I don't see how belonging to the BNP is any more reprehensible than being a member of Sinn Fein. At least the BNP's brand of violent nationalism is largely aspirational.
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I don't see how belonging to the BNP is any more reprehensible than being a member of Sinn Fein. At least the BNP's brand of violent nationalism is largely aspirational.
I agree with you. I felt the reason there wasnn't a far right party in this country was because of the policies of Sinn Fein.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Anyway, BNP have prettier colours to chose from too.
But it was only an element of skinheads that were racist as well - there were as many left wing anti-fascist skinheads, and a lot of skinheads were apolitical. Far too many generalisations, and dare I say clichés, bennocelt....Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
So we don't have a far right party because of the presence of what would be considered (at least until recently) as a far left one?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
you would be surprisedQuote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
i remember reading that Nick Griffin often took holidays in Kerry?
And many BNP members appear to have strong Irish links - but from what I can see they seem to think of Ireland as part of the great white Great Britain - just that we haven't come around to that idea yet - a bit like what we think of the Protestants up north - they don't know they are Irish yet - bless em!
was two guys from Westmeath and two Polish trying to set up a far right org last year - got caught in the Wicklow mountains !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Funny how the Poles are into all this stuff - considering the BNP seem to be pretty tough on them in Britain and considering their history.
Would love to meet those two muppets though - one was from Moate - must be a real hot bed of fascism -
sure the poles were nearly as bad as the nazis in their attitudes towards the jews.
Not as bad obviously but the BNP are still pretty reprehensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Care to elaborateQuote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
It was all the punk skinhead poles fault...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Few countries had a particularly good attitude to Jews back then. I'm guessing he's implying that mainstream Polish society wasn't entirely unhappy to see the ranks of their Jewish fellow citizens thinned out. That being the case the Poles would not have been at all unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
It's believed for example that the Nazis in occupied France would periodically give lists of people they wanted rounded up (often Jews and often never seen again) to the French gendarmerie who then frequently exceeded these quotas.
As for the BNP, I dislike them because they pander to the worst instincts in people. I know some really good people who've told me they'd vote for them given a chance and I despair of it. But parties like the BNP lure them in because they peddle easy answers ...someone to blame and someone to kiss it all better.
We don't really have a comparable political institution here in Ireland ...Youth Defence and whatever else Justin and the Nic Mathunas are calling themselves these days would be the closest but these wingnuts tend to espouse a similar back of a cornflakes box Republicanism as Republican Sinn Fein or the IRSP ...this in turn frustates alliances with UK right wingers like the BNP as their support would have more than a smattering of sympathisers for Loyalist paramilitarism.
as per lionel. this attitude seems to be still prevalent - most of the foreigners i work with (who are admittedly at the lower end of the financial and education lists) are shocking in their right wing conservatism and anti-semitism.
I've had one encounter with a BNP Nazi scumbag (I was on a 3 day training course and we all had a few pints each night) and he had the cheek to come out with this outlandish statement to a group of Irish persons who had the misfortune to attend said course - "we used to hate your sort, but at least your the same colour as me so you cannot be all that bad". He couldn't handle his drink and as the night progressed he got worse. He had a major hard on for Jews and them taking over the UK + blamed them for assassinating JFK and Princess Di? :confused::confused: we tried to reason with him, I did well to stop myself from chinning the nasty piece of work and he never made it in on that final day.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Anybody remember Sam Hamann (ex Wimbledon chairman) spouting racist ****** at some Cardiff hooligan meet?! Might have been panorma or some other undercover investigation from a journalist.
My brother swears this is true.
Weedy looking 5ft 8 BNP member goes into a pub in west London and wants to hand out leaflets "We're trying to get rid of the wogs, pakis and paddys". A much largers barman comes out and says "I'm from Dublin, what have you got to say about that" "I'm sorrry me mother is from Mayo don't hurt me".
Any of the Members better take care where they park their cars!:eek:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7741270.stm
I can't see the BNP making the type of inroads in Britain the far right are making in Austria/regions of Germany/ and Japan. And in Italy the Fair Right are seen as a legitimate political grouping. When I lived in west London in the 80's I worked with a group of girls of Caribbean descent. As I was travelling around Europe going to away games having a great time the Black girls really feared travelling around mainland Europe.
Have you stopped travelling? Do they feel safe now? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
The problem with vigilante actions is that like incident in Bradford that people are misidentified or caught in the crossfire.
There will always be racists so possibly not a bad thing that the BNP exist as at least can find them all in the one place.
I was travelling. They unfortunately did not travel. For some reason sleeping on sidewalks in Frankfurt did not appeal to them. I agree with your point about the BNP existing. Underground militant/far righter groups much more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
While I don't agree with SF type nationalism or nationalism of any kind, it at least was (lets be honest, its past tense now in reality, like their left credentials) qualified by progressive anti-imperialism. The BNP type of Nationalism is based on racial supremacy, a type of apartheid and a fascist/corporatist state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
BNP members and supporters have also been involved for years in the Redwatch website, where pictures and personal details of anyone who dared to criticise them along with left wing activists, gay rights activists and anyone else they didn't like were posted with the words "Remember places, traitors' faces, they'll all pay for their crimes." The BNP are not just nationalist, they are Fascist knuckle dragging thugs (despite their attempts at improving their image - its all cosmetic).
