Setanta are never going to have a final on at the time (clashing with their UK football). It has always been saturday night, and will always be a night fixtureQuote:
Originally Posted by bohs til i die
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Setanta are never going to have a final on at the time (clashing with their UK football). It has always been saturday night, and will always be a night fixtureQuote:
Originally Posted by bohs til i die
Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I'd actually be interested to see it when it's not full of bandwagon jumpers. :rolleyes:
Yeah, got that accusation from a few people in work actually. It's a particular ask for Glens fans to travel to Cork when their longest journey of the season is an hour and a half to Derry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
Yes, Cork have travelled a fair bit themselves, but that's only because of geography. It can't be used as a reason to demand hosting a final.
Setanta should have appointed final venues and stick to them. Or else state in the rules that if the finalists are from opposing leagues, on side should have home advantage. Make it offical instead selecting the venue depending on who's in the final.
Agreeing with Pietro that there are some positives. If we're ever to have an AIL, it's the IL fans we need to be convinced. Travel distances are what they fear most. Having them travel to Cork will let the see that it's not that bad a journey, it is do-able. Plus, they should really enjoy Cork, it's a great spot. Maybe the away trip to Cork will seem like much better craic than that away trip to Larne?
IMO though, all finals should be at a neutral venue, including the LC too.
No-one is demanding we host the final.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
We were expecting it would be at TC given the precedent Setanta have set, if it had been in a neutral venue and closer to Glens to keep them happy (seeing as their famour travelling support won't travel 5 hours [mostly on motorway] at the weekend) we'd have gotten over it.
Sorry, maybe slightly strong a word. I don't think you can use it to justify playing the game at Turners.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
Most City fans I know were not expecting it to be at Turner's Cross. But every final between both associations gave home advantage to one of the participants. The fact that this means it's on in Cork should not be a justification for changing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Don't expect much sympathy from City fans about travel distances;)
A Dublin final would have been handier for me too. But at least this way I get an excuse for 6th weekend in Cork this year. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by derm
it says a lot about our sporting infrastructure, that our second best facility is nothing more than a poor mans Mc Alpine(Huddersfields home ground):oQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
Sorry brendy, but we're not justifying it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
We were given the final based on the precedent Setanta have set, the point about travelling is just to highlight how poor the Glens argument actually is, if you sign up to an All-Ireland competition, you have to expect that at some stage you'll have to drive more than an hour for a game.
Is it fair, possibly not, I can understand that.
Was it expected? absolutely, no point Glens pretending it's a great surprise.
True.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
And to make matters worse the Glens continue to state how much they are for an All-Ireland League. :rolleyes:
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Graemerz
I don't think there'd be too much of an uproar if we had to play Cork away in a league game. I mean, fancy that.
Bit different when the team you're facing in a final just happens to play in the ground hosting the match.
Sound familiar, batcave?
:D Was wondering who would bring that up!! The old IFA Linfield home advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux Interior
This is an extremely skewed view of th facts, purely to suit your arguement. It has more holes in it than a pair of old fish net tights.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
Lets look at each year's finals :
2005 : Was always scheduled to be held in Tolka (the south’s agreed Setanta final venue). Shels just happened to get there - so it was purely by default, not design, that it wasn't at a neutral venue.
2006 : The final was slated for Windsor (the north’s agreed Setanta final venue). But as two southern teams made the final, it got switched instead to the south's Setanta venue : Tolka. If the Setanta final location is all about non-neutral venues and mythical precedents, then why wasn’t one used this year ? :confused:
2007 : After being in Dublin twice already, the Final was owed to Windsor (the north's Setanta venue) so long as a Northern team got there. One did - and it just happened to be Linfield. Again - it was neutral by default, not design. Had it been Glentoran, Dungannon or even Derry in the final it would still have been held at Windsor.
2008 : The Final gets allocated to a non-neutral venue deliberately. Not by default. Can you not see how this is wrong....?! :eek:
And your later talk of some sort of mythical 'Setanta precedent' is again just bullsh!t to suit your arguement. The 2000 FAI Cup Final was held at Tolka - which the allocated final venue at that time. Shels just happened to reach the final that year. Did that therefore set a precedent for giving the Final to the home ground of one or other finalist? Did it fcuk. Did Bohs or Longford then demand that the 2001 Final be hosted at one of their grounds because a pre4cedent had been set ? Did they hell (even though Dalymount had hosted the replay the previous year).
