FAI to look at return to winter football

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12/01/2009, 10:13 AM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Results in Europe were poor, now they're markedly improved.

Let's see what happens them now that the spending boom is over and clubs are going back part-time.
12/01/2009, 10:22 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Under the winter schedule, crowds were poor. They're still poor. Results in Europe were poor, now they're markedly improved. Weather postponements were relatively rare, now they're rarer still. Overall, the net outcome is a subtly positive one.

Crowds have gone down at many clubs, from an already low base. European results improvements can be attributed to more full time teams and a better standard of player as much as when the league plays. Weather postponements wouldn't be much different, except they'd be mid-season which should make rescheduling easier.

It might not be worth the hassle to change back, but summer football has failed on the criteria that were used to justify the change.
12/01/2009, 10:49 AM
Dodge

But have the crowds fallen because of summer football? Obviously no one ibn the FAI will do any research into it.
12/01/2009, 11:49 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

But have the crowds fallen because of summer football? Obviously no one ibn the FAI will do any research into it.

They were going to increase with summer football weren't they? Bottom line, no more changes without proper research, and tangibles to measure whether they have been a success (or not), please.
12/01/2009, 11:57 AM
Steve Bruce

The only thing I would say about Winter football is, you have had it for decades, what sort of research do you need when you should have vast first hand experience.

Personally I think you should stick to summer football. I don't think it is an altogether coincidence that standards have improved since you moved to Summer football.
12/01/2009, 12:08 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

The only thing I would say about Winter football is, you have had it for decades, what sort of research do you need when you should have vast first hand experience.

But crowds go up and down, to blame the summer for the drop in crowds is pure guess work.
12/01/2009, 12:18 PM
BulmersKid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

But crowds go up and down, to blame the summer for the drop in crowds is pure guess work.

When the switch to summer football was first made there was an increase in crowds. The promise of better pitches and as a result better football lured people to the games.

But I think some of the shenagins by some clubs, some members of clubs and the general scandals that have plagued the LOI over the last few years could be more to blame for the poor attendances.
12/01/2009, 12:19 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by BulmersKid

When the switch to summer football was first made there was an increase in crowds.

Don't think there was. Nothing major, or even anything like major.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

I don't think it is an altogether coincidence that standards have improved since you moved to Summer football.

It's also not a coincidence that standards have improved since clubs started racking up seven figure losses.

It'll be interesting to see how this year pans out so we can get some sort of idea as to which factor is the more important.
12/01/2009, 12:27 PM
tiktok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inside Man

I am 100% behind winter football. And i think 90% of regional teams fans would back this. [Longford, Athlone, Galway, Harps, Sligo Rovers, Monaghan, Limrick, Cork Waterford].

There's no chance that 90% of CCFC fans would want to go back to Winter Football.
12/01/2009, 1:30 PM
brianw82

The FAI should be sending people onto the streets on match days to get the public's opinions on this. Like:

Do you go to LOI games? y/n
If no, why not? list of reasons (don't like football, think LOI is crap, support EPL team, no speaka the eenglish, etc) , 1 = strongest reason for not going, 5 = mild inconvenience, but wouldn't put me off
12/01/2009, 1:41 PM
jinxy lilywhite

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianw82

The FAI should be sending people onto the streets on match days to get the public's opinions on this. Like:

Do you go to LOI games? y/n
If no, why not? list of reasons (don't like football, think LOI is crap, support EPL team, no speaka the eenglish, etc) , 1 = strongest reason for not going, 5 = mild inconvenience, but wouldn't put me off

dude that make too much sense for the FAI to be practical
12/01/2009, 1:43 PM
R�iteoir

You go back to winter football - you go back into direct competition with the game across the water - some crowds who turn up now in the summer season but follow an English/Scotch side during the winter (those who travel across to their games regularly) wouldn't turn up under the winter season as they're off on Friday nights travelling across to their English/Scottish team.

and in that case - there'll only be one winner
12/01/2009, 2:10 PM
citybone

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

Crowds have gone down at many clubs, from an already low base. European results improvements can be attributed to more full time teams and a better standard of player as much as when the league plays. Weather postponements wouldn't be much different, except they'd be mid-season which should make rescheduling easier.

