Kevin Nolan anyone?

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29/09/2009, 2:07 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junior

I simply dont understand that sentiment at all.

Why would you 'love' to see a player playing for your country who simplt wants to play for his own country not yours.

International football shouldnt be about wanting the best (I use the term loosely in this instance) players by hook or by crook.

I think this point has been rehearsed by others, but identity and loyalty for 2nd G Irish is not always that straight forward. Nolan's preferred position was to play for England, from which some have deduced that he "doesn't want to play for us" or has "no affinity with Ireland." Actually niether of these propositions is necessarily true. He did clearly want to play for us when the matter was investigated under STan and it was established that he was not at that time eligible. I know (through work0 someone who grew up with Nolan and knows the family. According to him he is typical "Liverpool Irish." Irishness and Catholicism are very much part of the identity of some of the communities in North Liverpool / Bootle / Huyton. It does not mean that he is naturally drawn to represent us as his first choice (or that he wants to become Pope), but there is an affinity and I dont think that selecting Nolan would be a embracing a treacherous mercenary.
29/09/2009, 3:06 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

I think this point has been rehearsed by others, but identity and loyalty for 2nd G Irish is not always that straight forward. Nolan's preferred position was to play for England, from which some have deduced that he "doesn't want to play for us" or has "no affinity with Ireland." Actually niether of these propositions is necessarily true. He did clearly want to play for us when the matter was investigated under STan and it was established that he was not at that time eligible. I know (through work0 someone who grew up with Nolan and knows the family. According to him he is typical "Liverpool Irish." Irishness and Catholicism are very much part of the identity of some of the communities in North Liverpool / Bootle / Huyton. It does not mean that he is naturally drawn to represent us as his first choice (or that he wants to become Pope), but there is an affinity and I dont think that selecting Nolan would be a embracing a treacherous mercenary.

He showed no interest when his eligibility was looked into back in McCarthy's days, he subsequently showed no interest again during Stan's reign, he's not Irish, being Catholic has nothing to do with being Irish, your friend from work obviously loves winding you up and once again he doesn't add anything extra to what we already have.
29/09/2009, 3:10 PM
Junior

Fair enough response and I take on board your points on the Liverpool Irish factor - I dont know him or if he has any affinity with Ireland. Representing us in the Stan era was no doubt a fallback position though, no matter how you dress it up and that doesnt rest easy with me and that is coming from a 2g Irishman.
29/09/2009, 3:13 PM
tiktok

If he were to declare, fair enough.
I'm opposed to chasing anyone who hasn't stated quite clearly that they're Irish and want to play for Ireland.
29/09/2009, 3:27 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiktok

If he were to declare, fair enough.
I'm opposed to chasing anyone who hasn't stated quite clearly that they're Irish and want to play for Ireland.

You may be opposed to it and on principle you're probably right. However, if it wasn't for Jack Charlton hounding fellas like Houghton, etc. to play for their 2nd favourite country, we'd probably never have qualified for a major tournament, and I'm far more opposed to that.
29/09/2009, 3:31 PM
KK77

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

You may be opposed to it and on principle you're probably right. However, if it wasn't for Jack Charlton hounding fellas like Houghton, etc. to play for their 2nd favourite country, we'd probably never have qualified for a major tournament, and I'm far more opposed to that.

From listening to interviews Aldo and Houghton did not have to be hounded to play for us. From what i can remember Nolan was hounded and had no desire to play for us.
29/09/2009, 3:37 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafa B

From listening to interviews Aldo and Houghton did not have to be hounded to play for us. From what i can remember Nolan was hounded and had no desire to play for us.

Approached, hounded.....it's all in the wording really. Didn't Charlton go to watch Aldridge at Oxford and snapped up Houghton too while he was there? I'm not saying they weren't proud to play for Ireland or anything, just that a little bit of gentle persuasion didn't do us any harm.
29/09/2009, 4:05 PM
Leeside Swagger

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Approached, hounded.....it's all in the wording really. Didn't Charlton go to watch Aldridge at Oxford and snapped up Houghton too while he was there? I'm not saying they weren't proud to play for Ireland or anything, just that a little bit of gentle persuasion didn't do us any harm.

They played for Charlton because he was such a legend, they would have played for Jamacia if he had asked them. Re: Nolan I think he just doesnt want to play for us, there was a similar situation with Dave Kitson a few years back. I seem to remember that he was eligible but he stated that he wasnt Irish and he wouldnt feel right representing us, fair enough really.
29/09/2009, 4:06 PM
tiktok

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Approached, hounded.....it's all in the wording really. Didn't Charlton go to watch Aldridge at Oxford and snapped up Houghton too while he was there? I'm not saying they weren't proud to play for Ireland or anything, just that a little bit of gentle persuasion didn't do us any harm.

