Irish public popularity shift away from soccer?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

On the flip side Ciaran, having seen what happened in Saipan you'd think it could never happen again in Irish sport, yet the IRFU did as good a job as possible at copying it during the calamitous WC07 campaign, including the preparation. The report published in response was a whitewash of epic proportions that put the original Genesis Report in the shade.

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Having jumped through any number of hoops to get hold of the original Genesis Report (various UCD fans followed numerous avenues to failure before the late Seamus Brennan got us a copy), and having confirmed with the IRFU that their Genesis Report was not being made available to the public, I'm not sure that it's fair to make a comparison. But perhaps I'm making bad assumptions, and you're connected enough to have read both reports. In my opinion, the report on Saipan was fairly pathetic. The IRFU one would have to be unspeakably bad to really "put [it] in the shade".

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A blog piece on foot.ie seems to put the FAI in a good light re-licensing etc. If the FAI is to be believed there really has been a shift to state of the art governance structures in the Irish game.

Just one side of the argument but valid nonetheless...

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I assume you mean the Q&A with Padraig Smith? In fairness, he is an FAI employee - that article was always going to show the FAI in a good light. There do appear to be significant improvements to governance here, but it's not yet clear that these are effective or being implimented correctly. The perception among many fans is that licensing has been and continues to be fudged, and the financial problems of last year belie any claims that everything's suddenly rosy. I'm still willing to give it time - things were in such a bad state that it will take ages to right.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

The opportunity for fans to watch what is widely perceived as the Chamipons League equivalent on their own doorstep has generated interest in Rugby unheard of 10+ years ago.

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On top of that, it also allows the public to relate to our "stars" in a way that it's hard to with our UK football stars. The rubgy guys live here and work here. The footballers are away in the clouds!

As said above, the old bond between fan and team has been broken in football but it can be won back - the likes of Doyle and Stephen Hunt clearly have brought a sense of realism back into the fold.

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Originally Posted by John83

In my opinion, the report on Saipan was fairly pathetic. The IRFU one would have to be unspeakably bad to really "put [it] in the shade".

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I didn't read the rugby report but the newspapers covered it well and were scathing of it. I can't remember the key details but I think the biggest criticism was the offering of EO'S a lucrative new long term contract at a time when it was almost unanimous his job should at best be deserving of only one short last chance. I think everyone in the game agreed it was a whitewash, no blame was placed despite a number of disastrous errors in the preparation and organisation.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I didn't read the rugby report but the newspapers covered it well and were scathing of it. I can't remember the key details but I think the biggest criticism was the offering of EO'S a lucrative new long term contract at a time when it was almost unanimous his job should at best be deserving of only one short last chance. I think everyone in the game agreed it was a whitewash, no blame was placed despite a number of disastrous errors in the preparation and organisation.

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I may have this wrong, but I think that journalists were only given access to an IRFU summary (which was published in full). This could have significantly distorted the perception of the report.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Looking through some RTE viewership figures I was really surprised to see the Soccer matches doing so poorly, not just against Rugby but against all sports in general. Especially since we're doing so well this campaign.

Average figures for some sporting events are:

Ireland v Wales (Rugby) - 952,000
All Ireland Hurling Final - 709,000
All Ireland Football Final - 707,00
Bernard Dunne's Fight - 585,000
Ireland v Cyprus - 517,000

You might argue that the four ranked above the qualifier were all far more significant matches in their sport than the qualifier but what was really telling for me was moving away from Ireland games and comparing a big Six Nations game with a big Champions League game.

France v Wales (Six Nations) - 536,000
Man Utd v Inter Milan (Champions League) - 497,000

I read before that the Premiership highlights show prior to christmas was getting stuffed ratings wise by the Heineken Cup highlights show too, nice to see the sporting shift move away from foreign teams and on to our own. Just hope our national teams public interest decline halts soon, I really think we need to qualify this campaign or the game in this country is in serious trouble.

