You really are pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umberside
Sorry now, we'll let ye qualify next time if a situation like this comes up again. Grow up. :rolleyes:
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You really are pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umberside
Sorry now, we'll let ye qualify next time if a situation like this comes up again. Grow up. :rolleyes:
Just wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
The very fact that 50 years ago LoI grounds were regularly getting 20,000 at games pays testament to the fact that your wrong.
If the LoI managed it before we can certainly do it again without buying into that franchise mickey mouse EPL you have invisiged for us all.
Sorry but its not our problem, we attend games week in week out, if you want a solution get the barstoolers off their lager arses and go see a live game.Quote:
The successful paradigm already exists in the shape of Rugby's Celtic League. The SPL has its own problems, the Irish League is in a worse state than the EL and the best that Cardiff and Swansea can hope for in England is yo-yo status between the top two (or occasionally three) divisions. Of course there are huge challenges, and the delicate issue of mergers and new club structures would need to be grasped, but unless we think outside the box club football in the Celtic nations can only go in one direction. There is a huge potential support for "serious" club football in Ireland, but if you want kids in this country to transfer their allegiance fom the likes of Man Utd, Celtic and Liverpool, you have got to offer them an attractive, quality alternative taking part in a competition that has some status, and playing in stadia that are only one step up from school playing fields.
To be suggesting that we bend over backwards and see the disolution of our clubs and history for the appeasment of some barstooler for his bi-annual visit to a domestic football ground well you know where you can go.
The responisbility lies with those in Ireland who follow foreign teams not with those who follow their local teams and domestic league.
Define success.Quote:
As I have said before, football is the last economic sector where it is is necessary for Irish people to emigrate in order to succeed.
Really couldnt give a toss about our national team, its just been hyjacked by the event junkey barstoolers, its why Landsdowne is a joke.Quote:
We are producing and exporting more players to Uk clubs than ever before and at present all too few of them realise their potential at either club or international level. If Irish clubs generated enough revenue to attract and keep more of our best players in Ireland, it would inevitably assist our international team as well, but this really does require very radical thinking.
In comparison to the atmosphere teams had to enjure in Dalymount 40 years ago theres no comparison, but thats barstoolers for you.
Not really, its a question of whether barstoolers will follow their local team and be football supporters or continue to be the loyal Sky consumers that they are.Quote:
Transnational league and cup structures will inevitably happen, its a question of whether we want to be a part of it or remain one of Europe's most impoverished footballing backwaters.
This is not something to be laid at our door, as I said before the majority of LoI fans go over and above the required so maybe its time for the prawn sandwich brigade to shoulder a bit of responsibility.
But thats not really going to happen is it, one of lifes uncomfortable truths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Real Rover
And of course all facets of life are just as they were 50 years ago :rolleyes:
I know I've bene out of the country for a few years but it's a shame the way things have just fallen apart, RTE no longer exists, Fianna Fail are running the country like a milatary Dictatorship, and all the while it's the Catholic Church who are really running the show..... hmm now that you mention it, you might be on to something....
Of course there are huge challenges, and the delicate issue of mergers and new club structures would need to be grasped, but unless we think outside the box club football in the Celtic nations can only go in one direction.
I think it's a bit too simplistic to say "look at rugby they are doing well lets change to a provincial set up" You have to remember that Irish provincial teams have been around for years and professional rugby is still a new product in world sport and as such could set up competitions that suited them. It would be a lot harder for the Celtic nations to set up a football league with UEFA FIFA FAW SFA FAI IFA all having to be in agreement and I can't really see that happening. I cant see provincial teams getting the suppoort either. If you look at the impact of Super 14 rugby on New Zealand you might not agree that it's a cure for all ills.
I do agree that radical thinking is needed but the proposal you put forward I think would face too many barriers.
Em... just a random thought:Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Real Rover
You know how if you wanna get tickets to, for example, Tipperary vs Kilkenny in the All Ireland this year, you would most likely need to go to your local GAA club?
