4 Jackeens and a Racist

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Originally posted by Peadar
When you've all finished basking in the glory you derive from public proclaimation of your anti racist stance.... I believe the immigration rules are justified and offer a fair deal to genuine applicants. You can call me a racist/facist all you like, it doesn't bother me.

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that's just moving the goalposts Peadar. I'm sure most people would agree that we need rules in place to protect the genuine asylum seekers and immigrants, and exclude the chancers, but that's not the point you made that people took issue with.

anyway, immigration has nothing to do with player registration.

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Watch this space. The Taoiseach, Minister for Justice and the FG leader all told us to expect a few SF heads to roll soon if the Gardaí do crack down on Provisional IRA "activities".

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Well McDowell, especially, seems to be a master of innuendo. If he has the information as he says he has, he should publish it immediately for us all to see. I have no time whatsoever for SF, but I don't hold with McDowells mudflinging, which he rarely, if ever, backs up.

My, we are busy with the Humanities and Politics topics these days, aren't we? This is good. However there's an unwritten rule about these kind of debates on Foot.ie: Provide evidence or shut up. Peadar, I hate to pick on one particular poster but you're the one making contentious statements here: If you can prove that Africans are responsible for a large proportion of crime in Ireland, state facts and figures please. If you don't know them, the Department of Justice will be able to help you out.

Until then, no more statements like "[t]he biggest ATM and credit card frauds scams in this country recently have been organised by African nationals" and "[j]ust look at all the crime being commited in Ireland by people originally from African nations." If you don't provide facts and figures I'll simply consider it uninformed implicitly racist Sun or Star rhetoric playing to the lowest common denominator. Clear?

adam

So Eanna and Conor have been promoted to jackeens now. Congrats to both.

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Originally posted by Conor74
No probs.

Eanna's already bought the miniskirt and a map of Benburb Street and I have a belt, a spoon, a lighter and an old syringe we used to use for mastitis in the cattle lying around somewhere...;) :D

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SO its alright to generalise one group but not another. Tut tut Conor :p :D

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Originally posted by Conor74
The vanity of comparing Dubs to Africans. You lot think you're a separate race and continent too, I suppose! :D :D

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We may as well be...

If Michael McDowell was to publish any information he had into Sinn Fein's illegal activities it wouldn't exactly help with any criminal investigation into the matters. As is the same with any Garda investigation any such information is kept hush hush until the investigation is finished.

Africans are involved in a lot of crime, mainly fraud and sex offences but so too are Eastern Europeans. However it's wrong to say that they are involved in the majority of it. Us Irish are well enough represented in these crimes too.

The major difference between someone who's Irish committing these crimes and someone from Africa or Eastern Europe committing them is that the majority of Africans and Eastern Europeans in this country are here illegally!!!

The immigration laws in this country are not too strict, if anything they are not tight enough. The numbers of Gardai working within the Garda National Immigration Bureau have been increased in the last month and are due to be increased again in the near furute. If we can stop these problems at the point of entry then we can reduce the numbers of them that are involved in crime here and in the long run hopefully that will help the people of Ireland to accept people of different races

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Originally posted by Eric
If Michael McDowell was to publish any information he had into Sinn Fein's illegal activities it wouldn't exactly help with any criminal investigation into the matters. As is the same with any Garda investigation any such information is kept hush hush until the investigation is finished.

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If thats the case, he should never have alluded to it in the first place.
When it suits him, he can clam up, and say nothing except "I couldn't possibly comment on an ongoing Garda investigation". However, he did not choose to say this, and it didn't stop him from prejudging the outcome of any investigation by deciding that SF are guilty of this, and publicly stating so.

Don't get me wrong Patsh, I'm not standing by McDowell one bit. I agree with you that he should never have even mentioned the matter. He's not exactly the brightest Minister for Justice we've ever had.

The only reason I mentioned that was because others were saying that information re crime caused by foreign nationals should be made known to the public and I was trying to show that it would ruin every criminal investigation if all the information was to be made known before the cases were dealt with

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Originally posted by Eric
He's not exactly the brightest Minister for Justice we've ever had.

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I'd've said the opposite. He's too clever by half.

adam

McDowell is dangerous. If he has proof that Sinn Féin are up to no good let him show it, otherwise he should stop casting allegations and not backing them up.

