The League

The idea that a smaller group of clubs on a full time pro footing will raise the standerd and profile of the game along with nurturing young tallant has no real basis in reality.Young tallent is developed at schoolboy level to a very good standerd all over the country year in year out but the cream of our schoolboy crop only ever make fleeting appearances in the domestic league if at all.Im not against players earning money and playing full time but the wages have to be realistic.Im still not convinced that cutting adrift viable clubs in a graveyard division helps football in this country in any way.Im not going to bash the FAI as I think they will get the league running in the right way as soon as they start enforcing rules evenly across the board but the clubs and indeed some of the overpaid players need a reality check .

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Originally Posted by Gareth

As stated above, a 16 team Premier Division, no First division, with the A League being the league were potential new teams can develop and grow, as well as "feeder" clubs who are not after promotion, just the development of talent in the league. Sort of a Wexford Youths style setup in different centers around the country.

Teams in Dublin should really share grounds rather than having resources wasted maintaining numerous grounds.

The 10 team PRO league was dead before it was even close to happening. We need to nurture talent and stop shooting ourselves in the foot with 10 team leagues and 3 Divisions. Resources are small already.

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Best solution I've heard yet, but what are the chances of the FAI paying any attention to this.

So what would you top 16 be? Mines would be

Finn Harps
Sligo Rovers
Derry City
Galway United
Bohemians
Shamrock Rovers
St. Patrick's Athletic
Shelbourne
U.C.D.
Cork City*
Dundalk
Drogheda United
Bray Wanderers
Waterford
Athlone
Longford

* If Cork fold replace with either Limerick, Kildare or Cobh

Kildare in the Premier. :eek:

Just so long as they get a bit of notice first.

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Originally Posted by Neish

Best solution I've heard yet, but what are the chances of the FAI paying any attention to this.

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What solutions? Change the amount of teams in the league and force the Dublin clubs to groundshare?

What would that do?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

What solutions? Change the amount of teams in the league and force the Dublin clubs to groundshare?

What would that do?

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Not talking about the ground share but the 16 team division. Team that win A League could be given opportunity to apply for licence for premier. Some of the teams I listed in my 16 aren't in great shape (including Harps) but most if not all have supporter bases or potential bases to keep them ticking over

I'll ask again, what is a 16 team league a solution to?

I'd love to see harps in the premier but what do the proponents of a 16 team league think that this will achieve?

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Originally Posted by Neish

Best solution I've heard yet, but what are the chances of the FAI paying any attention to this.

So what would you top 16 be? Mines would be

Finn Harps
Sligo Rovers
Derry City
Galway United
Bohemians
Shamrock Rovers
St. Patrick's Athletic
Shelbourne
U.C.D.
Cork City*
Dundalk
Drogheda United
Bray Wanderers
Waterford
Athlone
Longford

* If Cork fold replace with either Limerick, Kildare or Cobh

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:eek::eek::eek:. Kildare and Cobh in the Premier? That would be a joke. Monaghan and Wexford are run far better than a few clubs you already have in the Premier.

Mine would be:
Bohemians
St Patricks Athletic
Shamrock Rovers
Shelbourne
Dundalk
Galway United
Sligo Rovers
Waterford United
Derry City
Finn Harps
Limerick FC
Drogheda Utd
Waterford Utd
UCD
Bray Wanderers
Monaghan Utd

If Cork don't fold, I'd have them in for Monaghan

That leaves Athlone, Longford Town, Fingal, Mervue, Kildare, Cobh, Castlebar, Tralee, Carlow, Salthill, Tullamore, Wexford Youths and possibly Kilkenny and Portlaoise to be split into regionalised groups along with some reserve teams from above

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'll ask again, what is a 16 team league a solution to?

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repetitiviness

Don't you think every team outside the top five having a meaningless fixture every week for two thirds of the season would be repetitive enough?

Pats might not lose 3-0 to some of those teams though :cool:

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Don't you think every team outside the top five having a meaningless fixture every week for two thirds of the season would be repetitive enough?

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well a said look at all european league, how many of thise leagues have had more than 4 different league winners in the last 10 years, or 20 in some cases, you will have teams diminateing thats just the way it is,

your not gonna have 16 teams pushing for the title, you will have teams that will be happy just to aviod relegation,
look at england for the best example, some teams are happy to be mid table other just to avoid the drop, some are happy just to get into europe, and outside the top 4 clubs the greatest achievement the other 16 can do is break into the top 4,

i find playing say cork city at home at the start of april and more than likely play them again by the end of may, and again at the start of september, it kills the rivialry, and the game come to be more of a social gathering of catching up with some fella i met at the last game, and see how hes getting on, there no rivilary

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Originally Posted by don ramo

there no rivilary

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There's no rivalry because Cobh never had a chance of winning.