It might not be worth the hassle to change back, but summer football has failed on the criteria that were used to justify the change.

we will see what effect part time football with a summer season will have over the next few years. but i don't think we will drop as low as the Irish league or welsh league. we are currently ranked 30th i dought we will drop lower than 35th we were ranked 40th back in 2004 before most of our good results happened.
12/01/2009, 2:18 PM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by citybone

we will see what effect part time football with a summer season will have over the next few years. but i don't think we will drop as low as the Irish league or welsh league. we are currently ranked 30th i dought we will drop lower than 35th we were ranked 40th back in 2004 before most of our good results happened.

To be honest, I am hoping that with things not going so well financially in the LOI, that maybe some of the talent in your league will spread out and fall into the Irish league a bit thus improving our league and closing the gap between the two.
12/01/2009, 2:29 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fintan Cassidy

I saw the clip - my impression was he was speaking in a personal capacity, not on behalf of the FAI

My out-take form the clip was that he was speaking in the vaguest possible terms about it : 'maybe we'll have a look at it again, but it needs a while to bed-in, so not for a few years yet'.

Which reading between the lines means they want to do fcuk all in a hurry to change Summer football.

The title of this thread is therefore tabloid-esque in its mis-interpretation of what was actually said.
12/01/2009, 2:31 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Let's see what happens them now that the spending boom is over and clubs are going back part-time.

There's plenty of evidence from elsewhere in Europe that in and of itself, moving to summer football improves European performances.

Obviously the money played a huge part as well in Ireland's case, but its hard to argue that a team won't perform better when its match fit, which teams that play in the winter season aren't.

Remember that as the European competitions have gotten bigger, the 1st qualifying rounds have gotten earlier and earlier. This year the Europa Cup will likely start in early July.
12/01/2009, 2:32 PM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by R�iteoir

You go back to winter football - you go back into direct competition with the game across the water - some crowds who turn up now in the summer season but follow an English/Scotch side during the winter (those who travel across to their games regularly) wouldn't turn up under the winter season as they're off on Friday nights travelling across to their English/Scottish team.

If my memory serves me correctly the figures showed a drop off in crowds during the period when the UK were in their off season, rather than an increase. Holidays/ summer activities seem to have more of an effect than whatever is on the telly...
12/01/2009, 2:45 PM
TheFingallian

Probably just my naivety showing through here but what about an early January start to the season? "New year, new season", and you get a mix of winter and summer.
12/01/2009, 2:48 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

There's plenty of evidence from elsewhere in Europe that in and of itself, moving to summer football improves European performances.

I don't disagree with this. What I do disagree with is people saying that a return to winter football will in and of itself worsen European performances, without taking into consideration at all the effect full-time football had. Our first good European season was in 2000/01 - before summer football, but when full-time football was just taking off. That's not a coincidence, in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

If my memory serves me correctly the figures showed a drop off in crowds during the period when the UK were in their off season, rather than an increase.

Seems that way from the attendances thread alright. Happens every year. Could argue the mid-season is the dullest part - no new start, no six pointers - but holidays do seem to have more effect than English day trippers. And we went up against Dublin GAA one time - never again. :o
12/01/2009, 3:56 PM
passerrby

I think this was done done before but i would estimate at least 15 clubs againest 7 for so dont see it been changed back
12/01/2009, 5:37 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by CelticTiger

I dont see it as a good thing in the current state of the game,i think we should wait a couple of years until we switch back.

The main reason is Facilities.We dont have the facilities to keep people warm at the moment.