Sources:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnat...3/ireland.html
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2009/0110/rtetelevision.html
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnat.../ireland1.html
http://www.rte.ie/about/pressrelease...s16102008.html

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This is rubbish, he is comparing peak figures for the non-football games to peak firgures for other sports.

The peak figure for Cyprus was about 750,000 - case dismissed.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Anyone see Kevin Myers today comparing the Grand Slam win with a Norway win in cross-country skiing? Big for them but it'd go unnoticed in most of the sporting world. He has a point!

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Irish begrudging "journalism" at its best :rolleyes:
that comparison is ridiculous but myres is a twit so nothing better to be expected. rugby is actually huge in many countries that are not in the rugby limelight and coverage of our grand slam will be a lot wider than that clown would ever imagine

hes in the independant isnt he? they started the begrudgery as early as their sunday morning offering with a nonsense article about the grand slam not being that big deal

kevin myers:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by John83

I may have this wrong, but I think that journalists were only given access to an IRFU summary (which was published in full). This could have significantly distorted the perception of the report.

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Sounds like you know more about it than I do. Still, my contention is only that the IRFU isn't beyond criticism.

I'd add that as far as I can recall the FAI was rightly shafted by the government over eircom park which was actually largely underwritten by a major bank. I don't think the FAI has ever got a great deal from government.

Just adding some balance on the issue anyway, the FAI has rightly attracted criticism over the years too.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Peak figures for most of the Irish six nations games were over a million (1.1 v scotland, 1.2 v Wales) those are average figures I posted.

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Hmmm you posted a link to the England Rugby match which was not in the list of figures, that peaked at 9 million, seem I confused that with the Wales match figures.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Peak figures for most of the Irish six nations games were over a million (1.1 v scotland, 1.2 v Wales) those are average figures I posted.

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You did not. You have already been picked up on this.

You posted the constant figure for the Cyprus match. This is the number of people who watched the whole game on RTE without changing channels. The average for adults 15+ was higher than this not to mind overall viewers.

Indeed the peak figure is probably more realistic as it was for the analysis. I watch the champions league on Sky but watch the RTE panel.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

On top of that, it also allows the public to relate to our "stars" in a way that it's hard to with our UK football stars. The rubgy guys live here and work here. The footballers are away in the clouds!

As said above, the old bond between fan and team has been broken in football but it can be won back - the likes of Doyle and Stephen Hunt clearly have brought a sense of realism back into the fold.

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good old down to earth gaa country lads.

I don't think the IRFU is above critism - the failure to actually fully commit to making Connacht truly competitive would be a case in point for me.

However, the biggest difference is how the game is structured. It's all about feeding up from mini rugby to the international team. In football, the individual elements fight for their own identity and do their own thing. There's not a hope of the "nursery" clubs feeding into the League of Ireland, as that would go against their aim of getting players overseas and up on club house plaques. Indeed, even at that level, it's not about player development it's about trophies. You can blame the organisation all you want, but it's ultimately down to the FAI constituent parts that they can't get a truely coherent plan to develop both players for the international team and the League of Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

To the public theres nothing but shame and disappointment associated with the LOI.

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Really? Which public are you claiming to speak for?

The sell-out crowd that went to Tallaght two weeks ago and the sell-out crowd that will be there this Friday?

Everyone who witnessed any of the many LOI successes in Europe over the past 5 years?

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Are you really so deluded to believe that the typical soccer fan knows squat about the LOI? The LOI is probably on par with schools rugby in this country and thats even being generous, I can imagine Shannon and Garryowen getting higher crowds and probably more Tv time than the LOI.

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And if we ever have a successful football team it will be more by accident than design because of attitudes like this. As I said earlier, you can talk all the bullcrap you want about the organisations, it's the attitudes amongst the entire system that has Irish football in the place it is - there's no collective goal like there is in Rugby.

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Originally Posted by Macy

the biggest difference is how the game is structured. It's all about feeding up from mini rugby to the international team. In football, the individual elements fight for their own identity and do their own thing. There's not a hope of the "nursery" clubs feeding into the League of Ireland, as that would go against their aim of getting players overseas and up on club house plaques. Indeed, even at that level, it's not about player development it's about trophies. You can blame the organisation all you want, but it's ultimately down to the FAI constituent parts that they can't get a truely coherent plan to develop both players for the international team and the League of Ireland.