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Originally posted by Eric
Don't get me wrong Patsh, I'm not standing by McDowell one bit. I agree with you that he should never have even mentioned the matter. He's not exactly the brightest Minister for Justice we've ever had.

The only reason I mentioned that was because others were saying that information re crime caused by foreign nationals should be made known to the public and I was trying to show that it would ruin every criminal investigation if all the information was to be made known before the cases were dealt with

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Fair point, Eric. McDowell is too much of a barrister. He cannot conduct any kind of debate or even interview without trying to cast some negative aspersion on someone. The sooner him and his disgusting party are washed from the face of the earth the better.

I have no time at all for SF, but I don't believe McDowell, and Ahern to a lesser extent, should be allowed to fling allegations around like that. He certainly wouldn't make allegations of a serious nature against any other party and get away with it.
As I said in an earlier post, I feel section 31 gave SF a chance, and they grabbed it with open arms and worked really hard. My only regret is that it was that bloody unionist who was nominally a Labour minister, who gave them that chance.
SF have a mandate, as they endlessly tell us, so they are entitled to their seats. I dare say they will soon have a much bigger mandate than that of McDowell and his ilk.

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Originally posted by Vetinari
Until then, no more statements like "[t]he biggest ATM and credit card frauds scams in this country recently have been organised by African nationals" and "[j]ust look at all the crime being commited in Ireland by people originally from African nations." If you don't provide facts and figures I'll simply consider it uninformed implicitly racist Sun or Star rhetoric playing to the lowest common denominator.

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Methinks there were at least two big ATM fraud stories in the papers fairly recently (and I don't read the toilet papers), one of them only last week. Both involved, as far as I remember, Nigerians.

That doesn't prove either of those statements, and the suggestion that it does is frankly the response I'd expect from a Star reader. A couple of stories plucked from the newspapers - any newspapers - does not constitute proof. However if you can bring me statistics gathered over a reasonable period of time from a reliable source proving that $n ethic group is committing more crime than Irish nationals, or even started a relatively large crimewave, you can have the thread all to yourself. Does anyone else think that this is an unfair requirement?

adam

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Originally posted by Conor74
Isn't everyone forgetting, or at least not crediting, the role SF have played in the peace process. It's easy to knock it, but it's a lot better than the days when fellows saw lying out in the back of a Mazda with a hole cut into the boot and a rifle looking for a target around South Armagh as an admirable way to pass the day.

There may be serious question marks over SF, but they seem to be snowballing as a party if what I've heard about their memberships at Third Level institution is correct. And we must remember that the founding fathers of our three largest parties were not adverse to taking up a gun to pursue their ideals, and breaking the law came as second nature to them. I'm not defending SF's activities at all, I'm just saying that we shouldn't lionise the mainstream parties and airbrush their histories and pretend that SF are unique.

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As regards to Ógra Shinn Féin, (which they spell wrong 50% of the time :rolleyes: ) their crest is a youth throwing a petrol bomb. Says it all really.

What you say about the history of parties is correct but they were different days.

What about the present Conor? Do FF/FG/Lab still have wepons and a private army?

I think its amazing how lightly SF get off. Could you imagne a SF Minister for Justice?!

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
What about the present Conor? Do FF/FG/Lab still have wepons and a private army?

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So it was grand to have links to an army 80 odd years ago, but now it's totally wrong? Keeping in mind that currently the IRA is on ceasefire while the IRA wasn't back then. The IRA gained independence for the 26 counties, with the support of those who went on to form the current largest parties in the Dáil. A lot of people easily forget that when it comes to talking about the IRA.

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc I think its amazing how lightly SF get off. Could you imagne a SF Minister for Justice?!

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Amazing how lightly SF get off? Why, what do you propose should happen to SF? What do they 'get off' exactly? As for a SF minister of justice, what would be the problem? As proven by SF ministers in the northern Assembly, they're quite capable people and well able to hold ministerial office.
You've thrown about a few non-sensical statements, maybe you'd like to explain them? You views seems to echo those of the likes of Donaldson, I'm sure you'd feel right at the home in the DUP.

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Originally posted by Conor74
There may be serious question marks over SF, but they seem to be snowballing as a party if what I've heard about their memberships at Third Level institution is correct. And we must remember that the founding fathers of our three largest parties were not adverse to taking up a gun to pursue their ideals, and breaking the law came as second nature to them. I'm not defending SF's activities at all, I'm just saying that we shouldn't lionise the mainstream parties and airbrush their histories and pretend that SF are unique.