It did plenty of harm to our underage structure if you ask me.
I don't think it's too much to ask that the National Team is made up of players proud to be there rather than the best reject team we could cobble together.

Someone like Kitson mentioned above deserves more credit than Cascarino in my opinion.
29/09/2009, 4:13 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

He showed no interest when his eligibility was looked into back in McCarthy's days, he subsequently showed no interest again during Stan's reign, he's not Irish, being Catholic has nothing to do with being Irish, your friend from work obviously loves winding you up and once again he doesn't add anything extra to what we already have.

Read carefully. The link is not between being Irish and being Catholic, its about the culture of certain communities in North Liverpool. If Nolan did not have Irish connections then he would not be eligible, but he does and he is! Not really sure why you are getting so wound up over this, but you are wrong on two counts. During the Stan episode it was down to eligibility, the FAI would not have explored this issue had Nolan been willing to consider playing for us. Secondly, I trust my colleague and on all the available evidence he knows a great deal more about Nolan than you do.
29/09/2009, 4:22 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

Read carefully. The link is not between being Irish and being Catholic, its about the culture of certain communities in North Liverpool. If Nolan did not have Irish connections then he would not be eligible, but he does and he is! Not really sure why you are getting so wound up over this, but you are wrong on two counts. During the Stan episode it was down to eligibility, the FAI would not have explored this issue had Nolan been willing to consider playing for us. Secondly, I trust my colleague and on all the available evidence he knows a great deal more about Nolan than you do.

I don't know why you assume I'm getting wound up about this. You think it's worth considering Nolan (for the third time) - I don't. His eligbility was looked into under McCarthy's reign - he wasn't eligible then. His eligibility was looked into again under Stan's reign - Stan made it known he was interested in Nolan, Nolan made it know he wasn't interested in Ireland, it subsequently became known again he wasn't eligible. As you seem to have no konwledge of this, I'm doubtful to the assertion you have made in the last sentence of your post. BTW how big a Dutch community is there in Liverpool?
29/09/2009, 9:21 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

I don't know why you assume I'm getting wound up about this. You think it's worth considering Nolan (for the third time) - I don't. His eligbility was looked into under McCarthy's reign - he wasn't eligible then. His eligibility was looked into again under Stan's reign - Stan made it known he was interested in Nolan, Nolan made it know he wasn't interested in Ireland, it subsequently became known again he wasn't eligible. As you seem to have no konwledge of this, I'm doubtful to the assertion you have made in the last sentence of your post. BTW how big a Dutch community is there in Liverpool?

I would like to see evidence of Nolan's alleged "lack of interest" at the time of the Stan / FAI enquiry into eligibility. I would suspect that the Dutch community in Liverpool was slightly bigger than the Irish community in Gothenberg, and generally more civil as well.
29/09/2009, 11:45 PM
geysir

Are you totally naive or on a wind up?
The point is, he has not expressed any interest at all, he did not take advantage of that window like Jon Macken

In all the 25 years the Nolan thread has been running, the closest we got to reading something about 'Nolan talking about declaring for Ireland' was an article Stutts cunningly posted, which hooked the board for a couple of hours on April 1st.
30/09/2009, 7:53 AM
drummerboy

People are forgetting that Nolan was part of the Irish U18 squad under Brian Kerry. On the day of a game against England I think, he decided he did not want to represent the Republic of Ireland and asked to go home. I certainly don't hold it against him for wanting to represent the country of his birth but I think he made his decision then and the matter should have been closed then.
30/09/2009, 12:18 PM
as_i_say

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy

People are forgetting that Nolan was part of the Irish U18 squad under Brian Kerry. On the day of a game against England I think, he decided he did not want to represent the Republic of Ireland and asked to go home. I certainly don't hold it against him for wanting to represent the country of his birth but I think he made his decision then and the matter should have been closed then.

Never heard that one before! If thats the case then really its the same as dave kitson. its pretty obvious he has no interest in us and why would he if he considers himself English, and if he did drop out of our underage setup for that reason then its to his credit.