You have to remember that we're not dealing with the cream of the intellectual crop here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
While I don't agree with SF type nationalism or nationalism of any kind, it at least was (lets be honest, its past tense now in reality, like their left credentials) qualified by progressive anti-imperialism. The BNP type of Nationalism is based on racial supremacy, a type of apartheid and a fascist/corporatist state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
BNP members and supporters have also been involved for years in the Redwatch website, where pictures and personal details of anyone who dared to criticise them along with left wing activists, gay rights activists and anyone else they didn't like were posted with the words "Remember places, traitors' faces, they'll all pay for their crimes." The BNP are not just nationalist, they are Fascist knuckle dragging thugs (despite their attempts at improving their image - its all cosmetic).
BNP Hypocrisy in the spotlight
Get off the stage BP, most Sinn Fein "activists" (I'm sure you've met as many as I have) wouldn't know the difference between Marx & Engels and Marks & Spencer. Their ideology is based on racial antagonism and ethnic nationalism. And the fact that they've been complicit in the murders of so many people makes them functionally worse by orders of magnitude to the BNP.
I'm not going to defend SF at all but its just plain wrong to put them in the same bracket as fascists. PIRA restricted the majority of their killings to security forces of a nation they were at war with (Numbers of sectarian killings are proportionally very low when compared with the loyalists) and the type of Ireland that SF claimed they wanted before they sold out wasn't one where people would be discriminated against on the basis of race. Yes I have met many SF members and they are a diverse lot. Some as you say haven't a clue but I've known ones who genuinely believed in Socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
And a debate in UCD was broken up by some anti-fascist group. This could go around in circles forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Well, that's OK then.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
What were they doing in a nationalist party then? Socialism and nationalism are incompatible. PIRA had no mandate to go to war with anyone.
Selective quoting is unfair and changes the meaning of my post. As for the debate broken up by Antifa? Was that the Irving one? If so, justified. He's an unabashed Nazi organiser and proven liar who shouldn't be given a platform. If people want to spout ill informed racist views, let them and we'll argue against them but if you start trying to organise white supremacist groups who's purpose is to violently target people on the basis of race then you will be stopped in your tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
The BNP was infiltrated by all sorts of liberal pinko filth years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I hear they hardly even beat people up anymore.
Isn't it amazing how socialists are so darn facist sometimes?? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Or break up the debate.........Quote:
If people want to spout ill informed racist views, let them and we'll argue against them
I agree, but not everyone does. If you remember the old An Phoblacht masthead it read "For a thirty two county Socialist Republic". Some people confuse the quite correct policy of self-determination with nationalism and therefore pursue a political dead end by fusing nationalism and socialism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
How do you explain the fact that people were queueing up to join in the late 60's/early 70's? Their mandate as it were, was the call from the Catholic working class communities to defend them against loyalist pogroms and state repression. Their war might have been futile, it may have been a tactical dead end, but there was widespread support for it. One of my earliest political memories was the hungerstrikes and I remember the widespread support the hunger-strikers had down here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
I always considered politics to be horse-shoe shaped. If you go far around one way you'll meet some lads who went the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
I hark back to a more innocent time when right and left wing referred to economic systems.
I'm not facist. When I'm drunk especially, faces cease to matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Its still what its about but Fascists want to violently wipe out the left, divide workers along racial lines and crush democratic rights. Stopping them from organising is a duty for any Socialist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
Where as socialists want to attack university debates and conduct sectarian killings. I recommend you look further into my horse shoe theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
What else do Socialists do??Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
There's a reason why the BNP are winning council seats all over England and the far left are a laughing stock.
Er, what? Thats the dumbest post ever on foot.ie and thats saying something!Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
No arguments there. Which is why fighting fascism has to be primarily about building a strong left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
I bow to your superior intellect.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Well played.
Need me to spell it out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
1. To equate shutting down a debate where an invited guest's intention is to organise fascists to wipe out democratic rights, persecute people on the basis of race and sexuality, with the actual attempt to perpetrate those crimes is ludicrous. Its like saying someone trying to stop drug dealers selling in their neighborhood is as bad as the drug dealer.
2. What Socialists want to conduct sectarian killings? Is it all Socialists? Were the PIRA exlicitly socialist and did I say they were? Did I not agree that nationalism and socialism are mutually exclusive?
yeah yeah but heh we are a republic now - funny how the English just handed it to us - oh no wait............:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Sf dont tend to do well in south dublin anyway;)
What do they want, our everlasting thanks? Tell it to the family of men like Patsy Gillespie. Not often I agree with Sheridan, but I'm four square behind him on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
No and I didn't say it was right, I was just pointing out the lunacy of equating them with the BNP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
The partial quote is a little unfair Maribor. I'm sure from what he's said that BP in no way condones the activities of the IRA in any of it's guises. Nor do I. I think the distinction he is making is between two groups, two ideaologys actually, where one group see themselves as freedom fighters attempting to subvert an illegitimate state, an occupying force etc and the other see themselves as a watchdog and as defenders of a state that they claim is being undermined from within by assorted auslanders and their treasonous homegrown liberal helpers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
The BNP may not be involved in an orchestrated violent campaign but make no mistake -the logical consequence of implementing their policies is violence and intimidation. No Asian, no Afro-Carribean, no Bangladeshi, indeed no Paddy of British birth is going to conclude that the BNPs 'Homeward Bound' manifesto is for them. They're all going to have to be 'Persuaded' that it's in their interests to go pack their gear.