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agree 110% and I'm sure we all would.... but would a Glasgow supporter prefer the same thing?Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Boll0xs to all this anyway - clubs are far more important than international teams.... Far more important to me that Town win the Cup Final than Ireland winning last Saturday...
And boll0xs to that. Another one with a Glasgow obsession.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Xlex
agree 110% and I'm sure we all would.... but would a Glasgow supporter prefer the same thing?
Country first, every time. Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).
Any muppet can support the national team 6/7 times a year - club football's week in week out is what it's all about....Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
Country first, every time. Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).
Actually missed the obvious.... What is this thread about? Mercenaries like Morrison, Houghton etc etc.... LOL...Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).
Any mercenary can play for your country, once they have the right grandparents....
What you are talking about is club football where hooliganism is watered down.
And where do u think all this so-called hard cases start??
Lopez, we can all list incidents involving fans of teams. I couldnt even count how many times ppl in Ireland have had a go at me (both physically and verbally) for choosing to support England. I have been bottled and stabbed by Irish fans, got a good kicking off some Germans, have been chased by Chelsea and Man Utd fans - the list goes on. But my point on 'average' fans, which you chose to take exception to, is still valid - its only 1% or 2% of fans who are idiots, its the 98% that make up the average, football loving, passionate fans.
Your entire list of events seem to be trying to prove that these so-called English fans are not as 'hard' as the Irish fans e.g. they got a bit of a pasting; they are not as tough as in the books; if there were a few more Paddy builders there.
Plus I did like the way that you refer to my Irish mates who choose to support England as 'Irish' which is quite ironic given the topic of this thread........ Do you think that in Spain, because you support Ireland, they refer to you as 'Spanish'??
Anyhow I dont wish to turn this into an English v Irish debate. On the general point I think that, with the grandparents rule, you will always get chancers and u will always unearth one or two genuine gems. If the rule is there exploit it and hope that the players perform for you regardless of whether they can dance the Siege of Ennis or recite a passage from Peig.
:D
Er, that's exactly what does happen MOST of the time, or do you think I and the some of the others that have posted on this thread put on an Irish accent when we follow Ireland.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by gustavo
Because of course if a guy with an english accent went in amongst our fans as a mere anthropological experiment at an ireland match he would be made to feel most welcome
Never seen it done, but there was a bloke in Lisbon in 2000 who had an England shirt with the Butchers' apron in my section that survived unscathed physically and verbally. I also saw a big St George's flag in the Irish section in Georgia. Given the choice between wearing a Rangers shirt at an Ireland game and an Ireland shirt at an England game, I'd take my chances with the Rangers shirt.Quote:
Originally posted by gustavo
especially if he produced a rangers shirt cos he heard that the irish have a great love for some team in glasgow
My entire list of events aims to prove that, ONE, your figure of the odd 1 to 2% of England fans are hooligans is complete cojones, and TWO, that despite an industry in printing books portraying themselves out to be the hardest, bravest and indeed the most honourable hooligans in Europe, in reality 99% of them are cowards.Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Your entire list of events seem to be trying to prove that these so-called English fans are not as 'hard' as the Irish fans e.g. they got a bit of a pasting; they are not as tough as in the books; if there were a few more Paddy builders there.
Oh you did! You said these were Irish born English fans, and expect me to assume that because they were born in Ireland they were Irish. I guess you think that as I was born in England I am English. You probably think a dog born in a barn is a horse. The quotation marks referred to how Neolithic man would take to them. No offence was intended to your mates.Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Plus I did like the way that you refer to my Irish mates who choose to support England as 'Irish' which is quite ironic given the topic of this thread
After this quote, however, you replied that they were merely soccer tourists. Perhaps if you said that at the beginning, I would have discarded the quotation marks.
I wasn't born in Spain and never lived there, so I'm confused to what the relation of this has got to do with me describing your mates 'Irish' for being born in one country and supporting another, without me knowing their opinion of and relationship with viz a viz their country of birth. For instance do they have dual citizenship? (which for the record I don't possess - even though I'm entitled to three nationalities - so there is no need for any misunderstanding about my nationality).;)Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Do you think that in Spain, because you support Ireland, they refer to you as 'Spanish'??
