European Parliament Elections 2009

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Originally Posted by irishultra

if libertas are voted in does that mean irish will no longer have free movement within EU. how about if I leave this ****ty country beforehand, would it still apply?

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There's nothing in their explanation in Post #31, that suggests we won't have free movement within the EU.

Obviously, if Libertas implement their immigration views there'll be no comeback on Ireland. :rolleyes:

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IMMIGRATION ROW: LIBERTAS HAS been accused of being “fascist” and of playing the “immigration card” with its plans to impose a two-year limit on migration into Ireland from other European states and a ban on immigrants claiming benefits here.

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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...246700677.html

Raymond O'Malley is talking about closing the borders. Even if people agree with the right wing sentiment, and don't mind being in the company of such well respected people as fascist white nationalists in the UK (judging what google throws up and their approval for the comments), do they honestly think we can go it alone and there won't be similar conditions put on us?

In Poland, their candidates are from the League of Polish Families, who are essentially Catholic Fundamentalist, and other candidates there include outspoken holocaust deniers. In Italy they're aligned to fascists.

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Originally Posted by Macy

In Poland, their candidates are from the League of Polish Families, who are essentially Catholic Fundamentalist, and other candidates there include outspoken holocaust deniers. In Italy they're aligned to fascists.

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Was considering voting for them here in Germany, except that they f*cked up their registration procedure so can't take part, and now they've gone and declared support for a right-wing Catholic "Family" party (non-fascist, but anti- lots of stuff like gay rights). That's that then. From the sound of their (Libertas) forums a lot of their erstwhile German supporters have turned away from them too.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Obviously, if Libertas implement their immigration views there'll be no comeback on Ireland. :rolleyes:



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...246700677.html

Raymond O'Malley is talking about closing the borders. Even if people agree with the right wing sentiment, and don't mind being in the company of such well respected people as fascist white nationalists in the UK (judging what google throws up and their approval for the comments), do they honestly think we can go it alone and there won't be similar conditions put on us?

In Poland, their candidates are from the League of Polish Families, who are essentially Catholic Fundamentalist, and other candidates there include outspoken holocaust deniers. In Italy they're aligned to fascists.

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Yeah maybe, but still better than FF and FG - dont you think!:p

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Yeah maybe, but still better than FF and FG - dont you think!:p

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No.

Even looking this Blue Card suggestion in a selfish manner if this was to be implemented on EU wide basis it would mean unemployed Irish people in say the UK having to come back to Ireland. As I don't see Ireland economy picking up as quickly as others it is likely that emigration will be necessary.

Libertas claim to be pro EU but a polucy like that shows they are opposed to the very core of the EU which is freedom of movement & right to employment in different countries.

People can't emigrate, because there are no jobs in the UK, like there are no jobs here. The recession isn't just restricted to Ireland, you know.

Libertas are opposed to Turkish membership of the EU, and from reading their website, you can see why.

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Originally Posted by mypost

People can't emigrate, because there are no jobs in the UK, like there are no jobs here. The recession isn't just restricted to Ireland, you know

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There are 1,000s of Jobs all over europe. Some people can't find work. Other people are being headhunted to lead multinational corporations

Under Libertas, Irish people wouldn't be allowed take up these jobs in Europe.

Not everybody who emigrates does so because they have to.

Oh and on Turkey, ther figures are way, way out.

I'd be against Turkey joining myelf, but not on economic grounds

The EU has 500 million citizens. A few thousand jobs available, is nowhere near the level needed to reduce the level of unemployment throughout the Union significantly, or stimulate economies.

A lot of jobs that are available are high level jobs, that only a select number of people can apply for, and who are usually already in employment anyway.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU has 500 million citizens. A few thousand jobs available, is nowhere near the level needed to reduce the level of unemployment throughout the Union significantly, or stimulate economies.

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Go on then, tell me how Libertas will help this

Wheres proof that their candidates "in Italy are aligned to Fascists"???If your gonna say you read that in the Irish TImes too then im just gonna laugh.The Irish Times is NEVER trying to smear Libertas at all:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

A lot of jobs that are available are high level jobs, that only a select number of people can apply for, and who are usually already in employment anyway.

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I was over in Madrid back in March and there were more "people wanted" signs in shops there then there are here. I was really surprised because Spain has always had a high level of unemployment, something like 17%, iirc.

Yet despite the recession as well as high unemployment, there were still more places like Burger King, shoe shops, etc. actively looking for staff then over here. And that was just one European country.

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Originally Posted by mypost

A lot of jobs that are available are high level jobs, that only a select number of people can apply for, and who are usually already in employment anyway.

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Seeing as you editted it

ANy stats for this? Or are you only using my example. Either way, if that person leaves their current job, it frees up a job here.

And why should the Gvernment act in a way to discourage Irish people from taking jobs abroad? How will that help anyone? Regardless of level?