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Originally Posted by don ramo

well a said look at all european league, how many of thise leagues have had more than 4 different league winners in the last 10 years, or 20 in some cases, you will have teams diminateing thats just the way it is,

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So you're arguing for a 16 team league because a 10 team league is repetitive, and you're arguing against a league that has different winners? That makes no sense

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Originally Posted by Dodge

So you're arguing for a 16 team league because a 10 team league is repetitive, and you're arguing against a league that has different winners? That makes no sense

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im not argueing against a league that has multiple winners at all,

im saying that no matter how many clubs in a league there will be 2-3 clubs that will dominate the league for a decade or so, regardless if its 10, 12 or 16, there is always a team that dominates,

people here are saying 16 teams will compromise the quailty of the league, how so, you have 4 extra teams playing 4 differnt styles of football, extra competition, and i think there a strong arguement that it would generate better rivilary if you didnt meet the same team so consistently


at this moment in time there are 28 LOI clubs, surely something that be done to make it more interesting, and it has to be interesting otherwise it will just die off slowly, playing each other maybe 6 or 7 times a year isnt intersting, but thats just me


so what would you prefer dodge keep the current set-up 10/12/3-3

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Originally Posted by don ramo

so what would you prefer dodge keep the current set-up 10/12/3-3

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Don't really care. 10 is too few, 16 is too many, 12 gives an uneven amount of home and away games.

If some decent research is put into it and its decided to go with 10,12, 14, 16 it wouldn't bother me either way

What I have a problem with is people saying "16 teams is the ONLY way to go" and then giving absolutely no back up to that claim. The league has tons of problems, none of them caused by the amount of teams in each division

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'll ask again, what is a 16 team league a solution to?

I'd love to see harps in the premier but what do the proponents of a 16 team league think that this will achieve?

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I watched RoversvKildare last night and Kildare had two players thats it 6 and 10 .Now if that club was not cut adrift in the graveyard they would attract one or two other good players and in turn get a bigger gate as they would be worth watching .The added attraction of them playing against the so called big clubs would also bring more to their home games and they might stand a chance of keeping the 6 and 10 during the window and actually move on as a club.The two lads are good prospects and the number 6 was man of the match by a mile,I think he`s from Ghana .

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Originally Posted by RoversHead

I watched RoversvKildare last night and Kildare had two players thats it 6 and 10 .Now if that club was not cut adrift in the graveyard they would attract one or two other good players and in turn get a bigger gate as they would be worth watching .The added attraction of them playing against the so called big clubs would also bring more to their home games and they might stand a chance of keeping the 6 and 10 during the window and actually move on as a club.

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The counter to that is that clubs like Cork, Rovers, Dundalk etc would get less crowds for their games.

Should the league be run on the basis that Kildare might geta few people through the turnstiles 4/5 times a season?

Like I said its all speculation on our behalf, and until research is done on that matter, I'll remain sceptical

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Don't really care. 10 is too few, 16 is too many, 12 gives an uneven amount of home and away games.

If some decent research is put into it and its decided to go with 10,12, 14, 16 it wouldn't bother me either way

What I have a problem with is people saying "16 teams is the ONLY way to go" and then giving absolutely no back up to that claim. The league has tons of problems, none of them caused by the amount of teams in each division

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Dodge, I believe I raised the 16 team point, and at no point did I say it was the only way to go. I have mentioned why I gave the number, and it was based on having a league that sees teams compete twice against each other, which seems to be the model for the more successful league in this world, by accident or design. It was just a point in a post I made on how the league might work better.

To expand on the point, 5 regional feeder/excellence (whatever word you choose to use) centers, Dublin, South-East, South-West, West/North-West and Midlands could be set up (Wexford Youths, UCD, and other new clubs (Salthill-Devon? for the West)). I mention UCD and Wexford Youths as I think they are the best suited of the current teams to fill these roles. It's by no means an insult to their fans, I think the clubs operate excellently. They would play in the second tier league in conjunction with a selection of reserve teams from the Prem and potential other clubs who would aim for promotion. The aim of these centers would be to develop young talent which will graduate to the Premier division.

In the Premier, It would make sense for certain teams to merge but you battle against history, the loss of tradition etc etc which are hard things to let go of, and equally hard to potentially merge with bitter rivals. However I do think it seems like business sense on paper. Less competition for the same market space.

Anyways...

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Originally Posted by Gareth

In the Premier, It would make sense for certain teams to merge but you battle against history, the loss of tradition etc etc which are hard things to let go of, and equally hard to potential merge with bitter rivals. However I do think it seems like business sense on paper.

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I really just can't so how anyone could propose mergers. Many of the hardcore (and that's all we have really) would walk away from the league if this ever happened. I would never follow another team.