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So will FF go into coalition with them? You're in danger of not sticking to the party line - not while they have a private army, but it's okay for unionist to power share with them....

Agree with the airbrushing of history thing, although part of the problem is that politics over here still dates back to the civil war. One major party even brands itself as the Republican Party FFS. Can it not be dropped at this stage?

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Originally posted by brendy_eire
So it was grand to have links to an army 80 odd years ago, but now it's totally wrong? Keeping in mind that currently the IRA is on ceasefire while the IRA wasn't back then. The IRA gained independence for the 26 counties, with the support of those who went on to form the current largest parties in the Dáil. A lot of people easily forget that when it comes to talking about the IRA.

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Different times, different situation. early C20th democracy was being ignored. Today it is not. If the people of Northern Ireland wanted a united Ireland they could have it tomorrow.

Back then the majority of the people in question were subject to British rule against their will. Today in Northern Ireland the majoirty of people are subject to British rule simply because it is their will. Of course that doesnt excuse what went on but in modern Ireland that is the reality.

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Amazing how lightly SF get off? Why, what do you propose should happen to SF? What do they 'get off' exactly? As for a SF minister of justice, what would be the problem? As proven by SF ministers in the northern Assembly, they're quite capable people and well able to hold ministerial office.
You've thrown about a few non-sensical statements, maybe you'd like to explain them? You views seems to echo those of the likes of Donaldson, I'm sure you'd feel right at the home in the DUP.

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If you have a private army behind you you should not be allowed into government, doesnt matter if you are green, orange, black white or purple for all I care. I would include the DUP in this, especially with Big Ian's links to Loyalist.

As for your DUP comment:rolleyes:
Grow up. Typical Sinn Féin line, if someone doesnt agree with a SF policy they must be Unionists:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Conor74
The next election is a long way off. I could easily see FF and Sinn Fein forming a coalition if the numbers stack up. I don't think they will though. In fact, I think the ONLY government that will be possible after the next election will be FF/Labour, after that it's just a question of whether FF will cede enough to make coalition palatable.

The Republican Party was demoted a few years back but I see it being used again, presumably because of some backlash. Technically, I suppose it should read The Second Most Republican Party...;)

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I honestly would revoke my membership if FF got into Government with SF. Labour/FF worked well before the Whehlahan thing. Rabbit would have a hard time coming round.

As for the Republician Party. FF stands for the re-uniting of Ireland through the ballet box but no armalite in the other hand;)

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
As for the Republician Party. FF stands for the re-uniting of Ireland through the ballet box but no armalite in the other hand;)

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I note the ;) , but I still think you should add "anymore" to the end of that....

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Originally posted by dahamsta
That doesn't prove either of those statements, and the suggestion that it does is frankly the response I'd expect from a Star reader.

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I hate to be petty but I read the Star. It's by far the best daily in Ireland and is the only National paper that consistently challenges the government, especially the excellent Terry McGeehan. And it's National League coverage is second to none.

Better than reading the Irish Times which is only concerned with liberal middle class issues like Carrickmines Castle or where to buy lemongrass in Ranelagh. And to be fair to the Star it hasn't ever been racist or xenophobic to my knowledge. As for the Evening Herald.....

KOH

To be fair, I haven't read the Star in a few years, matter of fact I rarely read newspapers at all these days, except online. All I can say is that back when I did read a newspaper regularly, the Star was worse only to the Sun. Even the Sport was an improvement, what with the decent T&A an' all. :)

BTW, I'm not an IT reader, for the simple reason that they charge for their content online and don't consider it worth it. This is what I read, so if you want to pigeonhole me in revenge for my horrendous statement, at least pigeonhole me as a geek!

(Yes, the Guardian is there. But so is CNN! :))

adam

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Originally posted by dahamsta
Even the Sport was an improvement, what with the decent T&A an' all. :)

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That's always been the Star's problem. How many times can you publish pictures of the same 3 Irish "super" models at the launch of a new soft drink/mobile phone/ice cream. It gets boring after a while. ;)

KOH

But Conor its the Chicken and the Egg.

Why were they shaking all these peoples hands, why were they involved in talks etc.