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Yet despite the recession as well as high unemployment, there were still more places like Burger King, shoe shops, etc. actively looking for staff then over here. And that was just one European country.

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True, Burger King and McD are advertising here too. How many applications did they get in Galway/Ennis recently? How come everyone suddenly wants to work for them?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

ANy stats for this? Or are you only using my example.

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There are no stats. However, go onto any job website today, and choose any industry, and you'll see for yourself the requirements needed just to apply for the position, let alone get an interview, or succeed in it. Beginner level jobs are very much in the minority.

So you admit there's jobs available for Irish people and you want Libertas to stop them getting the jobs?

I got a Libertas leaflet and found it pretty laughable. 3/4 of it was covered with attacks on other parties, before a wee bit about about themselves.

They're in favour of jobs and development apparently.

Which is nice.

They strike me as a very sinister organization to be honest, they'll only manage to creep above SF on my ballot paper.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU has 500 million citizens. A few thousand jobs available, is nowhere near the level needed to reduce the level of unemployment throughout the Union significantly, or stimulate economies.

A lot of jobs that are available are high level jobs, that only a select number of people can apply for, and who are usually already in employment anyway.

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Please can you provide evidence that there are more management jobs available than entry level in the EU.

That's a mad statement tbh, completely unsupportable.

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Originally Posted by Mr. A

I got a Libertas leaflet and found it pretty laughable. 3/4 of it was covered with attacks on other parties, before a wee bit about about themselves.

They strike me as a very sinister organization to be honest, they'll only manage to creep above SF on my ballot paper.

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FF are a sinister organisation too. Doesn't stop people voting for them.

Attacking other parties is to campaigning, as eating and drinking.

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Originally Posted by mypost

FF are a sinister organisation too. Doesn't stop people voting for them.

Attacking other parties is to campaigning, as eating and drinking.

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FF aren't sinister, it's clear as day they are out to serve themselves and a small cabal of special interests.

Libertas only common ground is dissatisfaction with the current European structure. Their policies are contradictory and unclear, and their financing is a complete black hole.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Attacking other parties is to campaigning, as eating and drinking.

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I agree, well put.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

... Libertas... strike me as a very sinister organization to be honest, they'll only manage to creep above SF on my ballot paper.

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Neither will get a vote on mine. I'll have voted for some people who are sure to get in before my vote would ever reach either of them. Libertas seem to believe in negative campaigning, pandering to popular fears and dodgy funding. And frankly, if I want any of that, I'll vote FF.

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Originally Posted by mypost

People can't emigrate, because there are no jobs in the UK, like there are no jobs here. The recession isn't just restricted to Ireland, you know.

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Amoung developed countries Irelands is being hit worse than all other countries besides Iceland. I presume this is because we are doubly hit because of global issues as well as collapse of property market. It is very likely that other countries will see recovery faster than Ireland because they have not fallen as badly.

I am not sure why we are even debating stupid Libertas policy as there is no chance it will ever see the light of day. Unless Ganley can get a lot of transfers there won;t be any Libertas MEPs from Ireland. It will however be very interesting to see where Libertas get their transfers...

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Originally Posted by pete

Amoung developed countries Irelands is being hit worse than all other countries besides Iceland. I presume this is because we are doubly hit because of global issues as well as collapse of property market. It is very likely that other countries will see recovery faster than Ireland because they have not fallen as badly.

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The main reasons we're hit, is down to the collapse of the construction indsustry, and government levy policy. There is nothing there to get the economy moving again. There is some hope of getting our house in order with a different government, but we have to wait 3 years before that is possible, and if the opposition can't get it right then having howled at the moon for 12-15 years, they never will.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The main reasons we're hit, is down to the collapse of the construction indsustry, and government levy policy. There is nothing there to get the economy moving again. There is some hope of getting our house in order with a different government, but we have to wait 3 years before that is possible, and if the opposition can't get it right then having howled at the moon for 12-15 years, they never will.

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Exactly. If other countries pick up say next year under Libertas proposals it would restrict Irish workers going abroad.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

I agree, well put.

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???What??? :D Read the statement again. It makes no sense whatsoever....

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Attacking other parties is to campaigning, as eating and drinking

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I think I can fathom the metaphor he attempted to employ but seriously like ..."well put" ?!?!

;)

I thought bald Student was being sarcastic

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Originally Posted by pete

Exactly. If other countries pick up say next year under Libertas proposals it would restrict Irish workers going abroad.

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When the 10 EU countries were admitted in 2004, only Ireland and the UK opened their doors to anyone who wanted to come in. There were some benefits, but it brought new racism and integration challenges. Most countries governments put restrictions on those coming across their borders, some up to 7 years after 2004. They were taken by established parties in power. Libertas are neither. It seems to me, another stick to beat them with.