So unless we have a vast improvment in this area then no i dont think we should go back to winter football at the moment

I'll always prefer the feel of winter football to summer football, but that bolded point by CelticTiger is the most sensible I've seen in regards to this.

Bottom line is most clubs can't move to winter football because the grounds aren't up to scratch. The casual fan won't want to stand in the rain at a ground that is partially covered. Couple that with how cold certain grounds are during the summer and you can only imagine what they'd be like in weather like this (I genuinely believe that being an away fan in Morton Stadium in December would lead to hypothermia).
12/01/2009, 6:40 PM
R�iteoir

I remember nearly getting frostbite whilst at a Home Farm - Cobh game in Whitehall about 10 years ago in the weekend between Christmas and New Year.

I do not want to have to go through that again
12/01/2009, 8:25 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by R�iteoir

You go back to winter football - you go back into direct competition with the game across the water - some crowds who turn up now in the summer season but follow an English/Scotch side during the winter (those who travel across to their games regularly) wouldn't turn up under the winter season as they're off on Friday nights travelling across to their English/Scottish team.

and in that case - there'll only be one winner

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

Bottom line is most clubs can't move to winter football because the grounds aren't up to scratch. The casual fan won't want to stand in the rain at a ground that is partially covered. Couple that with how cold certain grounds are during the summer and you can only imagine what they'd be like in weather like this (I genuinely believe that being an away fan in Morton Stadium in December would lead to hypothermia).

The thing with Winter football is there are no plus points for moving back to it ...... think about it. You cant cite 'i used to love the bitter cold with my mates at Christmas' .... that is NOT viable, it serves no purpose other than the romantic musings of a few fans. Will it help us get more punters in the gates, NO ...... so the point of the whole exercise, theres none ...... its completely pointless moving back.

How is this for ya ...... If the winter football brigade want to move back then they should be made prove to us what the benefits are and provide near conclusive proof for doing so. What ever about the move to summer football, its a total hair brained idea to now want to move back.

There is no benefit in moving back ...... SO DONT !!
12/01/2009, 8:52 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

The thing with Winter football is there are no plus points for moving back to it ...... think about it. You cant cite 'i used to love the bitter cold with my mates at Christmas' .... that is NOT viable, it serves no purpose other than the romantic musings of a few fans. Will it help us get more punters in the gates, NO ...... so the point of the whole exercise, theres none ...... its completely pointless moving back.

How is this for ya ...... If the winter football brigade want to move back then they should be made prove to us what the benefits are and provide near conclusive proof for doing so. What ever about the move to summer football, its a total hair brained idea to now want to move back.

There is no benefit in moving back ...... SO DONT !!

There is a benefit to winter football A Face.

It provides a convenient option for those frantically searching for silver bullets for the predicament of Irish football.

It would be change, and change is action, and action is what we MUST see - right...?
12/01/2009, 9:22 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

There is a benefit to winter football A Face.

It provides a convenient option for those frantically searching for silver bullets for the predicament of Irish football.

It would be change, and change is action, and action is what we MUST see - right...?

Do you know, with all the crap going on in the league over the last while i personally am sick to the back teeth with that . It rings so hollow at this stage.

I know what you're saying about 'action' and it excusing the lack of progress. And whats worse is the Winter Football Brigade claiming it will make a difference and throw the toys from the pram. The fact is we have tried winter football, and we have tried summer and summer has had more benefits even if its still bad.

Man i swear to god if we have to endure chairmen and club officials pointing at this issue any more as a 'get out clause' while there are glaringly basic issues with their own clubs being ignored i'm gonna lose the rag.
12/01/2009, 9:42 PM
HarpoJoyce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

I'll always prefer the feel of winter football to summer football, but that bolded point by CelticTiger is the most sensible I've seen in regards to this.