You're missing the obvious and you don't even see the contradiction in what you're saying. The important part of your statement above is "right grandparents". Any mercenary can play for your club regardless of background or history. Why would anyone support these guys more than the national team.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Any mercenary can play for your country, once they have the right grandparents....
Every club footballer you support would move given a better offer. A decision to play for your country is permanent and irreversible.
Read back over the dicussion, for some international football is just a carreer move.... Not good enough for england, sure it's okay you can get you bonus because of one grandparent..... btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse....Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
Every club footballer you support would move given a better offer. A decision to play for your country is permanent and irreversible.
You said these were Irish born English fans, and expect me to assume that because they were born in Ireland they were Irish. I guess you think that as I was born in England I am English. You probably think a dog born in a barn is a horse.
Lopez, apologies for the confusion (i didnt know ur relationship with spain and was just taking a wild guess..:) ).
The original point was that there are Irish fans who also support England (or at least thats what it was taken as). All but two of the lads are Irish born but have either one or two English parents - thus they feel comfortable following both teams. Two of us are similar except we were born in England.
Not sure what the soccer tourists refers to (??)
As for the born in a stable argument surely that is what this thread is about?? Some people do think they should be horses and some people think they should be dogs!!! (Then again some ppl think they are dorses!!! Which is where it gets too
confusing....:D )
And then of course there's the anthem test, David Connolly and Kevin Kilbane sang the national anthem last week, Ian Harte and Colin Healy either couldn't be arsed because they're too cool for that or else they just don't know it. Does this make Connolly and Kilbane more Irish than the two wannabe male models? (Though truth be told I wish Healy was ineligable :))
btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse.... [/B][/QUOTE]
How can you consider your club before your country?What you refer to above maybe a very small percentage of international footballers interests but in club football there is affinity to nothing but a good contract.Y
btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse.... [/B][/QUOTE]
How can you consider your club before your country?What you refer to above maybe a very small percentage of international footballers interests but in club football there is affinity to nothing but a good contract.Y
how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.
ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me
And therein lies the rub. For many of us who are second-generation Irish, we tend to identify more with the country as a whole than any one specific part. It makes sense; we may have parents from different parts of the country (in my case east county Galway and west county Sligo) or just one Irish parent and one from elsewhere. As such, in my own case I follow eircom League football in general, but have no loyalty to one particular team. I've been to Terryland Park, St. Mel's and the Showgrounds on several occasions in each case but have never come away having undergone a Pauline conversion to United, Town or Rovers. Much as I might have liked to... ;)Quote:
Originally posted by max power
how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.
ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me
And - it's probably the second-generation thing again - in spite of the fact that I am a Celtic man through and through, I would rather Ireland win the European Championship (or the World Cup) than Celtic win the Champions League. So it's country before club every time.
:D PP
as i said paddy each to his own , but we are off topic now and the bones is when is an irish man an irish man. does a little book with Eire in the front of it and your picture on the inside make you irish, is it where you were born ,is it your mind set, is it your background, is it your love of the colour green or is it just an easy way to get international football for some people ????
There would be quite a large section of the team if you tke into account that many of the invaders of Ireland like the Vikings, Normans and even English settled in Ireland and married Irishwomen becoming as Irish as the Irish themselves.Quote:
Originally posted by thecorner
vey interesting indeed
an article saturday morning with brian kerr
"we have a great chance of beating the swiss,cos our forefathers were always up for a batlle when our country was been invaded and it has been passed down family traditions thru the years"
"our players will battle like they did"
one thing u forgot brian
some of our team were descendants of the w@nkers that invaded us
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally posted by max power
how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.
ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me
i like this answer
go on max power.......give 'em hell;)
Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Read back over the dicussion, for some international football is just a carreer move.... Not good enough for england, sure it's okay you can get you bonus because of one grandparent..... btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse....
You're really not being consistent. You say for some international football is just a career move. This is supposed to be an argument for club before country?
Well I' ve got some news for you. For ALL (not some) club football is a career move. Every single footballer you so passionately support would move away from your beloved club given half a chance. Using your own logic you should support country before club every time.