Because of the very fact that, they along with others, had the said private armies and they drew up an agreement which was ment to have the armies disbanded by now.

Yea Mandela, was terrorist then gave it up and joined mainstrem, didnt keep his fingers in two pies.

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Originally posted by Conor74
I don't know for certain if the majority of people were subjected to British rule against their will. I mean, I thought that Home Rule, but very much remaining in the Commonwealth, was the popular choice before 1916, and that rebellion itself initially was extremely unpopular amongst the Irish. I stand open to correction though. I do accept that the actions of those in 1916 was much more romantic and heroic, the whole idea of blood sacrifice and all that, but I find it hard to accept that Padraig Pearse legacy can be very easily distinguished from, say, Bobby Sands 20 years ago.

I'm not sure about this whole 'private army' thing too. I know it's always wheeled out by the main parties when they want to do a hatchet job on Sinn Fein, to keep them in their place as some fringe party. But where was all this concern about 'private armies' when Gerry Adams was meeting with Major or Blair, or shaking hands with Bertie Ahern, or Dick Spring, or when the hand of time fell on certain peoples shoulders. They didn't seem too anxious to raise the matter than, it may have spoiled the photoshoots and the soundbites. Similarly, should we as a nation take a stand on principle against leaders like Nelson Mandela who got to power on the strength of private armies and terrorism? (Again, I am not conceding that SF have a 'private army'). I just think that if SF were good enough for years of negotiations, are good enough for their constituents, are good enough to hold positions of some importance in the Assembly and are a legitimate political party then we shouldn't place this artificial barrier in the way. Let's face it, if it, if all politicians were subject to extreme scrutiny for breaking the law, it wouldn't shock me if FF lost a few more faces...and we'd lose the only truly Socialist TD in Ireland...:eek:

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Wasn't Home Rule, a peaceful means to an end? After all the War of Independence effectively only brought us to the same stage. Also the Home Rulers did have the majority of seats, in the 26 counties at the very least. They were then over taken by the old Shinners, particularly in the "Put them in to get them out" campaigns...
On law breakers, I think you're mixing the issues. This debate/ argument is about how SF are funded, not about law breaking TD's....

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Back then the majority of the people in question were subject to British rule against their will. Today in Northern Ireland the majoirty of people are subject to British rule simply because it is their will. Of course that doesnt excuse what went on but in modern Ireland that is the reality.

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The majority of people in Ireland is what should matter, not the majority in a statelet invented to suit the powers that were.

As for the Sinn Féin argument, I wouldn't vote for them and i still don't know whether to trust them, but they're making the right noises and the others aren't. neither FF or FG have any right to criticise Sinn Féin as both had their own private armies. Oh yeah, and at least Sinn Féin realise the Civil War is over :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Éanna
The majority of people in Ireland is what should matter, not the majority in a statelet invented to suit the powers that were.

As for the Sinn Féin argument, I wouldn't vote for them and i still don't know whether to trust them, but they're making the right noises and the others aren't. neither FF or FG have any right to criticise Sinn Féin as both had their own private armies. Oh yeah, and at least Sinn Féin realise the Civil War is over :rolleyes:

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That post is 80 years to late. Should? Yea perhaps thats the way it should be but its not that way.

Just another point Éanna has reminded our with his ramblings of the past, they shouldnt even be allowed call themselves Sinn Féin and claim to be the oldest political party in Ireland. Provisional Sinn Féin is what they are.

FF long realise the Civil War is over, sure the freestaters are gone now, almost:)

FG RIP

Its probably not coincidence that a PD demagogue should be shouting so loudly about another party at this time.
His own gruppen is about to be subjected to a coup d'etat.

Parlon, the man who rampaged about the country looking for every type of state support and EU subsidy going and then suddenly realised that he was really a lifelong champion of the "free market" all along, has enrolled 800 other fellow slurry surfers in to the division. This is only slightly less than 50% of the entire membership of the scum, so he now effectively will control the vote at their next rally. He can get the voting rules changed to suit himself, so that he can choose to become either the Fuhrer or be the "kingmaker".

I look forward to the kapitan bleating long and loudly about that!...;)

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
That post is 80 years to late. Should? Yea perhaps thats the way it should be but its not that way.

Just another point Éanna has reminded our with his ramblings of the past, they shouldnt even be allowed call themselves Sinn Féin and claim to be the oldest political party in Ireland. Provisional Sinn Féin is what they are.