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Can the FAI change that though?

Under their current structure I don't think they could, and I don't see how the turkey's would vote for christmas to allow the change of structure!

(Putting on Bill O'Herlihy's voice) Let me put it to you Macy that if the abovementioned "Magners League" equivalent happened to ever be in place, with the best Irish clubs competing against better European competition, that this'd lead to these clubs being more successful financially and then these clubs would be more viable "targets" for the nursery clubs? That way we'd have the better Irish players at home in a similar manner to the rugby players (though obviously not the very best - they'd still go abroad) . The best Irish based talent would be concentrated rather than spread throughout a larger LOI and would be complemented by some imports.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Good post, I prefer the game of soccer to rugby but I'd support the rugby lads far more than the soccer team for the reason that the players and staff and much more worthy of my support. They are integrated in society, with the people and are a very good representation of the country. You get ROG's arrogance, Paulies confidence, Drico's mind games, Bowe singing in front of the crowd in comparison to the cringeworthy 2002 world cup homecoming where the whole team shuffled around nervously probably frustrated they weren't able to go straight to their actual home. Even several of the lads like Luke Fitzgerald can speak fluent Irish. All I get from the soccer team is an inferiority complex that should have been left behind half a century ago with some exceptions like Doyle and Hunt. But for every one of those theres 4 Andy O Briens or Alex Bruces.

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Worthy of your support because basically they live here is it?!? Oh right ya thats great criteria so it is. Funny how one of the examples you mentioned above Tommy Bowe earns his keep in Wales. I agree that the guys that live here are obviously going to be integrated in society more than our professional footballers in the UK. I also agree that some individuals in the Irish football havent exactly been easy to relate to, however take the likes of Clinton Morrison who had questionable Irish credentials but showed a real desire to play for us when he did and was a great character that the fans took to. Many more examples from the past, Houghton, Aldridge, McCarthy, McAteer etc etc etc.

Representation of their country, so are you trying to say that the likes of Given, Dunne, Keane etc are not good representatives of their country, even Kilbane who was born in the UK but is as good a representative of this country as any Irishman.

Who are these several lads that can speak "fluent" Irish? Luke F has decent Irish (Obviously you saw him on the news the other day), who else does???? Again i dont see this a valid criteria for a player been more "worthy of your support"

having been in cardiff last sat it reminded me of how our football occasions used to be. loyal, hardcore and colourful support was to be seen by both sides. the whole day in cardiff was a massive sporting occasion and this was all because of the match that was in it. if our footballers can achieve similar relative success over the next few months then football will be right up there again in the eyes of the nation.
unfortunately for the last few years our football team have underperformed and appeared to lack a little care and passion. the apparent current apathy towards our team by the general public will disappear with a few good results over the next few games

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Worthy of support because they represent my culture, interesting card to play since I'm sure you'd support the LOI if you weren't Irish. :rolleyes:

Bowe went to Ospreys because Ulster became total pants and with the wingers Leinster and Munster have he wouldn't get into their teams, what real choice did he have?

And yeah others do speak Irish on the rugby team, Paulie and Flannery were both educated in Gaeltachts actually. :D

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i dont know - but when i played football in college i had great fun, made good friends and was welcomed. tried to play on the rugby team - complete opposite - played by hobnobs that wouldnt talk to you - maybe its different now?

and what the hell does speaking irish prove? that they went to good schools?
a lot of gaelcoers are snobs too -

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Worthy of support because they represent my culture, interesting card to play since I'm sure you'd support the LOI if you weren't Irish. :rolleyes:

Bowe went to Ospreys because Ulster became total pants and with the wingers Leinster and Munster have he wouldn't get into their teams, what real choice did he have?