The elite loads of money derby between Bohs and Pats attracted 200 Pats fans and a half full Jodi .Rovers v Kildare attracted 1500+ on a dreary monday night,six of one half a dozen of the other really.The point is we can only build a sustainable league if we build sustainable clubs.I dont see this happening over night but the journey has been started and I would rather clubs like Kildare came along instead of being left to rot.

For the record there's no way in hell Kildare would be part of any top 16...

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Don't you think every team outside the top five having a meaningless fixture every week for two thirds of the season would be repetitive enough?

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I dont think there is such a thing as a meaningless fixture when your building a club or a team but two clubs cut adrift playing in front of one man and his dog could certainly give that impression.

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Originally Posted by RoversHead

I dont think there is such a thing as a meaningless fixture when your building a club or a team but two clubs cut adrift playing in front of one man and his dog could certainly give that impression.

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So why only 16 of the league's teams then?

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Originally Posted by RoversHead

The point is we can only build a sustainable league if we build sustainable clubs.

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We have a sustainable league. The LOI has been around since 1921.

What you want it a sustainable league which is at a higher level than it is now. But the fact that we don't get 5000 for every game and d very well in Europe means that we can't get 5000 for every game and do very well in Europe.

Sadly, there are not thousands of fans out there just waiting to go to shiny new stadiums to watch top quality players. If that group of fans existed, we'd have tapped into them by now. Clubs who have overspent trying to offer this to potential fans have suffered for doing so. It is not a case of "If we build it, they will come."

No matter how many teams in how many divisions playing each other however many times, the standard of the league is not going to change dramatically.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

So why only 16 of the league's teams then?

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Im not even sure there are 16 viable candidates Dodge but if a club is being run in the right manner I would have them in.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

We have a sustainable league. The LOI has been around since 1921.

What you want it a sustainable league which is at a higher level than it is now. But the fact that we don't get 5000 for every game and d very well in Europe means that we can't get 5000 for every game and do very well in Europe.

Sadly, there are not thousands of fans out there just waiting to go to shiny new stadiums to watch top quality players. If that group of fans existed, we'd have tapped into them by now. Clubs who have overspent trying to offer this to potential fans have suffered for doing so. It is not a case of "If we build it, they will come."

No matter how many teams in how many divisions playing each other however many times, the standard of the league is not going to change dramatically.

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Osarusan, hi. The league has been around since 1921, but that is not an indicator of doing something right now. Times change, and 90 years history doesn't guarantee the future. I don't think we have any shiny new stadia in the League of Ireland. We certainly have a new stand here and there, but I don't think we built it and they didn't come. I think you are overestimating the current level of infrastructure.

Clubs should only pay out what they can afford. Needing 5000 people to come in the gate a week is not a suitable business plan. You create your business around reality and not hopes. Dreams are good to have, but solid goals and realistic targets are what is needed. Clubs pay too much on wages. If not doing that doesn't get the players then that is what will happen, but at least it would give clubs the chance to build correctly rather than racing for glory, exploding due to costs and start again... (or worse go out of business)

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Originally Posted by Gareth

Osarusan, hi. The league has been around since 1921, but that is not an indicator of doing something right now. Times change, and 90 years history doesn't guarantee the future. I don't think we have any shiny new stadia in the League of Ireland. We certainly have a new stand here and there, but I don't think we built it and they didn't come. I think you are overestimating the current level of infrastructure.

Clubs should only pay out what they can afford. Needing 5000 people to come in the gate a week is not a suitable business plan. You create your business around reality and not hopes. Dreams are good to have, but solid goals and realistic targets are what is needed. Clubs pay too much on wages. If not doing that doesn't get the players then that is what will happen, but at least it would give clubs the chance to build correctly rather than racing for glory, exploding due to costs and start again... (or worse go out of business)

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I would agree with most of this - the one point being that I think people really overestimate the difference a change in the structure of the league will have on its sustainability.

Everybody wants to see the league be both sustainable and at a higher level than it is now.

But I haven't seen any ideas that I think will bring us closer to that goal.

I think to get a more sustainable model you need sustainable clubs and not clubs spending way above the odds. It will mean a lower caliber of player in the league perhaps but I would rather that than by numerous clubs battling for survival in the courts etc

Then we look to develop the league into an option for you g talent

How is your model - 16 team Premier and removing the other six to a developmental, regional league, with some top clubs merging by my reading? - going to improve that though?

The problem is that the last few years have given people a much inflated opinion of where the league is. We need to come back down to reality and then try and build slowly from there by doing the basics right. Maybe that mightn't "work", in the sense of European success, 5000 crowds, etc. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong tack.

