippery slope to a United Ireland.

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The rejectionist Unionists will never be satisfied. They will always find something to excuse themselves from playing their role. There's still an attitude held of "We don't want a Fenian about the place [Stormont]". They wish only to go back to the days of "A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people". Unfortunately, it really does seem that there are those who just do not want to share power with Catholics.

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Originally posted by max power
while workin the the north of Ireland i have been followed to the border by a car and told not to return next week to work, while traveling to other gigs my company provided us with yellow number plates so our cars would not stand out, the war is over eh ??? this is the sort of rubbish that i'm on about, move on and life youe life and not other peoples.....

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That was most likely the Red Hand Defenders (cover name for various loyalist groups), who threatened to shoot any car with a southern registration plate.

Ask the relatives of Rosemary Nelson or Danny McColgan if they are willing to simply "move on".
Personally, I can't 'move on' until, at very least, the British army is withdrawn from the streets of the north and the RUC/PSNI is fully reformed. And don't think my views are in any way extreme. Personally, I've suffered very little as a direct result of the Brits (was shot with a plastic bullet once when I was 8, and have been called a 'Paddy *******' or something similar on a few occasions), so it's a bit unrealistic to expect those who have suffered worse to be able to just draw a line in the sand and forget the past.
The past must be addressed before we can look to the future.

"the past must be adressed before we move to the future" that is the most sensible comment yet, looking and reflecting on our mistakes ( and yes i do mean our...both sides of the border and both sides of the political divide), not trying to create more problems...........

Lads, I'm not in the least interested in the Civil War, it was still causing trouble and strife in my own family up to about 10 years ago.
But on the topic of this thread:
There is no party going before the electorate in this country with as disreputable a bunch of candidates as SF (well, maybe those freaks in the in the Immigration Control crowd).
The fact that some of them are allowed to stand at all is disgraceful. It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.

But the so called liberal, caring, upstanding righteous Progessive Democrats, have a man, who is their effective leader, making a mockery of his profession, office and this so called republic, by his antics and mouthing off. Its SF now, but this creep is slowly but surely attacking virtually every civil liberty we have in this country.
He is making it acceptable to cast the most serious slurs against people, without a shred of proof, uses the most emotive threats to keep information from people that are entitled to it. He is an enthusiastic proponent of repealing the Freedom of Information Act, he has done nothing about the police force in this country, and wants to give the same highly suspect force increased powers to do what ever they like.
We all know exactly what Adams and Co. are, and can be wary of them.
It's the wolf in sheeps clothing that is far more likely to damage this society than any of the laughable semantics of SF.

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Originally posted by Conor74
Developers are, more often than not, pretty hard nosed businessmen.

They are hardly going to start throwing money at parties that get a position of power once in a blue moon.

It's only natural that FF would have more corruption. It comes with the territory of being the biggest party. It's only natural that FG would be next, they've had their spells in office. As for the others, come on, like someone's gonna throw money to the Communist Party of Ireland to get a Section 4 plannng motion through? They say power corrupts, when the fringe parties get power they'll see it too, as it stands they'll have to go back and dust down their printing presses...ahem...

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C'mon Conor...:rolleyes:
No matter what size your party is or how many times you are asked, you CAN say no.....

brendy-eire there will be a united ireland. the birth rates and last few census seem to indicate this.

IMO the british government and the british people want rid of northern ireland.

i wonder how the unionists would react if scotland became independent? c'mon the snp!


Actually the SNP are a good example of how a political wish for independence can be progressed without the need for terrorism

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Originally posted by eoinh



Actually the SNP are a good example of how a political wish for independence can be progressed without the need for terrorism

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Very little state-sponsored terrorism or collusion or British Army on the streets or protestors being killed or lack of civil rights or jerrymandering or appalling housing and job prospects for the Catholic people of Scotland. No comparison whatsoever.

KOH

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Originally posted by patsh
But the so called liberal, caring, upstanding righteous Progessive Democrats, have a man, who is their effective leader, making a mockery of his profession, office and this so called republic, by his antics and mouthing off. Its SF now, but this creep is slowly but surely attacking virtually every civil liberty we have in this country.
He is making it acceptable to cast the most serious slurs against people, without a shred of proof, uses the most emotive threats to keep information from people that are entitled to it.

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In fairness he's deliberately made the allegations outside the Dáil so SF have the option of suing him for libel if it's not true. I'll still vote for a Raman ahead of McDowell any day.

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Originally posted by WeAreRovers
Very little state-sponsored terrorism or collusion or British Army on the streets or protestors being killed or lack of civil rights or jerrymandering or appalling housing and job prospects for the Catholic people of Scotland. No comparison whatsoever.

KOH

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Maybe thats because there was no real equivalent of the IRA in Scotland.

(i know there was the SNLA but they were tiny- or are, if they still exist)

Also the SNP have never won a majority of the seats or popular vote in Scotland unlike Ireland where the Union has lost every election since the franchise became reasonably broad and the Brits just ignored it.