BTW, Saints will win the cup;)
Paddy, it's not a second generation thing. I'm first generation and feel the same way. Country first, every time.Quote:
Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
And therein lies the rub. For many of us who are second-generation Irish, we tend to identify more with the country as a whole than any one specific part. It makes sense; we may have parents from different parts of the country (in my case east county Galway and west county Sligo) or just one Irish parent and one from elsewhere. As such, in my own case I follow eircom League football in general, but have no loyalty to one particular team. I've been to Terryland Park, St. Mel's and the Showgrounds on several occasions in each case but have never come away having undergone a Pauline conversion to United, Town or Rovers. Much as I might have liked to... ;)
And - it's probably the second-generation thing again - in spite of the fact that I am a Celtic man through and through, I would rather Ireland win the European Championship (or the World Cup) than Celtic win the Champions League. So it's country before club every time.
:D PP
I remmeber the English fans in Lisbon - a few came in the back in their white shirts. they didn't come to any harm but they must have been bemused at some of the pro-german chants. (Germans won at Wembley earlier i nthe day). I assume they were ex pats.
Also had a Leeds fan in his Leeds shirt who kept singing "Ian Harte Harte Harte" everytime he touched the ball sitting behind me.
I wore my Irish shirt in Osaka at the England v Nigeria game mixed in with england fans and there was no problem. also put up a tricolour.
No that was a response to your arguement....Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
You're really not being consistent. You say for some international football is just a career move. This is supposed to be an argument for club before country?
But the club will still be there and I'll still be there, and it will still mean more to me than how good, bad or indifferent the international team is.....Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
Well I' ve got some news for you. For ALL (not some) club football is a career move. Every single footballer you so passionately support would move away from your beloved club given half a chance. Using your own logic you should support country before club every time.
Probably, by 5-0 I predict...Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
BTW, Saints will win the cup;)
So what's your arguement?Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
No that was a response to your arguement.
Not much point in a football club without footballers really. The club may or may not still be there. They have been known to disappear. Your country will still be there however.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
But the club will still be there and I'll still be there, and it will still mean more to me than how good, bad or indifferent the international team is......
Now you're making some sense.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Probably, by 5-0 I predict...
Damn straight.I think it's just these Longford lads who think otherwise,mmm..maybe Cork too:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Greenbod
Paddy, it's not a second generation thing. I'm first generation and feel the same way. Country first, every time.
You can add me to that list too.Quote:
Originally posted by Beavis
Damn straight.I think it's just these Longford lads who think otherwise,mmm..maybe Cork too:rolleyes:
I love the country, speak the language, try to catch Deportivo (mother's home town team) in Europe and Spain - thanx to Mr O'Leary and his airline - and hope Spain go on to win Euro 2004, but am I Spanish? 'Fraid no. Not 100% Irish either.Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Lopez, apologies for the confusion (i didnt know ur relationship with spain and was just taking a wild guess..:) ).
Me and you are dorses (love the analogy), which is something I pointed out about Holland. He's half English, so why shouldn't he stand and sing its anthem.Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
The original point was that there are Irish fans who also support England (or at least thats what it was taken as). All but two of the lads are Irish born but have either one or two English parents - thus they feel comfortable following both teams. Two of us are similar except we were born in England.
As for the born in a stable argument surely that is what this thread is about?? Some people do think they should be horses and some people think they should be dogs!!! (Then again some ppl think they are dorses!!! Which is where it gets too
confusing....:D )
I do sympathise with you. It's easier being an Irish fan in England than an England fan in Ireland. Most of us 2G have had trouble with the resident Irish. I had a punch up and took a beating before the 97 game in Cardiff which made the Gerry Ryan (I think) show. But this IS the 1% because most of the 1G know the score or couldn't care less. Many would support England after Ireland aswell.
But I don't take back what I said about the English support. I've never met many England fans socially but one at work, from the late 1980s, just couldn't hack it anymore. Nor could I with Ireland if every game was a warzone. For every odd England or Russia away game thankfully there are loads of what we got in Switzerland. There is a great danger of England being banned (I can't see a trouble free 2004) yet all the the English can do is blame foreign policing or foreign fans, when that isn't where the problem lies. The fiasco over the England Travel Club, in which hooligans were members, showed this.