Bottom line is most clubs can't move to winter football because the grounds aren't up to scratch. The casual fan won't want to stand in the rain at a ground that is partially covered. Couple that with how cold certain grounds are during the summer and you can only imagine what they'd be like in weather like this (I genuinely believe that being an away fan in Morton Stadium in December would lead to hypothermia).

I was an away supporter there last December. I stayed in the clubhouse bar and re-read the 'Greatest Mile' articles to delay coming out in the second half.
Except The Billy Morton is a fine stadium.

I approve of Summer football but some of the pro-Summer crowd are a little disingenous on this thread and present an arguement which would be solved with a mid-season break in Winter.
12/01/2009, 10:07 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

It provides a convenient option for those frantically searching for silver bullets for the predicament of Irish football.

To be fair, I don't think anybody has portrayed it as a silver bullet for LOI football. Most who favour it see it as more anthentic than summer football, and to be honest, cold winter nights at a football game does have a nice (if bloody freezing) ring to it.

But as a Face has said, there would need to be real reasons to change back, not just guesswork and change for change's sake (even if that was why we changed to summer football in the first place).

I'm wondering if the change to summer football has been the reason for improvement in European results, or if it is the full-time football played by the clubs in Europe which has lead to this. It will be interesting to see European results next season, and how they will compare to last season.
12/01/2009, 10:18 PM
superfrank

Bray have had their longest stay in the Premier since the switch to summer football and haven't been relegated (yet). I prefer going to matches in the summer. It's much better than freezing your balls off in winter. The pitches seem to be in a better condition.

The European runs are surely another good reason for all the Euro fanatics out there.
12/01/2009, 11:37 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

To be fair, I don't think anybody has portrayed it as a silver bullet for LOI football. Most who favour it see it as more anthentic than summer football, and to be honest, cold winter nights at a football game does have a nice (if bloody freezing) ring to it.

What is so 'authentic' about freezing yer balls off at a game of football ...?!? :confused:

Have mediteranean countries been deprived the allure of football in its authentic form all this time for want of a few blizzards and multiple match postponements ?

Being molested by priests at an Irish school would make that experience more 'authentic' too...
13/01/2009, 12:03 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

Couple that with how cold certain grounds are during the summer and you can only imagine what they'd be like in weather like this (I genuinely believe that being an away fan in Morton Stadium in December would lead to hypothermia).

I stood on the hill behind the goal at Morton for two years as a home fan. It also hosted the darkest finish to a game (Us-Bray December 2000) I've ever seen.

Those championing the return to winter (mainly Sligo Rovers fans) need only look at what crowds winter football is attracting across the border. If they need further convincing, look at the attendances at Scottish lower league games every week.

One other thing. Just how many games would have got the go ahead last weekend? Considering that 2 EPL games with all their facilities didn't, I guess not too many.
13/01/2009, 7:31 AM
stann

Quote:

Originally Posted by passerrby

I think this was done done before but i would estimate at least 15 clubs againest 7 for so dont see it been changed back

Was done a couple of times before I think, both times with the winter vote comprising mainly of a couple of malcontents, a couple of ball-hoppers, and the Sligo fans. :D
13/01/2009, 9:01 AM
A face

So Sligo Rovers fans love winter, thats something which was not obvious to me before now.

Should i move this thread to the Sligo Rovers section at any stage? :p
13/01/2009, 9:29 AM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

What is so 'authentic' about freezing yer balls off at a game of football ...?!? :confused:

Because that's the way Irish people watched LOI for decades. Freezing their balls off in winter.
I think that for some people (not including me) this history of playing winter football brings about a feeling of 'that's the way football should be' .
13/01/2009, 9:39 AM
bigmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr A

Summer football does not necessarily mean better pitches since you lose the time of year when you can do most work on them.