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Originally posted by Macy
btw the majority of people supported the treaty.
btw2 he continued to support the IRA in the north after the treaty
btw3 Dev and Co's problem with the treaty wasn't partition, it was with the oath.

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btw 4, one thing always conveniently forgotten by our friends in the north is that the six counties were the least supportive of the republic (the real republic ;) ) during the Tan War. It was the one place the nationalist party wan' blown away.

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Originally posted by brendy_eire
And as for the PDs, they sicken me to be honest. Ultra-capitalist, right wing scum, who'd like to see pensioners thrown out onto the street for not being able to afford being put in care.
McDowell really shows his ignorance by calling SF 'Nazis',

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Yeah the PD's are very sinister alright. They're even worse than the Nazis in many respects. They even make Fine Gael look like a bunch of pinko lefties. The PD's support the New World Order of Bush and Blair and want to destroy the last remnants of Irish identity like the Irish language.

Their aim is to turn Ireland into the 51st state of the United States. Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Eamonn de Valera would be turning in their graves at the thought of those scumbags being in government.

The ''shadow policing'' is an excellent reason not to vote for him, mind you seems to me like JHR is taking the **** out of South Kerry, which is worse ? :D

PR trust you london, national team supporters to lower the tone of the discussion :rolleyes:

Re: Ferris being a vigo according to SuperKev.

Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?


[SIZE=1]
Actually that reminds me of a great football chant. Last season up in Richmond for one of the matches against Pats the City fans singing

Pusher Pusher Pusher
OUT OUT OUT

Made me laugh
[/SIZE]

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Originally posted by SÓC


Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?

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You cant rely on them. They're all at sea :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by patsh
There is no party going before the electorate in this country with as disreputable a bunch of candidates as SF (well, maybe those freaks in the in the Immigration Control crowd).
The fact that some of them are allowed to stand at all is disgraceful. It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.

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Definately the most sensible words spoken so far in this thread.

I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.

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Originally posted by Colm
I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.

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Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Besides, Ferris has served his time. Our justice system is based on the assumption that people can change.

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Originally posted by brendy_eire
Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it? :rolleyes:

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Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.

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Originally posted by Colm
Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.

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The same methods as those used during the War of Independence.
What methods did you expect the IRA to use exactly then? Use of tanks, aircraft and open combat weren't options. The use of guerilla tactic was the only viable option for the IRA since its creation. They wouldn't have stood a chance in open combat. You can't defeat a guerilla army, it's the obvious choice.

IMO if Pearse et al hadnt used violence during 1916 we would now have a free, independent and united ireland.


The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.

There are many more examples where peaceful protest won out in the end. As for fighting - who remembers Biafra?


Gandhi was the man.

As the hunger stiker Terence Mac Swiney once said, "It's not those who can inflict the most, but those who can suffer the most who will conquer".

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Originally posted by eoinh
(a) IMO if Pearse et al hadnt used violence during 1916 we would now have a free, independent and united ireland.

(b)The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.

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(a)There is no eveidence for that whatsoever.

(b)Actually the Brits have said they've no selfish or strategic interest in Ireland so that's not true either.

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Originally posted by TommyT
(b)Actually the Brits have said they've no selfish or strategic interest in Ireland so that's not true either.

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Thats cos they haven't - Norn Iron is a drain on their resources and has been for decades.

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Originally posted by davros
Good to see the good'old'(very old!)rebel? county of Corcaigh getting stuck right in......

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Sure you must have been so proud all the times London blown up.

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Originally posted by SÓC
Politically they already have made Adams look very stupid.

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Thats the key to it- POLITICALLY. The whole thing was politically motivated. Regardless of whether or not Gerry Adams was in the IRA (and i think most people accept he was involved in some way at some stage) this whole thing has set the peace process back for the sake of a few votes. The Peace Process should be above politics- its something everyone should be helping along, not using it as a political football because SF are doing well in the polls.

Personally I couldn't give a monkeys whether Gerry Adams was in the IRA or not. Without him there would still be a war going on and hundreds of people more would have died, and the likes of McDowell would do well to remember that.


Most laughable comment of the whole saga was Michael McDowell claiming in an interview with the Star that he was "more of a nationalist than Gerry Adams will ever be.":rolleyes:

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Originally posted by patsh
It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.

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I'm sure a signifcant minority on this island might have felt the same way about Michael Collins, and de valera and all those other people who were in our first Dáil all those years ago. Everyone is entitled to a second chance.

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Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Yeah the PD's are very sinister alright. They're even worse than the Nazis in many respects. They even make Fine Gael look like a bunch of pinko lefties. The PD's support the New World Order of Bush and Blair and want to destroy the last remnants of Irish identity like the Irish language.