Clinton Morrisson on the other hand...:mad:
30/09/2009, 12:52 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerboy

People are forgetting that Nolan was part of the Irish U18 squad under Brian Kerry. On the day of a game against England I think, he decided he did not want to represent the Republic of Ireland and asked to go home. I certainly don't hold it against him for wanting to represent the country of his birth but I think he made his decision then and the matter should have been closed then.

did some research on this, he was called into the U18's under Kerr for a friendly VS Switerland
from http://www.kickinmagazine.ie/u18squad1392000.htm

Quote:

Bolton's Kevin Nolan, Manchester United's Paul Tierney and QPR's Brian Fitzgerald have been called up for the first time

but for some reason he didn't play, from http://www.kickinmagazine.ie/kevinnolan31102000.htm

Quote:

Brian Kerr called Nolan up for Ireland's friendly game against the Swiss u18 team at the end of September. But the player did not get a chance to shine on the pitch so his options are still open

also from that link Allardyce is quoted as saying

Quote:

I know the lad and his dad would prefer that he played for England and they are well aware of the situation
30/09/2009, 1:29 PM
drummerboy

AFAIK he asked not play and went back to his club.
30/09/2009, 1:56 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

did some research on this, he was called into the U18's under Kerr for a friendly VS Switerland
from http://www.kickinmagazine.ie/u18squad1392000.htm
but for some reason he didn't play, from http://www.kickinmagazine.ie/kevinnolan31102000.htm
also from that link Allardyce is quoted as saying

Allardyce has previous for pushing dual qualified kids towards England, he made Kilbane attend a youth or under 21's training camp while he was at Preston, Kilbane says he went along in his Ireland shirt. Players are worth more in England if there English internationals, no doubt about that. I wouldn't hold teh yout thing against Nolan, it's the fact that he had teh chance after that during the amnesty and didn't commit that I'd have an issue with.
30/09/2009, 2:16 PM
third policeman

I cant honestly remember what the terms of the initial amnesty were. I think it applied to players under the age of 21. I dont know whether he would have been covered by that amnesty or not, but it is the case that his eligibility was subsequently investigated by the FAI when Staunton was in charge and at that point he was not eligible. Dont think anyone has any doubts that for whatever reason (his father, Allardyce, his own sense of identity) his first preferance was England. In this sense he is probably not any different to Townsend, Aldridge, Robinson, Morrison etc etc. It is now the case that he is eligible, and unlikely to make it into the England setup (partly due to competition from other Irish qualified players like Noble and Milner). I just wonder whether our management has made any attempts to talk to Nolan and see whether he wishes to avail of his changed circumstances. I dont think we pay them to make value judgements about people's Irishness, their job is to improve the team and pick the best players.
30/09/2009, 2:34 PM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

I dont think we pay them to make value judgements about people's Irishness, their job is to improve the team and pick the best players.

The Football Association of Ireland

"The Football Association of Ireland is the governing body of football in Ireland. Our game is being developed and supported by the FAI and its associates; clubs, affiliates and leagues, in every townland, city street and community across Ireland, in line with our mission to foster, develop and promote football.

Our goal is to continue to increase participation in all sections of the community through our members, voluntary and executive, working with the many stakeholders who enjoy and support our sport."

No - nothing there about making "value judgements about people's Irishness".

Nothing there either about chasing Englishmen journeymen with Irish ancestry throughout their active playing careers until they get a yes.

You just need to accept that not everybody with a grain of Irish ancestry wants to play for Ireland. Let's focus on those that do, eh?
30/09/2009, 3:03 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

You just need to accept that not everybody with a grain of Irish ancestry wants to play for Ireland. Let's focus on those that do, eh?

Actually IFK I am not talking about "everybody with a grain of Irish ancestry" I am talking about one individual who once upon a time was actually a member of an Irish international squad, is now eligible to play for us and is better than most of our other central midfield options. I kind of get the point that you would not like to see him selected, and think that he would decline the offer in any case. That's an entirely valid opinion. Now learn to express it without questioning the intelligence, impuning the motivation or consistently misrepresenting those who might disagree with you.
30/09/2009, 3:31 PM
DeLorean

Well said TP, think you must have upset IFK in a past life or something:D or else Kevin Nolan did!!
30/09/2009, 6:12 PM
youngirish

Does anybody else think it's a bit sad that people are desperate to chase run of the mill English footballers to represent our proud and great nation?

Footballers who were never good enough to represent their home country and who have refused opportunites to represent us in the past?

I personally would much rather see us not qualifying for major tournaments than have 11 english players on the pitch in such tournaments with little or no affinity to Ireland.

It makes a laughing stock of our team on the international stage when it's full of England B players.
30/09/2009, 6:59 PM
Colbert Report

Close this thread please.
30/09/2009, 7:43 PM
Paddy Garcia

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiktok

It did plenty of harm to our underage structure if you ask me.
I don't think it's too much to ask that the National Team is made up of players proud to be there rather than the best reject team we could cobble together.