I know the FAI would never go for it, but if International Tickets were available through local LOI clubs... surely that'd be an incentive?
My vision is as follows:
A 16 or 18 Team all Ireland league, play each other twice. Fair enough there'd be a quality gulf between top and bottom, but what league doesn't have that, and I firmly believe that the Athlone's of this world need to be playing bigger clubs week in week out to progress on and off the park.
Stadia with propper terracing ala Germany for those fans who want to stand and generate atmos. BYOB. Family sections as far away from these areas as possible.
End stupid fines that clubs can't afford, turn a blind eye to smokes and flares.
Get rid of the majority of stewards. There's too many. Atmos sections to be self policing. No Garda inside grounds.
FAI/IFA regional acadamies with a draft system into the league.
I just never understood why there can't be a massive push at getting the League into the publics imagination.
Is this coming from the media or something? Sometimes I get the impression that they actually think the English League is our league.
I just found out today that a few lads from my old school have taken Shamrock Rovers as their LOI club, I was shocked to hear this but it proves if you make a deal of the league and the clubs in it then people will support them.
All-Ireland League has to happen!!!!!
Link to where I stated that?Quote:
Originally Posted by endabob1
As for the rest, funny stuff......
http://www.nimblebread.co.uk/_client...wich_prawn.jpg
I would love to see more grounds in the LOI full for matches.
The amount of empty seats in a LOI ground on matchday is shocking to be honest .
I don't care bout the number of teams in the premier division, I don't care whether matches are played on Fridays, Saturdays, or at 4.30 AM on Tuesday mornings, and I don't care if we have an occasional away trip to Linfield or Portadown.
All I care about is getting people through turnstiles. It we do that, the rest will come eventually. More people will inevitably lead to more money, more money will lead to more success.
As for an international, provincial system, my feelings are summed up in this post I made on elevenaside.com:
Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Two good points in my opinion. Why are clubs like Finn Harps building all seater stadiums? Why this big move to all seater stadia? It cant be for European games as there are only about 3 home games a year for clubs that do well and there really isnt going to be a problem of crowd trouble. They manage it in Germany pretty well. IMO in the LOI it should be all terraces behind the goals. It makes for a better atmosphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
And fines for clubs whos fans let off flares and smoke is a joke. If its done by responsible people in a controlled manner it can be great. We are not idiots for god sake.
My feeling is that the powers that be see the "success" (superficial ad that may be for the majority of clubs) of the Premiership and are trying to emulate it. The thing is though that what they are really trying to do is provide an inferior version of something Irish people already have ready access to - sanitised corporatised sport. If we want to succeed we need to follow a different model and provide the public with a different type of product to what is on offer accross the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by northwestexile
You maybe right, but Rugby had some very big barriers to overcome as well. Not least the very idea of professionalism. Financial and media imperatives will force football to change and FIFA, UEFA and the domestic FA's will adapt in order to keep club soccer in existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by northwestexile
On a broader note I am puzzled by some of the sentiments on this thread. It seems that some people accept that the EL is facing dire commercial threats but dont really want anything to change. There is a simple reason why you wont get 20k people attending LoI games notwithstanding the profound cultural and social changes that have taken place, and that's becuase most of the stadia cannot physically acoomodate these numbers. And what is the point of disparaging and abusing so-called "bar stoolers?" If you dont want people who are not currently LoI supporters sullying the integrity of this league then stop complaining. Surely the declining attendances, the exodus of playing talent and the failure to improve standards should all be encouraged as a means of keeping unwanted elements away!
Here it is again as you obviously missed it the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Real Rover
You're saying that because the LOI was able to get 20,000 (I really would like some hard evidence on this as opposed to rose-tinted anecdotal evidence) 50 years ago when life was very very different, no television, limited Radio, limited transport, no sex before marriage, less disposable income, no access to internet porn etc, etc, etc it makes it feasible today & you think that's a strong argument.