And yeah others do speak Irish on the rugby team, Paulie and Flannery were both educated in Gaeltachts actually. :D

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Paul O'Connell and Jerry Flannery were both educated in Limerick at Ard Scoil Ris and St. Munchins respectively. These are not in gaeltacht areas.

Considering you consistently use false facts how do you expect anybody to believe your analysis?

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Originally Posted by gspain

Paul O'Connell and Jerry Flannery were both educated in Limerick at Ard Scoil Ris and St. Munchins respectively. These are not in gaeltacht areas.

Considering you consistently use false facts how do you expect anybody to believe your analysis?

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Probably see's Ard Scoil Ris (Rice High School) and makes an assumption as our Ciaran is oft knwon to do.

His culture afterall is rugby players who live in his community. Do you recall his assessment of Keith Fahey? Keith was if I need to remind you part of St Patrick's Ath, a community football (soccer) club based in Inchicore, Dublin, a club totally intergrated with it's hinterland.

Why countenance his inaccurate drivel, feeding trolls results in them returning

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Gandhi was totally integrated with his hinterland too doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy a shirt with his name on it if said hinterland isn't my hinterland.

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PMSL, contradicting yourself again.

Great day last Saturday,but compare the National reaction now to Italia '90 ,was O Connell St deserted on Saturday at 5pm? was there scenes of unbridled public celebration on the streets? did 500,000 turnout to welcome the team home?...well no, no and about 18,000 actually.The rugby definitely gave us all a lift, as did Bernard dunne, but winning an annual tournament limited to teams from 4 juristinctions is well short of "unbelievable"

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

It'd be interesting as a bebo project to question every sports fan in UL and seeing how many of them even know what the name of the ground Limerick 37 play in. :D

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It would be.

Why don't you go and do that and report back here with your results when you're finished.

And get TV3 to capture screen shots and give an authentic voice-over.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Worthy of support because they represent my culture, interesting card to play since I'm sure you'd support the LOI if you weren't Irish. :rolleyes:

Bowe went to Ospreys because Ulster became total pants and with the wingers Leinster and Munster have he wouldn't get into their teams, what real choice did he have?

And yeah others do speak Irish on the rugby team, Paulie and Flannery were both educated in Gaeltachts actually. :D

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1 Whats your point?? If you feel the rugby team represent your culture more, fair enough but that doesnt mean that on an objective level they are more "Irish" or "representative of our country" than the football team.

2 Ok, well he did have the choice to stay with Ulster,they are arguably a team on the up now. Anyways your response no way justifys your original point.

3 you've already been proven wrong on this. I speak Irish too, big deal!! probably just as good as Flannery or O'C, but neither speak it fluently as you first said. In fact Stephen and Noel Hunt probably speak Irish as 'fluently' as those two. Anyways i didnt ask what players speak Irish, i asked for the players that speak "fluent" Irish as you stated there were. Either way, Its a bit of an irrelevant issue in the context of the debate.

In fairness to Ciaran, I think I may have been the first here just to throw out the remark that maybe people relate more to the rugby guys because they're based here primarily and aren't pampered superstar millionaires secondly.

It's not being "more representative" it's more being "easier to connect with". In consideration to responses like jbyrne's I'll very happily concede that it's probably not where they're based or even born, but rather how hard they try that keeps the connection. Either way, I think none of us can argue that the connection that used to exist between fan and team in football was broken some time back, though I think it's returning and will return quicker if success is seen.

With regard to Kilbane in particular I said a while back that I think he's the finest character of anyone to wear the green of his/our generation. I think so strongly about this I'm happy to repeat it, and also to extend it to the rugby code too. I just wish he was a better left back :)

I think its been a long time since we had a squad full of pride for jersey & this has nothing to do with where people are born, We have the likes of Stephen Ireland who don't want to play on the back the Roy Keane saga. The players are also basically only tourists in this country. Of course if they qualify for the World Cup that may all be forgotten but I can't see the buzz from previous WC coming back for a long time as seems people got this idea we could win it in & everything else is now just second best.

C'mon Ciaran, I threw you a lifebelt but you've just punctured it.