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The PDs just want swimming pools full of money to arse around with, and they don't want anything or anyone getting in the way of that- be it pensioners, immigrants or god forbid nationalists. They are the ultimate refuge of the cold-hearted capitalist. The fact that they are in power in theis country is probably the greatest single blow to the reputation of Irish people as kind and welcoming in our history.

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Originally posted by eoinh
The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.

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rubbish. if they hadn't done what they did, you'd still have those bowler-hatted dinosaurs ruling the roost in stormont, and letting their friendly local paramilitary, oops I mean police, force kick taigs up and down the street whenever they felt like it. The IRA campaign made two mistakes IMO;
1. They targetted civilians, when they should have stuck entirely to targetting forces of occupation i.e. Army and RUC.
2. They should have called a halt at least 5 years earlier.

The history of the British occupation of this island has been violence followed by negotiation. That process has been followed tim after time after time, and while its not nice or right I don't think we would have got this far without it. Some people just don't understand talking

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Originally posted by Conor74
Hear hear, even Joe Higgins TD...

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Going off topic, but he was right when he said it was the thin end of the wedge. See the building levy's for starters.....

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Originally posted by Éanna
rubbish. if they hadn't done what they did, you'd still have those bowler-hatted dinosaurs ruling the roost in stormont, and letting their friendly local paramilitary, oops I mean police, force kick taigs up and down the street whenever they felt like it. The IRA campaign made two mistakes IMO;
1. They targetted civilians, when they should have stuck entirely to targetting forces of occupation i.e. Army and RUC.
2. They should have called a halt at least 5 years earlier.

The history of the British occupation of this island has been violence followed by negotiation. That process has been followed tim after time after time, and while its not nice or right I don't think we would have got this far without it. Some people just don't understand talking

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The IRA campaign ruled out political advancement for 25 years. It stifled any chance for economic development in the south as well during that period. Criminal activity as well by them continues still. The British have wanted to get rid of NI for a long time now.

Remember tonight when you're watching the news that the death and destruction that happened in Spain was also heaped on people in this island using the same methods. Tortutre and mutilation is not something to br proud of, The IRA routinely used torture and mutilation.

Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.

The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.

If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.

It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.

We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.

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Originally posted by Conor74
Some criminal acts are more objectionable than others? Or just that TDs convicted of offences and jailed who are Socialist are okay, whereas Sinn Fein TDs who have never been convicted of anything (and they don't all have records to match Ferris) deserve approbation?

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Blocking a bin truck compared to the kinda stuff that's on the news? Are you serious Conor? Was it a criminal act, or a civil matter (I think it was Civil rather than Criminal, but open to correction from any legal eagles out there).

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Originally posted by SÓC
Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.

The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.

If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.

It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.

We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.

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pains me to have to say this on a political thread SOC, but i agree with ya 100%

Slept thru most of this thread but dunno how anyone can support or fial to condemn the IRA while condemn the bombings Madrid today.

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Originally posted by pete
Slept thru most of this thread but dunno how anyone can support or fial to condemn the IRA while condemn the bombings Madrid today.

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Bit of a difference pete as regards warnings targets etc.

Though people who let foolish kids loose with explosives in crowded fish shops should be shot.

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Originally posted by TommyT
Bit of a difference pete as regards warnings targets etc.

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You mean like Warrington? Only difference is the scale....

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Originally posted by Macy
You mean like Warrington? Only difference is the scale....

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AFAIK there was a warning there wasn't there?

Re what Pete said, my comment on that was that if the IRA had stuck to military targets it would have ben a different story. Same goes for ETA. No matter how just your cause, attacking civilians is never on.

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Originally posted by Éanna
AFAIK there was a warning there wasn't there?

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AFAIK it was one of the clear as mud warnings.

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Originally posted by Macy
AFAIK it was one of the clear as mud warnings.

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fair enough. As i said, no matter how just the cause targetting civilians is cowardly and evil and any right-thinking person must condemn it.

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Originally posted by SÓC
Eoinh what you are forgetting is that the 1916 risings were not supported by the people. In fact they were spat at in Dublin after the rising.

The people of Ireland had no interest in a Republic. Home rule as part of the United Kingdom was the most they wanted.

If there was to be no rising there would have been no executions of the leaders and hence no public support.

It all revolves around idea of the time of the blood scarfice etc.

We'd have something akin to the Scottish Parliament or New Zeland. That cousin marrying German woman would be our head of state and our national flag would most likely be some sort of thing with a Union Jack throw in the corner.

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You might have that. But New Zealand is an independent country. For me a small sacrifice like that is worth it for a united independent country. BTW if we ever do have a unified 32 county ireland i doubt if our flag would be the same or our national anthem. it would have to be changed to reflect all traditions on this island - not one!
For the flag ild say it would revert to the traditional one of a harp on a blue background.

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Originally posted by Éanna
pains me to have to say this on a political thread SOC, but i agree with ya 100%

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The FF subscription forms are in the post.

Welcome to the Party Éanna.