Someone like Kitson mentioned above deserves more credit than Cascarino in my opinion.

Interesting - but I don't think this is right. I think that team , and the success they secured, inspired at least one generation. And I believe they were all proud to pull on a green jersey- unlike some of our current home grown crop(see other very long thread - S Ireland).

If you want to take a look at what has harmed our underage structure - you could start with the - home grown & proud - manager of our U21's
30/09/2009, 7:45 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Close this thread please.

If you don't like the coffee....stay out of Starbucks
30/09/2009, 9:37 PM
tetsujin1979

DeLorean, it's been done to death, on more than one occasion, I'd be in favour of locking the thread unless Nolan indicates that he wants to play for Ireland
30/09/2009, 10:15 PM
boovidge

Nothing new has been said and I doubt he will ever represent us but the fact remains that he is as available for selection as Robbie Keane or Richard Dunne and therefore a thread concerning him is entirely reasonable imo.
30/09/2009, 10:31 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

DeLorean, it's been done to death, on more than one occasion, I'd be in favour of locking the thread unless Nolan indicates that he wants to play for Ireland

There are so many threads that I don't bother with, as I know by the title I have no interest. Fair enough, Kevin Nolan and Ireland isn't really a hot topic at the moment, but with the recent change to the international player rulings and the form of Nolan, I don't think it's that unreasonable that somebody would want to discuss it further. Even if I did, I would probably stay clear of the debate, not call for everybody to shut up about it.
30/09/2009, 10:43 PM
Acornvilla

well im available for selection too i want a thread!!
01/10/2009, 6:42 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

.... who once upon a time was actually a member of an Irish international squad

You were not aware of this until tetsujin1979 posted his research into the matter and contrary to what you are suggesting, it once again highlights that Nolan doesn't want to play for Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

and is better than most of our other central midfield options.

"our" ;). I think we have at least 6 players that are better than Nolan (arguably more) and all 6 want to play for Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

Now learn to express it without questioning the intelligence, impuning the motivation or consistently misrepresenting those who might disagree with you.

My apologies Third Policeman. But it's quite simple; he's doesn't bring anything extra to the squad and, most importantly, he doesn't want to play for Ireland. He has had approximately a decade to demonstrate some interest in playing - which he has not. I don't need to question your intelligence, your motivation or misrepresent you as your continued posting on this matter demonstrate you are more than capable of doing that yourself.
01/10/2009, 10:44 AM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

You were not aware of this until tetsujin1979 posted his research into the matter and contrary to what you are suggesting, it once again highlights that Nolan doesn't want to play for Ireland.

"our" ;). I think we have at least 6 players that are better than Nolan (arguably more) and all 6 want to play for Ireland.

My apologies Third Policeman. But it's quite simple; he's doesn't bring anything extra to the squad and, most importantly, he doesn't want to play for Ireland. He has had approximately a decade to demonstrate some interest in playing - which he has not. I don't need to question your intelligence, your motivation or misrepresent you as your continued posting on this matter demonstrate you are more than capable of doing that yourself.

Actually I was aware of Nolan's involvement in a previous Irish squad. I think you are confusing what I know with what you dont know.

Disregarding the ironic emphasis on the word "our" which I assume is another questioning of my "true loyalty to the cause". I would love to know who these six superior players actually are. You might also want to let Trapp know, because he evidently is not picking them.

And finally, I suggest you look up the meaning of the word apologise before you use it next time. As far as I can recollect it does not mean the futile repetition of the original slur.

I think our exchange on the issue of Nolan has run its course. If you want to pursue this spat can I suggest we find another channel that does not subject the readers of this forum to such inane point scoring.
01/10/2009, 10:49 AM
irishfan86

Nolan is a better player than any of our central options apart from S. Reid, and even that is debatable.

He was the key player that helped Bolton qualify for Europe under Allardyce, and has the ability to be a match winner.

Whelan, Andrews, Miller, and Gibson lack this ability to make an impact on games that Nolan has.

The issue is that he doesn't seem to feel Irish, and that's fair enough. But to claim that Whelan or Andrews are better players than Nolan is rubbish.

Nolan performed poorly due to injuries last year, but now that he is fully fit, his class is showing in the Championship.
01/10/2009, 11:19 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

I think you are confusing what I know with what you dont know.

It's already been established that you know what your mate at work tells you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

As far as I can recollect it does not mean the futile repetition of the original slur.

:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

I think our exchange on the issue of Nolan has run its course.

That's one thing I can agree with you on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

If you want to pursue this spat can I suggest we find another channel

Just use the ignore list option, thanks. :D

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