This is not true. We want lots of things to change, but we disagree about how to best effect this change. Some people, including myself, think that an AIL will not address any of the core problems of football in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
The simple reason why we don't get 20,000 at games is because not enough people are interested in domestic football. The number of occasions where fans have been turned away due to attendance having reached capacity is virtually nil. And the situation would remain the same even in an AIL in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
The fact remains that even in an AIL, most of the games will be in the same grounds against the same teams as now. The fact that most clubs are tightening their belts and some are talking about part-time football seems to indicate (to me at least) that we are not going to see any great improvement in the standard of football. So what reason is there to believe that more people will go to watch (for example) Bohs versus Derry, or Cork versus St. Pats, than currently go?
People talk about increased attendances but apart from Linfield, I don't think any of the IL teams would attract any more spectators than we currently get.
Also, increased TV money is often mentioned, but who will pay to cover the AIL? Considering RTE don't want to cover the LOI, and the BBC provides little more than minimal coverage of the IL, I'm not sure that an amalgamation of the two will suddenly have channels vying to cover it.
I'd actually like to see an AIL, but I think that without some serious measures taken to force clubs to be more sensible in their approach to spending, any AIL would have the same problems that the LOI does at the moment (can't really say I know that much about the IL).
Agreed. I've been saying this for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
I don't think PineappleStu's attendance thread goes back 50 years (just checked, it doesn't), Jim Murphy's History of DFC cites crowds of between 4000-8000 for league matches in Oriel during the 60s, but crowds of over 20,000 were the norm for end of season deciders, cup finals and big European games. For example, 23,000 went to see Dundalk play Zurich in the European Cup in 1963 and a crowd of 24,000 turned out to see Waterford play Rovers in Milltown in 1966. Both figures are substantiated by gate receipts.Quote:
Originally Posted by endabob1
As far as I know the pre 1980s records are mostly based on gate receipts - in Miltown the estimated numbers apparently often exceeded the gate. In Kilcohan, huge crowds were the norm for games with Rovers, and end of season clashes. From what I can glean from talking to fans from the era, the average numbers, while better than anything we have had in the RSC I suspect, were generally down dramatically - by half and more - for games against the more mundane opposition.
So would you describe these attendances as "regular"? I think there is a lot of misty eyed romanticism for the golden era where the locals merrily skipped along to Miltown, Dalymount, St Mels on a Sunday afternoon to watch their local heroes in action.Quote:
Originally Posted by eelmonster
My point was that like it or not there are far more distractions now plus in terms of live support Rugby & GAA have undoubtedly stolen a march on domestic football but even in the golden era the games you cite (and I have no reason to doubt their accuracy) these big numbers are one off's.
There are lots of more recent examples of big crowds Derry City were pulling close to 10,000 (from memory) when they joined the league, Cobh's Cup run in the mid 80's pulled in crowds in excess of 10,000 (again from memory) but the point is these are not regular or in Derry's sustained beyond the novelty value of the new beginning (a fact Rovers would do well to keep in mind I think).
That depends on how the word is applied. There were regularly crowds in excess of 20,000 at cup finals, European matches and so on, between the 1920s and 1970s (almost every season). You doubted that the League of Ireland attracted those numbers, I was simply offering you the 'hard evidence' sought. The quotidian weekly (ha) attendances were, in Dundalk's, case (going on Jim Murphy's figures alone) in the range of between 2000 and 8000, depending on who the club was playing and how successful a season the club were having: there was a crowd of 4000 for the first Louth derby at Oriel in the 1963; 7500 people paid in to see Rovers (they were only there for the Rovers ;) -- just to contextualise that figure, it was the 8th league game of the 63/64 season, oh, and Dundalk won). That there are greater distractions now is obvious, but Rovers have proven that if you market the product correctly and have (use of [only joking]) the facilities, more people will go to watch their local LoI team play.Quote:
Originally Posted by endabob1
my vision.