It's not anti-English on my part. I'm indifferent to them in other sports, like this month's Rugby World Cup. I also live here, so I must find something appealing about the place.
Soccer tourism is going to watch football for the sake of it (at World Cup Finals, other games...if you have the money), which I see is what Gary does (no offence mate!). Doesn't count with your mates if they have an English parent.Quote:
Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Not sure what the soccer tourists refers to (??)
Lopez, I was there that night, didn't realise it was you who got the beating, think it was reported in the Irish Post as well.Quote:
Originally posted by lopez
Most of us 2G have had trouble with the resident Irish. I had a punch up and took a beating before the 97 game in Cardiff which made the Gerry Ryan (I think) show. But this IS the 1% because most of the 1G know the score or couldn't care less. Many would support England after Ireland aswell.
However, I have to say as 2G I haven't had any hassle from 1G apart from some very naive/stupid comments directed my way.
>>>>
Soccer tourism is going to watch football for the sake of it (at World Cup Finals, other games...if you have the money), which I see is what Gary does (no offence mate!). Doesn't count with your mates if they have an English parent.
>>>>>
No offence taken Lopez.
I as many others do enjoy watching football however watching other countries as a neutral is not a patch on watching your own team or your own country.
I do remember talking to some Manchester boys before that fatefull visit to the toilet, though. Anyway apart from looking like Chi-Chi the panda for a couple of weeks, no longlasting problems.;)Quote:
Originally posted by Junior
Lopez, I was there that night, didn't realise it was you who got the beating, think it was reported in the Irish Post as well.
However, I have to say as 2G I haven't had any hassle from 1G apart from some very naive/stupid comments directed my way.
Nearly all the time it's just ignorance. Moreoften it is innocent enough: 'Thanks for supporting us', 'Do you follow England?', 'Who you supporting if we play you (England) in the play-offs?'. Thankfully it is on the wane, although on Saturday I still got asked about my passport (see above). :mad:
I fully sympathise, Lopez, as I get the above all the time when I travel to visit Ireland. I find the above lines of questioning particularly maddening when I'm stood there in an Ireland shirt with a tricolour wrapped around me to boot. I've taken to offering the offenders my glasses so that they might see the colours in which the man stood before them is bedecked. :rolleyes: Occasionally they laugh; more often than not they've wandered off muttering something along the lines of "sarcastic English wánker"...Quote:
Originally posted by lopez
Nearly all the time it's just ignorance. Moreoften it is innocent enough: 'Thanks for supporting us', 'Do you follow England?', 'Who you supporting if we play you (England) in the play-offs?'. Thankfully it is on the wane, although on Saturday I still got asked about my passport.
It's another reason why I've adopted the "plastic" sobriquet, and use it in much the same way that Black people sometimes refer to each other as "nîgga" or gay men and lesbians sometimes refer to each other as "queer". That, and over thirty years of having to explain myself to people whose natural tendency is to try and place everything in life in easy-to-define categories.
:D PP - Plastic and Proud...
We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :DQuote:
Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
I fully sympathise, Lopez, as I get the above all the time when I travel to visit Ireland. I find the above lines of questioning particularly maddening when I'm stood there in an Ireland shirt with a tricolour wrapped around me to boot...It's another reason why I've adopted the "plastic" sobriquet, and use it in much the same way that Black people sometimes refer to each other as "nîgga" or gay men and lesbians sometimes refer to each other as "queer". That, and over thirty years of having to explain myself to people whose natural tendency is to try and place everything in life in easy-to-define categories.