Now, almost every EU country is in recession, so emigration of Irish workers hasn't drastically increased despite the unemployment problems here.

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Originally Posted by ORA

FF aren't sinister, it's clear as day they are out to serve themselves and a small cabal of special interests.

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And that isn't sinister?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

There were some benefits, but it brought new racism and integration challenges. Most countries governments put restrictions on those coming across their borders, some up to 7 years after 2004.

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Racism is being stoked up though, by parties using that card in elections. Like, eh, Libertas for example. So Libertas solution is to implement restrictions just as everyone else is getting ready to lift them?

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Originally Posted by mypost

Now, almost every EU country is in recession, so emigration of Irish workers hasn't drastically increased despite the unemployment problems here.

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Now, but the point is we're likely to lag in terms of upturn, and Libertas policy is to restrict the options for irish people to go abroad at work. That's after effectively forcing emigrants back here, because of their policy of not allowing immigrants to get benefits.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

I got a Libertas leaflet and found it pretty laughable. 3/4 of it was covered with attacks on other parties, before a wee bit about about themselves.

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Well I have had FG and Labour at my door and for 99% of the time they just attacked FF. I asked them if they had any positive suggestions and within 2 seconds they had resorted back to passing negative comments.

Way too much moaning and petty point scoring for my liking.

Watched V Browne last night - were doing my constituency (wonder can Westmeath now apply to take part in the Ulster Hurling champs - reckon we might have a chance!!!!)

The SF and Independents came across very well - the FG was a joke and treated as such and Pat the cope refused to go on the show.
Funny to see Browne have his little attack on the shinners - jesus the bile was running out of him
If ever there was a reason to vote against Lisbon it was shown by the labour one - who when asked why she would vote for the treaty even though no concrete changes were put into it - she basically said that beacasue FF said it was so, so she would trust what the government would say - man labour are funny!!!!!

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Originally Posted by reder

Well I have had FG and Labour at my door and for 99% of the time they just attacked FF. I asked them if they had any positive suggestions and within 2 seconds they had resorted back to passing negative comments.

Way too much moaning and petty point scoring for my liking.

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Should people really vote on the "better the devil you know" arguement?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I thought bald Student was being sarcastic

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I had a little double-take when I read it, but then I read mypost's drivel again, and concluded the same thing.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

If ever there was a reason to vote against Lisbon it was shown by the labour one - who when asked why she would vote for the treaty even though no concrete changes were put into it - she basically said that beacasue FF said it was so, so she would trust what the government would say - man labour are funny!!!!!

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It's not a reason, it's another reason.

If the whole country trusted the government now, "because FF said it was so" we'd look 10 times the laughing stock we currently are.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Should people really vote on the "better the devil you know" arguement?

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I'm a turd sandwich man myself. Any one voting for douche bag?

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Originally Posted by Macy

So Libertas solution is to implement restrictions just as everyone else is getting ready to lift them? Now, but the point is we're likely to lag in terms of upturn, and Libertas policy is to restrict the options for irish people to go abroad at work. That's after effectively forcing emigrants back here, because of their policy of not allowing immigrants to get benefits.

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Everyone's in the same boat in the recession and everyone will recover at more or less the same time.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Everyone's in the same boat in the recession and everyone will recover at more or less the same time.

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Ha! :)

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Originally Posted by mypost

Everyone's in the same boat in the recession and everyone will recover at more or less the same time.

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You do realise that's completely at odds with what you've said on this and other threads over the last 12 months?

If every economy moves together (ridiculous assertion btw. Compare growth rates over the last decade between EU nations) then surely
1) labour borders are irrelevant and superfluous
2) The EU is an Optimal Currency Area and the Euro should be widened

You're arguing for stronger integration...

I've always argued pro-Eurozone, as it's not integration. It's merely changing a few notes and coins, which benefits every citizen, not only politicians.

When the Irish economy was strong, the UK economy was strong as well. When the new EU countries came in, their economies improved at the same time with each other. Now the European economy is what it is, it's like a domino effect on everyone else.

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Originally Posted by mypost

I've always argued pro-Eurozone, as it's not integration. It's merely changing a few notes and coins, which benefits every citizen, not only politicians.

When the Irish economy was strong, the UK economy was strong as well. When the new EU countries came in, their economies improved at the same time with each other. Now the European economy is what it is, it's like a domino effect on everyone else.

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Wowser :eek:

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Should people really vote on the "better the devil you know" arguement?

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Im not saying that. My comments related to the fact that the user I quoted was suggesting that Libertas spent its time complaining about other parties and offered little or no positive ideas. I was merely saying that other parties at my doorstep were doing the same.

Yeah, that's fair enough. For the record I had a FF on my doorstop last night and his main argument was "can the others do any better"? I asked him for 3 specific things he'd do to help local schools. He couldn't give me one.