Drogs penalty-possible FAI Smudge?

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Originally Posted by sligoman

Why's that? I was under the impression that if Galway got past Derry then they were guaranteed the 4th spot in Europe no matter what. This makes things a bit more interesting for us now*:)

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The cup losers only ever get in if they lose the final to the league champions (i.e. double winners). EUFA rank the Cup winners ahead of 2nd in league.

So if, for example, Pats beat galway in the FAI final, and the league table finished as

1 Bohs
2 Pats
3 Derry
4 Sligo

The Euro qualifiers would be (depending on licenses etc etc) Bohs, Pats, Derry. Sligo

Presuming the 1,2,3 in the league is Bohs, Pats, Derry (or Derry/Pats) and Galway lose the semi on Sunday, 4th will be guarenteed Europa League ;)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

The cup losers only ever get in if they lose the final to the league champions (i.e. double winners).

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I thought part of the new UEFA Cup criteria was that losing cup finalists no longer qualify, even if they lose to the league champions.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Cup)

Cup winners who have already qualified for European competition via league placing will no longer hand their UEFA Europa League slot to the losing finalist. Their place in the competition will instead devolve onto the highest-placed team in the league not yet in European competition.

That wasn't implemented. It was proposed but didn't receive enough votes AFAIK. Wiki doesn't reference anything, and the original BBC report that announced it has been changed

So, AFAIK, its status quo with regards to cup final losers

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Originally Posted by scej

I thought part of the new UEFA Cup criteria was that losing cup finalists no longer qualify, even if they lose to the league champions.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Cup)

Cup winners who have already qualified for European competition via league placing will no longer hand their UEFA Europa League slot to the losing finalist. Their place in the competition will instead devolve onto the highest-placed team in the league not yet in European competition.

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man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

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Originally Posted by sligored

man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

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It only works with teams who have qualified for Champions League. So if Cardiff lost to Man U, they'd have been in.

man City qualfied for europe through the UEFA Fair play spot

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Originally Posted by sligored

man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

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Portsmouth didn't qualify for Europe through the league. They came mid table. City only got in on the fair play or by playing Intertoto or something like that.

Not sure if this is the way it works but this was my impression of how it worked

If the winners of the cup have qualified for the Champions League (double winners thus in Ireland) tbe place for the cup final goes to the runners up as the CL qualification is seen as better then the qualification for the cup.

If they finished in a place for the UEFA Cup in the league the Cup is seen as greater so they are seen to have taken the UEFA spot that was there for winning the cup and then the UEFA spot for the league goes to the next placed team

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Originally Posted by Nah Nah Nah Nah

If the winners of the cup have qualified for the Champions League (double winners thus in Ireland) tbe place for the cup final goes to the runners up as the CL qualification is seen as better then the qualification for the cup.

If they finished in a place for the UEFA Cup in the league the Cup is seen as greater so they are seen to have taken the UEFA spot that was there for winning the cup and then the UEFA spot for the league goes to the next placed team

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Correct.

And as Dodge stated, it was proposed that cup runnners-up couldn't qualify for the Europa League but it wasn't actually implemented.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Correct.

And as Dodge stated, it was proposed that cup runnners-up couldn't qualify for the Europa League but it wasn't actually implemented.

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afaik it is in after next season

Any sources? Couldn't find any

(and don't mean this to be smartarsey, genuinely I've been looking for stuff on europe next year)

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Originally Posted by passerrby

afaik it is in after next season

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Pretty sure the new rules were being brought in with start of this new Europa League or whatever it is called now. But that is open to correction but i thought that was the one thing i gathered from the whole thing. :o:)

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

Rovers were deducted all points earned pre-examinership.

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They had to punish you somehow so came up with the magic 8 points (which just happened to be your total at the time) for the accounts being the same two years running.

Rovers were not docked a single point for going into examinership.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Any sources? Couldn't find any

(and don't mean this to be smartarsey, genuinely I've been looking for stuff on europe next year)

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am 95% sure but will get confirmation and get back to you

Are Drogheda going to get a points deduction then or what? :confused:

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Are Drogheda going to get a points deduction then or what? :confused:

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Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

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But will they only be discussing Drogheda I wonder...

It is the Licencing Body (or similar one) that issues the points deduction so until they sit Drogs keep their points. It is correct the Examiner asked that City situation be decided quickly. I would be amazed is Drogs did not get 10 point deduction as it was explained that we got it for entering Examinership & as such nothing really to do with licencing or 65% rule which have yet to be decided.

From the outside Drogs look in much worse situation. CCFC would be gone if we did not sell Mooney (to pay Examiner up front) & we would not have been able to afford even modest repayment of debts if didn't have the potential for significant cut of Doyle transfer.

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

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Originally Posted by pete

It is the Licencing Body (or similar one) that issues the points deduction so until they sit Drogs keep their points. It is correct the Examiner asked that City situation be decided quickly. I would be amazed is Drogs did not get 10 point deduction as it was explained that we got it for entering Examinership & as such nothing really to do with licencing or 65% rule which have yet to be decided.

From the outside Drogs look in much worse situation. CCFC would be gone if we did not sell Mooney (to pay Examiner up front) & we would not have been able to afford even modest repayment of debts if didn't have the potential for significant cut of Doyle transfer.

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

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Application for Examinership by Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and Drogheda United was always about protecting the name of the club and never about recognising responsibility towards their creditors.

I have defended Drogheda Utd.'s actions in recent years because I believe 'investment needs to be rewarded' (climbing up the table, increased European participation)
But now I'm with the Revenue Commisioners on this one. They have my best interets at heart.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

But will they only be discussing Drogheda I wonder...