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Originally Posted by Gareth

I think to get a more sustainable model you need sustainable clubs and not clubs spending way above the odds. It will mean a lower caliber of player in the league perhaps but I would rather that than by numerous clubs battling for survival in the courts etc

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I agree completely.

But I just don't see how changing the number of teams or structure of the league will help this, or that they need be connected at all.

ok the 16 team point was merely because I think league where you only play each other twice seems to be a common thread amongst the most successful leagues. If that can be done with less cool. The point is the reason rather run the specific number

in my opinion there is not enough talent or interest to support a 16 team top flight.
The two tier system (parttime/fulltime) will not work.
Fulltime football is unsustainable in the leagues current form.
The way the league is structured at the moment there is a possibility that, say, Cork fold, Drogheda and Galway get relegated and replaced by Shels. UCD and S. Fingal. The top tier will have 7 dublin area clubs and 3 regional clubs. This is not sustainable.

The solution is difficult. Bitter pills will have to be swallowed but in my opinion,
there should be a 16 team amateur club league which feeds 4 to 6 profesional regional teams (all ireland). These teams play in a pro celtic league with 4 welsh teams. If this were to succeed, Scottish clubs sick of the rangers /celtic domination may consider joining. Yes the league looses its european places to the new celtic league but in its current form, no success will be achieved.

I live in Boston at the moment and regularly attend NE revolution games. I have been to football matches all over the world and I firmly believe that tapping in on the marketing and promotion done bu the IRFU is the way forward.

There is a club rugby match happening soon in dublin that will sell out a 80000 stadium. To ignore the success of pro rugby will be the death of the league.

I realize nobody here would be a fan of this idea but its been on my mind for about 10 years and as the leagues in Ireland, NI and Wales hit problem after problem, I grow more and more frustrated.

Appologies for the rant

Ruairi

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Originally Posted by Gareth

ok the 16 team point was merely because I think league where you only play each other twice seems to be a common thread amongst the most successful leagues. If that can be done with less cool. The point is the reason rather run the specific number

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But, again, the number is irrellevant as those leagues are not succesful because the teams only play each other twice.

Dodge, last time on this, I think playing opposition twice is a better option than three or four times. I cite the fact major leagues only play twice as a reference to it being done. It's a very minor factor but just one I mentioned. I don't think it is anything more than that. 16 was just a number I seen as being able to sustain playing twice. Plus it fit withmy removal of a first division. :)

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Originally Posted by Gareth

The point is the reason rather run the specific number

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

How is your model - 16 team Premier and removing the other six to a developmental, regional league, with some top clubs merging by my reading? - going to improve that though?

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I just think a league that includes all available financially viable clubs from both divisions is a better platform than what we have in terms of moving forward .Im not too hung up on the number of clubs in that league or the quality they would bring .The league administrators would really need to have a look at themselves in terms of what has been allowed to happen at Cork ,Bohs and Drogs they flagshiped these clubs and fuelled their expectations beyond reality.

i think this is a fascinating debate with some very good arguements. A 16 team league does sound appealing but i think it is flawed in this country for a number of reasons:

1) we only have 22 league clubs. unless clubs are in the shake up for the top or trying to avoid bottom the remaining 10 or 12 teams in the league have nothing really to play for.
2) Countries that generally have 16 to 20 teams in their league have population basis almost 10 times the size of ireland
3) Whilst I agree lower teams need the top clubs going to their place for a bumper gate the standard of the football in the league will diminish.

Overall i believe a 10 team league is the way forward. although 4 series of games may seem frustrating to some, teams have a fighting chance against each other and class differences are not as great.
I think where we have gone wrong, and especially with the A league is that the 1st has never been given much publicity and the A League gets even less. My thoughts on how are league should be run would be a 10 team premier and a 10 team first along with 2 10 team A Championship. (although I still don't understand the relevance of the A Championship. Could this not of incorporated the U21 teams instead of reserves).

My ideas don't go against the grain here but I think while the league is far from perfect, we all get bogged down in what is bad with our league and some clubs allow the knockers more ammo against us, there are good points to be taken from the league and these good points should be only talked about.
It is easy for us to sit on our LOI pedastal and proclaim the we support true football and then constantly knock the league at the perfect opportunity. There is no easy solution to the problems but our problems are representative of all leagues outside the top 5 (England, Italy, Spain, France & Germany). every other league is losing supporters to the television, xbox, ps2, ds lite and wii.

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Originally Posted by Hairy Bowsie

What the league needs, is to be spelt right in the thread title.

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And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :)

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Talk balls

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

And to have thread titles that actually say what the thread is about in the first place.

Standards have slipped badly on foot.ie..... :)

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In fairness the original topic on this thread was nothing to do with what is being talked about now.

So try and actually read what was originally asked before you go talking sh1te.