Sounds logical enough, but can you name a LoI pitch that was better when we played in the winter?
13/01/2009, 10:06 AM
Macy

A Face, I don't see too many saying that winter football will be the silver bullet, but summer football hasn't worked. For all the talk of european results being the key, they've done bugger all for the league or the clubs involved. Indeed of the 3 that genuinely did well in the summer era, 2 have been through examinership (1 of which may not come out) and 1 got it's self in a terrible state and was relegated. If that's progress you can bloody keep it. Playing surfaces increasing the standard of play and european results can be put down to the standard of player as much as anything to do with when we play.

Any decisions the league makes going forward must be done on the basis of proper research and proper measurable outcomes. But summer football as an experiment hasn't worked.
13/01/2009, 10:24 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Because that's the way Irish people watched LOI for decades. Freezing their balls off in winter.
I think that for some people (not including me) this history of playing winter football brings about a feeling of 'that's the way football should be' .

So should public schooling also involve eclesiastical sodomy - as that's the way it used to be for decades in Ireland.....? :confused:

Just because something used to happen doesn't automatically make it desireable. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....
13/01/2009, 10:36 AM
Rovers Maniac

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So should public schooling also involve eclesiastical sodomy - as that's the way it used to be for decades in Ireland.....? :confused:

Just because something used to happen doesn't automatically make it desireable. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....

I am glad you have no power what so ever ! :D
13/01/2009, 10:38 AM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

A Face, I don't see too many saying that winter football will be the silver bullet, but summer football hasn't worked.

Yeah, but we know what you're getting at .... the silver bullet claim still stands :p

Quote:

For all the talk of european results being the key, they've done bugger all for the league or the clubs involved.

Yes it has, the football, to my mind has been a better quality, and Euro results have helped bring some players back to the LOI. I know for a fact that Colin Healy wouldn't have come back if he didn't have a benchmark of Euro results to encourage him to do so.

So even for that alone, its worth having summer football.

Quote:

Indeed of the 3 that genuinely did well in the summer era, 2 have been through examinership (1 of which may not come out) and 1 got it's self in a terrible state and was relegated. If that's progress you can bloody keep it.

The seasons had nothing to do with bad management and to claim it does have anything to do with it blows you argument completely out of the water.

Quote:

Playing surfaces increasing the standard of play and european results can be put down to the standard of player as much as anything to do with when we play.

No way, there is not a chance in hell i am buying that. The fact we are in the middle of the season for Euro games may or may not help us ..... come off the stage. Sorry now Macy but you cant be having that. Look at the northern teams, players on holidays etc. for their games.

Quote:

Any decisions the league makes going forward must be done on the basis of proper research and proper measurable outcomes. But summer football as an experiment hasn't worked.

Argument for and against on the outcome of summer football but a return to Winter i would claim would damage the league. There is no way we need to be doing anything that damages the league.
13/01/2009, 10:42 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

No way, there is not a chance in hell i am buying that. The fact we are in the middle of the season for Euro games may or may not help us ..... come off the stage. Sorry now Macy but you cant be having that. Look at the northern teams, players on holidays etc. for their games.

I think LoI clubs/ players always took Europe more seriously. I don't recall players being on holiday being an issue with the winter season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

Argument for and against on the outcome of summer football but a return to Winter i would claim would damage the league. There is no way we need to be doing anything that damages the league.

Surely proper research would show what would or wouldn't damage the league? I think it'd be wrong to preempt any research one way or another. I'd have very low confidence of the proper research ever being done, however.
13/01/2009, 10:46 AM
GuisaSaigon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inside Man

I am 100% behind winter football. And i think 90% of regional teams fans would back this. [Longford, Athlone, Galway, Harps, Sligo Rovers, Monaghan, Limrick, Cork Waterford]

Don't think so. Been going to games since 1986 and I have no doubt that a move back to winter football would do nothing but harm the league. Standing in Terryland in the middle of July is cold and miserable enough, I have no desire to be put through that suffering in January!
The only club I've really noticed moaning about this is Shligo. Wasn't their chairman blaming crap attendance figures on mothers bringing their kids to the beach?

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