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Do you expect Harps to get punished?

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Originally Posted by pete

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

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Drogheda have some very wealthy directors behind them. Not that hard to understand surely?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Drogheda have some very wealthy directors behind them. Not that hard to understand surely?

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well it is when the debts are only 3 times the cost of examinership. If the 250k was used to service debts they could then look at saving money in other areas to reduce the debt further.

I have a feeling that they will hope to get the debt cleared at a cost of maybe 500k (including cost of examinership) because they know a 10 point hit wont really hurt them a lot. Then they will probably try to start with a clean slate next year without going part time. Maybe Im being too cynical here but when that Hoey dude keeps talking about next year like nothing much will change, they hoep to get the new ground etc, it strikes me as suspicious.

Also, they got a licence this year on the back of the new ground being in the pipeline, and know they wont get one next year unless they can produce all sort of sob stories.

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Originally Posted by bohs til i die

I have a feeling that they will hope to get the debt cleared at a cost of maybe 500k (including cost of examinership) because they know a 10 point hit wont really hurt them a lot.

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In which case, you could well imagine the rich directors paying for examinership to get out of other debts, I suppose.

Though if the lads intend staying on with minimal changes, I can't see how Drogheda can get out of examinership, to be honest.

Wasn't it touch and go that they would even get in to examinership without being wound up?

Revenue objected, if that's what you mean. They'll presumably objcet to any non-100% settlement too, and Drogs have no sell-on clauses to butter any deals.

so was the decision made today?

10 point penalty just announced, effective immediately. I'll be up to Sligo next year to watch them in Europe, putting provincial rivarly aside, come on the Bit O Red

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Originally Posted by forza rovers

so was the decision made today?

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Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy

10 point penalty just announced, effective immediately. I'll be up to Sligo next year to watch them in Europe, putting provincial rivarly aside, come on the Bit O Red

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Bring 'Jumbo' Brennan back!

We're not there yet, seems FAI will help Cork get into Europe if they finish 4th, so hopes of Cork getting European licence improved a bit. We need 4th to guarantee it, hope Pat's win tomorrow and then we'll go to Cork on Friday 2 points clear;).

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Originally Posted by sligoman

We're not there yet, seems FAI will help Cork get into Europe if they finish 4th, so hopes of Cork getting European licence improved a bit.

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Unfair if true. No other way of putting it. They didn't stay within the rules and they deserve to sit out their punishment. Can't see eufa allowing this.

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Originally Posted by Inside Man

Unfair if true. No other way of putting it. They didn't stay within the rules and they deserve to sit out their punishment. Can't see eufa allowing this.

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Disgrace if true, if there is such a rule in place then it should be applied to which ever clubs goes into administration or examinership.

Personally I think thought that this is just waffle so not as to scare off any "investors" :rolleyes: who might be sniffing around Drogs and wouldnt like to hear that this will also apply to Drogs.

I think Platini's "its the cheats who are winning" quote is telling and I cant see UEFA allowing a fudge of this rule.

bhs

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Not sure if it is a story at all, i would be fearful if the FAI were handing out the license but it is UEFA and they seem pretty strict although i hoped the FAI would clarify things by now. They can hardly turn around and say we won't support one of our clubs if they finish in a European place but not sure how much support they could actually give Cork to getting the UEFA license.

Not even the FAI could attempt a fudge of this proportion and if it did come form a FAI official it is fairly disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Good point.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Going into examinership is a 10 point deduction, only further action that can be taken is the FAI licencing committee not to award a club a licence next year.

Cork have come out of examinership and If they are able to comply with the licence committee requirments to get a prem licence, FAI will grant them one and no further action will be taken( I reckon they will get a prem licence next season)

Drogs have get out of examinership to have a chance of prem licence and then the ground will be a problem as its not prem standard(too early to say but if Drogs get out examinership in a reasonable shape by Dec and agree a ground share they may have a chance to get a prem licence)

Are the 2009 licence application not submitted at this stage,AFAIK the deadline was last week?

Could be a few interesting ones to consider.......

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Originally Posted by Trainee

Going into examinership is a 10 point deduction, only further action that can be taken is the FAI licencing committee not to award a club a licence next year.

Cork have come out of examinership and If they are able to comply with the licence committee requirments to get a prem licence, FAI will grant them one and no further action will be taken( I reckon they will get a prem licence next season)

Drogs have get out of examinership to have a chance of prem licence and then the ground will be a problem as its not prem standard(too early to say but if Drogs get out examinership in a reasonable shape by Dec and agree a ground share they may have a chance to get a prem licence)

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Agreed, at this stage would be amazed if Cork are not in the premier next year but would be surprised if Drogs were.

bhs

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Exactly
This would be a disgrace if true.

If Drogs go down and Shels don't get promoted two out of the last three LOI Champions will be playing in the First Divison come next season :eek::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

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Why should they be punished twice for the same cime. They were punished for licensing violations. They got a 10 point deduction.

Anyway, for they way the club has orgainsied itself on and off the filed since their owners left them high and dry, I think that they should get some reward for turning things around.

Its not their fault that the league is so badthat a team with a 10point decution can still qualify for Europe. If they are good enough to qualify on merit then let them. They should not be disqualifed by a technicality off the field that has nothing to do with performances on the field.

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Are the 2009 licence application not submitted at this stage,AFAIK the deadline was last week?

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Only the structural part of licensing. Staff, youth development etc

Financials not due in until 31st January