FF long realise the Civil War is over, sure the freestaters are gone now, almost:)

FG RIP

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Agree on the Provisional SF particularly as their founder supported the treaty!

On FG RIP, what a great day that will be for democracy when there is in effect no opposition government possible. Surely even you FF heads can't see it as a good thing if we're left with FF, Labour and a load of smaller parties/ independents??? Mind you, McDowell will just put his take over plan into action...

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Originally posted by Macy
Mind you, McDowell will just put his take over plan into action...

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As I already outlined, it looks like the kapitan is yesterdays man.
I guess that whole climbing up lamp posts thing was a little too proletarian for your average nazi......:p

At the end of the day I hope Nwanko gets his work permit!!!!!;) ;)

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Originally posted by Eric
At the end of the day I hope Nwanko gets his work permit!!!!!;) ;)

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But does Peadar? :D

KOH

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Originally posted by Macy
Agree on the Provisional SF particularly as their founder supported the treaty!

On FG RIP, what a great day that will be for democracy when there is in effect no opposition government possible. Surely even you FF heads can't see it as a good thing if we're left with FF, Labour and a load of smaller parties/ independents??? Mind you, McDowell will just put his take over plan into action...

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I donno Macy is it good for democracy to have two parties that are so similiar from a policy point of view and if they merged tomorrow they could well rule for long long time. If PDs/Green/Lab were to cut up FG btween them it could make things more interesting.

Imagne a Collation of the Unwilling of PDs/Greens/Lab and a few Ind. like Jackie Healy Rae. Be worth it for commedy value alone.

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
I donno Macy is it good for democracy to have two parties that are so similiar from a policy point of view and if they merged tomorrow they could well rule for long long time. If PDs/Green/Lab were to cut up FG btween them it could make things more interesting.

Imagne a Collation of the Unwilling of PDs/Greens/Lab and a few Ind. like Jackie Healy Rae. Be worth it for commedy value alone.

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Well I would argue that FF are the party that fúcks everything up.... For the most part those in the cabinet are right wing, but then you've centerists(?) and a few that are on left... What holds them together? The need for power and the civil war....

I hope the Healy Rae family get fúcked out by the electorate - I cringe everytime he's on the tele/ radio, and the impression of the backward country he/they give off*....

*Cue Conor defend his fellow Kerryman, and his former FF buddy

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Originally posted by Conor74
I have no time for JHR as a politican. I have canvassed against him and we nearly caused an upset last time out.

But still, it's a funny county. Remember we elected a milllionaire 'socialist' for years...

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How can this be he had no money to buy shares?

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Originally posted by Conor74
But still, it's a funny county. Remember we elected a milllionaire 'socialist' for years...

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And ye replaced him with a gun runner who is a thug.
AND, Ye also elected a tax dodger who is a liar
I know which one I'd choose from that bunch....

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Originally posted by Conor74
Forgot the most objectionable bit about Spring of course.

Feckin' egg chaser;)

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That counts against anyone in my book, but it's still not as bad as
a feckin' leg breaking, kneecapping thug.

I think its absolutely disgusting that a convicted gun runner gets chosen ahead of someone who tried to do his best to stop bloodshed and the loss of life......:mad:

No matter what about Spring, you can never say that supplying the means to kill, maim and injure people is on his CV.
[SIZE=1](off the rugger field that is, ;) )[/SIZE]

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Originally posted by SÓCcfc
I donno Macy is it good for democracy to have two parties that are so similiar from a policy point of view and if they merged tomorrow they could well rule for long long time. If PDs/Green/Lab were to cut up FG btween them it could make things more interesting.

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Well said. the only tangible difference between FF and FG IMO is what side their granddads were on 80 years ago. The sooner we havea real opposition in this country the better, as things stand none of them are worth a vote, Irish politics needs a breath of fresh air. And if FF did swallow up FG (lets face it, that a lot more likely than a 'merger') who'd notice- its not like anyone would miss enda kenny!

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Originally posted by Conor74
I know what you're thinking Eanna...Micheal Martin for Taoiseach...right? right? ;)

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No, I was thinking Micheal and all the other wasters in Dáil Eireann for a firing squad to be honest. there's about 3 or 4 people in there who are possibly worth saving,the rest of them are feckless leeches