That post makes no sense. Whatsoever.

Personally, I feel like I relate to the likes of Robbie Keane, Shay Given, Kevin Kilbane, and Damien Duff much more than I ever will with most of the rugby team. I really don't get this idea that they are millionaire mercenaries who don't care about playing for their country. Watch any of the football team after a defeat in a big game and the disappointment is etched all over their faces.

I'm someone who came from a football supporting background but went to a rugby school because my parents felt I'd get a better education out of it. Rugby is the sport of choice for these schools because you can include fat kids, thin kids, slow kids in a team and everyone can play without having to demonstrate any great ability at that level. I just never got it - I was spending my Sundays at Milltown (showing my age now) and trained with the only football team in the school.

Ciaran made a point about TV coverage of rugby being more than for the LoI. That was always true going way back to the 80s when Sports Stadium on Saturday afternoons showed live rugby games with no attendances when Rovers were dominating the domestic landscape. It said more about the production staff in RTE sport than it did about the relative popularity of the sports and it still does.

I've been going to football Internationals since I was 6 and nothing else even comes close. I think that's just me - I'm a football person pure and simple and I think there are more committed football fans in the country that there are committed rugby fans. I have no doubt the event-junkies will switch to rugby for a while but I still agree with some of the other posters that qualification for South Africa would result in a much greater level of hysteria and genuine Irish pride than we've seen this week.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

2) My point is Bowe moved because he wanted to advance his career and wasnt good enough for Leinster or Munster. He left the country for a place in a decent team not for lack of patriotism or money or whatever else you're trying to claim.

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No doubt he did.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

The rest of them haven't lived in this country since they were children. I'd never question the Irishness of someone like Shay Given or Kevin Doyle but for every one of them there's an Andy O Brien, Stephen Carr and despite my fondness for him as player, as an Irishman "pride" is the last thing I'd associate with Stephen Ireland.

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And why did the above players leave Ireland as children? Was it not to advance their careers, for a place in a decent team?

I have no doubt that if there existed a competition in football where Irish club sides were as successful as Munster are in rugby (and the other provinces to their lesser extents) and with wages which were as competitive as Munster's are, we would see a lot more Irish football players based in this country.

Also, if the Heineken Cup competition was to end for some reason and Irish rugby was to go back to its somewhat impoverished AIL state while the rest of Europe continued as they are now, many Munster players would be off to more rewarding pastures.

'The average Irish person is very patriotic and we do follow our sport very well, no matter what sport it is. 'I certainly was a keen fan of the rugby on Saturday and was very proud to see them lifting the trophy. It sent tingles down my spine."

andrews comment, love that.

however not so sure about this:

'I am sure likewise they will be watching our two games and wishing us all the best.'

Rugby in Ireland was on an even keel with the rest of europe from the start, when it went from being amateur to professional, and the IRFU reacted well to this, by keeping the feeders to province. They kept all their players at home and paid the same wages relative to other countries i.e. England and France, they made a point of keeping their best players in Ireland, and it has paid off 10 fold. Irish teams have been very successful in the Heineken cup, their wages have been as good as any other country and their chances of playing top class international rugby have also increased. Their is no reason for the players to leave IReland, and the IRFU must be commended for getting their house in order from the very start. This has never been the case with soccer in this country, I can remember my uncle(almost 70 now) telling me of when he wrote to matt busby as a very young child asking him to come over and watch him and give him a trial(:D), point is its been a goal of all irish youngsters for generations to play abroad in England. The FAI were never on a level footing and for things to change at this stage it would be very difficult. Hopefully it will come about that a team(s) from the LOI will progress to CL proper and then the FAI will capitalise on this no-end.

I think it goes beyond the simple question of pride your jersey. Everyone playing for Ireland has pride, that can't be questioned.