Simple. A league with consequences for fuucking up. This idea of operating over the 65% cap throughout the season but ending up under the cap at the end is pure arse.
Where if you do fuuck up, you get a rake of points taken away instead of fines. Keep the money in the clubs.
The fai told me that the referee weekly review and courses started nine years ago. How come there has been no significant improvement the past nine years - refs from outside dub.
The childer support there own teams from there own area.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.T.F.C.
A little leeway should be allowed for, of course (e.g. you can stray to just under 70% at times, as long as it's not for extended periods and as long as you end the season under 65%), but Bohemians should be penalised if the only way they stay under 65% is by winning the title. Such gambling only puts the club in peril. I'd rather support a mid-table Premier Division club than Title-Contenders that may not be around next season.
True. I mean the answer to clubs not living within their means isn't to restrict their means even further. It's to strip them of the glory they attained by such extravagant spending.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.T.F.C.
Well there's three ways of doing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.T.F.C.
1. Media. Apart from local newspapers, which children don't read, the league isn't getting coverage. And of course, the worst part of this would be a country of Bohs/Rovers fans... the culture of glory-hunters we're breeding now will follow the leading teams if the national broadcaster is the only source of LOI they get.
2. The Parents. Again, not likely. Because the fathers to a large extent will raise their children as a Liverpool/United fan, or as a Premier League fan, and they'll end up seeing too much of it in their youth, being drawn into the glitz and glamour of it...
3. The Schools. I think this could be where the money lies. If the local side went around, during the off-season (as the new season nears) and did a skills course with the students of Primary Schools, handed out hats, scarves.. one of two jerseys in a raffle... it could stir up some interest, get the kids acquainted with the players... and (hopefully) get the classmates of the jersey-winners to be a wee bit jealous and get the parents to buy one :p
Easy there, tiger - that's a whole lot too radical for most of our clubs. I'd imagine if you spoke to many high ranking club officials, you would get a half hour of rhetoric, which when translated converts to "Do you expect turkeys to vote for Christmas.Quote:
Originally Posted by L.T.F.C.
If it was in the US, people would be screaming that this is Communism.
Bring on the Communist Revolution, I say.
This is a great idea. I'm ashamed to say that in my misguided younger days, I dabbled with supporting Pat's, after a few of their players came to a football camp I was at. As far as I was concerned, they were all Roberto Baggio. Some of the lads from that year still have a soft spot for them, despite absolutely no follow-up from the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ped_ped
Facilities have got to improve, increased seating for all fans, covered too, proper catering and other facilities. Better stewarding, all of this would encourage a lot of families to games, a lot of clubs in Lge 2 (old div 4) in UK are pitching for the family scene, and they have made great inroads here, by proper marketting and remember they are right next door to Eng Prem lge teams. If they can do it, why cant we ?
I think we are playing far too many games too, 18 home league games is not far off from the English sides are playing, it can be quite difficult to keep fans interested for so many matches, esp if your team drops off the pace, when you consider your avg GAA fan will attend no more 10 big games a season, we really have our work cut out to keep fans motivated to attend games.
Media too can play their part, aertel being a prime example , they had a page last night on a player I never heard of, who could be match fit this w/e, turns out he plays with WBA and is in the NI squad...........so what ?
The FAI cup final is/has been shamefully downgraded for over a decade now by our media, these are all prime examples where we have lost focus. The mornign of the game, we would be lucky to see a half page article in either the Sun Indo or Tribune.
MNS is excellent, but we need more of this.
Paul Collins on Today Fm the other am informs us that in the EIRCOM* lge, Sligo beat Bohs and so on, its the little things like these that HAVE to change before the message gets through that we are a serious league, well the fans are at least. To be fair Collins is not the worst and always plugs the lge, we just need to tidy up how its presented, they would never make a mistake with anything happening in th english lges.
* Sean Connor and Paul Doolin also made ref to this on MNS
My vision involves closing my eyes and rocking back and forth.