Lead Vocalist from the 33rd county 'Manchestoooorrrrrr!:pQuote:
Originally posted by lopez
We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :D
May I suggest 'Ice Cold Guinness' ... or perhaps 'Dr. Drenk' as your handle, or is that too much stereotyping?:D :D :DQuote:
Originally posted by Junior
Lead Vocalist from the 33rd county 'Manchestoooorrrrrr!:p
Has anyone ever seen the "Ilford, Plastic Paddies On Tour"
flag... I saw it at USA 94... Classic
I was born in Ireland, but have lived in Holland for most of my life. People in Holland don't consider me Dutch at all, and I always call myself Irish and never Dutch. I'm a foreigner living in Holland, and that's the way it is. However, it annoys me when I go back to Ireland and I meet all these people with massive chips on their shoulders who don't consider you as Irish as themselves just because your accent isn't as thick as theirs or because you don't know one or two slang words that they do. It makes you feel like you don't belong anywhere anymore.
Or some kind of retro glam rock band, á la The Darkness. How does "Plastic Fantasic" sound?!? :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by lopez
We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :D
:D PP
I was thinking more 'Puff Paddy...........'Quote:
Originally posted by lopez
May I suggest 'Ice Cold Guinness' ... or perhaps 'Dr. Drenk' as your handle, or is that too much stereotyping?:D :D :D
I'll get my coat.
Only if I can be Wyclef Séan...Quote:
Originally posted by Junior
I was thinking more 'Puff Paddy...........'
:D PP
A plea
All this talk of violence and 1G versus 2G is all pretty depressing and not why I follow the boys in green? I’m not naive but in my time apart from the odd sarcastic comment on my cockney accent have never had any problem (home or away) but a feeling of warmth and belonging. Why do we go down this road when things go wrong? I have 2G Italian and Polish friends and they follow the country of their parents’ birth and culture without this complexity.
Supporting Ireland has been a wonderful experience and when life gets complicated has given me a bit of ballast. I still get the most amazing feeling when I remember Dublin on the night after the Dutch game in a state of absolute euphoria. Despite the result, Zurich and Basel for me were majestic experiences to add to my collection – so many new friends and memories.
I’m Plastic and I could never follow England or sing their national anthem. It just wouldn’t feel right. Others like me might and that’s their choice. End of…. That’s not to say London hasn’t been good to the Irish and vice versa – it gave jobs and money to send back home when the Celtic tiger was a fantasy – but for me England is ‘somebody else’s’ team.
I wear my RISSC-London top with so much pride knowing I am part of the Irish story in my own small way. Questions are asked at games about where in London, do I know such and such and Irish pub, where are the folks from?
When I started going away with Ireland my parents would never worry enough to try and stop me because I’d be ‘with my own’. That my friends is good enough for me.
Please don’t spoil it……..
(Ps sorry for the ramble!!!!)
Nice Post, all of the above applies to me also. only a bit of banter mate don't take things too seriously:)Quote:
Originally posted by London Irish
A plea
All this talk of violence and 1G versus 2G is all pretty depressing and not why I follow the boys in green? I’m not naive but in my time apart from the odd sarcastic comment on my cockney accent have never had any problem (home or away) but a feeling of warmth and belonging. Why do we go down this road when things go wrong? I have 2G Italian and Polish friends and they follow the country of their parents’ birth and culture without this complexity.
Supporting Ireland has been a wonderful experience and when life gets complicated has given me a bit of ballast. I still get the most amazing feeling when I remember Dublin on the night after the Dutch game in a state of absolute euphoria. Despite the result, Zurich and Basel for me were majestic experiences to add to my collection – so many new friends and memories.
I’m Plastic and I could never follow England or sing their national anthem. It just wouldn’t feel right. Others like me might and that’s their choice. End of…. That’s not to say London hasn’t been good to the Irish and vice versa – it gave jobs and money to send back home when the Celtic tiger was a fantasy – but for me England is ‘somebody else’s’ team.
I wear my RISSC-London top with so much pride knowing I am part of the Irish story in my own small way. Questions are asked at games about where in London, do I know such and such and Irish pub, where are the folks from?
When I started going away with Ireland my parents would never worry enough to try and stop me because I’d be ‘with my own’. That my friends is good enough for me.
Please don’t spoil it……..
(Ps sorry for the ramble!!!!)
Junior mate - wasn’t having a go at anyone and should have put as a new post.
Get a bit emotional sometimes and just a short story on what it all means to me. Think the two nights without sleep last weekend in Basel is catching up + a couple of pints prompted that one!!!!
Cheers