Look, I feverishly support both soccer & rugby, but against the two sports I am slowly drifting away from soccer as a passion. Why? Because I am sick to the back teeth of the cheating, gamesmanship & physical / verbal abuse the referees get on a match by match basis. The concept of respect and decency has disappeared from the game - completely in some quarters - and it's hard for myself to respect and identify with a group of players who think nothing of abusing the laws for their own gain. Or manhandling the referee 'cos they can. Granted it's not widespread and the Irish players are as honest as they get these days in soccer, but it's hard to justify the attitudes. Talking about the "passion of the game" just can't cut it.

Contrast that with rugby, where you have men weighing in at 100Kg or so being told off like little schoolboys by a referee who commands the pitch. There's no cheating, abuse (hell there's no swearing as I recall Darcy getting threatened with a yellow card for his language) & the law is applied equally and ruthlessly. Even after the game you have citations to ensure some justice is done. It's just a different attitude altogether. Now granted, rugby's a potentially more dangerous sport so the laws have to be strict or else the injuries could be dreadful, but the on-pitch ref, linesmen & TV ref have genuine authority and are not afraid to show it. "Yes sir" chirps O'Driscoll when Ireland get blown up for a penalty. Does Robbie Keane display such composure (not picking on Keane specifically, just that he's a bit more mouthy of the Irish players).

The increased interest in rugby is showing more people the difference in attitudes between the two sports & soccer's coming off as a very petulant game full of whiners.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

Earns you patriotism points. There's probably more players in the rugby team who can hold a conversation as gaelige than there are in the soccer team who can spell "taoiseach" correctly.

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thats rubbish man - just proves they went to better (fee paying) schools where irish was taught well , and not with the odd punch like in my old school

as for football going down the pan (re another poster) - ie cheating and lack of respect - yes it is definitely - but to counter that why not then support grassroots football and the LOI - do somethiing about it then (and dont be a fairweather fan)
I like all sports but cant drop football as my passion - it cant be done, no matter what (even cheating italians winning the last world cup - i still follow the game)

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I meant gaelscoils, my bad. And I'm quoting Luke Fitzgerald on an interview he gave with newstalk this very morning as the source. :p

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Neither are gaelscoils. Just give up. You can't have any credibility left.

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Originally Posted by EastTerracer

I'm someone who came from a football supporting background but went to a rugby school because my parents felt I'd get a better education out of it. Rugby is the sport of choice for these schools because you can include fat kids, thin kids, slow kids in a team and everyone can play without having to demonstrate any great ability at that level. I just never got it - I was spending my Sundays at Milltown (showing my age now) and trained with the only football team in the school.

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I honestly think you could count every Rovers (or other LOI team) attendee from my school - Terenure - on the fingers of one hand. I was one of 3 that I knew of and it was a big school! Despite being a rugby school, Terenure was far "earthier" than the Dublin east coast rugby schools or Clongowes etc. I'd say Belvedere was similar.

My father's brother was a co-founder of Terenure RFC, my dad played for them and also played tennis for Ireland. He was told that if he left Terenure, a then junior club, for Lansdowne, he'd have been Ireland full back but he stayed. What happened me? I grew up instinctively with a love for football & golf! My dad would take me to Lakelands as a nipper and I'd turn my back to get a peek at the past pupils football team on the other pitches if they were playing!

I'm not knocking rubgy at all as I love watching it (except that the rugby crowd in UCD were awful) but I prefer the football. Not science, just instinct.

Stutts I think its what you feel more comfortable with to be honest, IM sure you may have been a bit rebellious also as a kid and therefore going against the crowd i.e. supporting soccer, was something you did....i could be wrong but just a guess. Especially if you went to DCU for dyslexics, then your experience of ruggerheads and the mounties that follow them (or fall for them maybe...) would have put you off greatly. Did it upset you they got all the girls and not you?! :P :D

I experienced both having a brother and neighbours who all played rugby but were down to earth(and going out with an 'anville, who introduced me to "that scene"), and having the soccer crowd who were just easy going country lads who knew no better i spose, but naturally prefered soccer.

As I said, just instinct. But yes, the rugger lads getting the good looking girls still rankles. I was left with the fat goths with purple lipstic and knee high docs.