As did the PA announcer at the EIRCOM LEAGUE match between St Patricks Athletic and Dundalk UNITED in Richmond Park!Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
Mirriam O Callaghan also had a cracker on prime time on that 15 min slaughter on Shels a few yrs back, said something like 'and now to problems within the Irish Lge'
Superb..........she didn`t give one fxxx about us.
The only exception you can make in LOI/Ir Lg mix ups is from media in the UK, who really cant be blamed for not knowing which is which.
Then again, the Irish lge itself is now renamed to 'the Carling Permiership'
I think.........even I`m confused :confused:
All these name changes !
As this BBC report shows, the league's name is the 'Auto Windshield Windscreen Wiper Fluid Irish League Division One' (or the AWWFILDO).Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kN15...rom=PL&index=6
:D This was the exact same thing with Bray Wanderers. They came to my school with the FAI Cup in 99' and the whole school was delighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
I thought the same thing, Colm Tresson might as well have been Franco Baresi for all we knew.
An all-new reason for an All Ireland League ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by oriel
But again, do RTE have a mandate to commission Prime Time reports on the League of Ireland? Surely the cost of commission wasn't too far off actually covering a fcuking match.
I think we should just go with the flow and enjoy the last ten years of our existence before the European Super Priemer League 1, 2 and 3 wipe out all domestic support for the clubs left behind.
I predict that Europe will have roughly 60 clubs left by the year 2030
I think that's a little drastic. People in England will always support Rotherham, Plymouth and Colchester, because that's the way footballing culture generally works over there. Most of the footballing public over there would sooner feed their testicles through a mangle than support Manchester United or Chelsea in a European Super League.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Also, you'll find that the people supporting such a league will only want success. They're perfectly happy to support Liverpool now, when they're constantly in the top two or three domestically, and winning cups, but when they're mid-table in the EuPL, and failing to win half their games, watch the bandwagon screech to a halt and burst into flames as people desperately try to attach themselves to Barcelona, or Inter Milan. It makes more sense for clubs to stay big fish in relatively small ponds than risk losing the allure of constant and guaranteed success
But doesn't the above quote, which paints English fans as true, die-hard fans who support their team through thick and (usually) thin disagree with the quote below, which says that the fans will drop an unsuccessful team for a successful team?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
I know you mention the second case as happening in a European Super League of some sort, but the Premier League must currently hold the same appeal for mediocrity-weary Rotherham and Colchester fans as a Super League would hold for Liverpool or Arsenal fans?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
why would one change club when the other wouldn't?
Because Rotherham, Colchester and Plymouth fans are "proper" fans, whereas Liverpool fans are bandwagon event junkies who derive a lot of their support from miles away from the locality.
(Obviously there's "proper" Liverpool fans too, but they're in the minority unfortunately)
What Stu said!Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
There will always be a lot of hard-core supporters who will follow their team no matter what, but the European Super League would be looking at making money from glory-hunting markets, like South-East Asia, Africa, and Ireland! Finishing mid-table isn't going to break those markets, but winning your domestic league or cup regularly is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But is it not fair to say that the reason that Liverpool (for example) have always been more successful than a club like Rotherham is because the number of "hardcore, proper" fans is greater than that of Rotherham?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
It is. But it's also fair to say that there's a lot of barstoolers who follow Liverpool (this country, for example) who may fade away if Liverpool end up in mid-table obscurity in a superleague, which would hit the club significantly in terms of merchandise and branding sales.
So we're both right.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We can only hope so.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Lads, if you want a vision for the league, why not simply pay more attention to one that is already up and running. That's if a 6,000 sell-out attendance meets one of your criteria for success.
http://www.shamrockrovers.ie/news/35...ckets-on-sale-
Ah, but what about the thousands of season ticket holders that are counted in these figures, in spite of not actually being there? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by fergalr
(It just felt weird having a post about a Shamrock Rovers attendance without someone saying that. And you don't own your stadium. Shame on you!)