The only precedent involved in the Setanta Final is the one that has just been set by deliberately selecting a non-neutral venue. Not only is it unfair and reducing the prestige and standing of the final, I can guarantee you that it will also lead to rows between clubs in future years.
No you wouldn't. You'd be going to Windsor - the north's allocated Setanta Final venue.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
Both venues chosen in 2005 & 2007 were home to competitors in the competition. There was always a fairly good chance that the finalists would include the home team given the strengths of the Shels & Linfield. Neither therefore were neutral.
An honest question, would as much a fuss be made of this if Derry had won and the final was in the Brandywell? The decision was made before the game and should have objected to then.
Given that there isn't a single neutral football stadium in the country, and Lansdwione and Croker were both either unsuitable or unavailable, some club ground or other was going to have to be used. It is impossible to avoid using a club's stadium in Ireland. That doesn't change anything - and doesn't excuse givbing home advantage for a major final by design, not default. You're clutching at very small straws with very big hands here...Quote:
Originally Posted by derm
An honest answer - if Derry had won, I'd have wanted the final in Windsor, not the Brandywell. For a whole host of reasons - including prestige and size of crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by derm
Oh please. There are plenty of neutral football stadia, i.e any ground whose team is not in the competition. What's lacking is decent stadia that would be able to host the final. There is a further complication regarding travel. Can a stadium be considered neutral if one side has much more support because of shorter distances for the fans to travel, e.g a Dublin team vs a non-Dublin team in Tolka? Should a venue of roughly equal distance from both teams be found?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I'm not clutching at any straws, I think that a finalist playing at home has an unfair advantage, Shels had it, Linfield had it, City will have it. But we're living in the real world here and the competition has not exactly been a resounding success. It would not be helped by a final in a half-empty tolka park which is why the decision was made I'd wager. The Brandywell or the Cross would be full and look better on TV. Real world. Is it fair? No, but neither were the other finals for different reasons.
I hope that the IFA return the favour next year and the LoI representative will be in a venue that promises the highest revenue for the two teams involved. If true neutrality cannot be achieved then revenue should be the key, let's face it all teams need it.
Anyway I wish Glens luck (but not too much) and hope that as many fans can travel as possible and enjoy their trip (but not too much :) ). I also hope that we can help fill our clubs' coffers and give them a chance for revenge in the Oval next year ;)
That's a cop-out answer to be fair. Personally I'd also have liked the final in Windsor, or Croker or even Wembley, but none of them were on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I only asked because distance has been mentioned a lot, even more so than the unfairness of home advantage.
Again, when did Cork City demand anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Look, I accept your argument on the finals, you seem to know more about it than I do, I just worked off a memory of where the finals were held and the fact (it seems now a coincidence) that where two associations were represented in a final, one team has always had literal home advantage, a neutral venue only being used when both teams came from the same association.
No Cork City fan would have had a problem with travelling to Dublin for this and giving the Glens an advantage in terms of distance, we just would have gotten on with it. I find all the complaining (especially when it seems to be laid at our door and not Setanta's) to be painful in the extreme, if it was just complaint about the final being at a non-neutral venue, I'd nearly put up with it, but a huge amount of it is complaining that they have to travel the length of the Island for an all-ireland competition.
Maybe they should be hanging onto the fact that on the two previous occasions where there was a literal home advantage, the home team lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
RDS ceased to be?
Keyword: Football.Quote:
Originally Posted by KianD
Just put it on in Lissywoolen and everyone has an equal distance to travel. Simple. :)
It was common knowledge before Tuesdays game that the final would be held in Derry or Cork. Those are the rules. This debate should be about possibly changing for future years.
Its as much a 'football' stadium as Croke Park is (mentioned as being one).Quote:
Originally Posted by fionnsci
For all that people refer to "precedent" (as if that should bind us irrevocably), or maximising the crowd etc, I think the Setanta Cup organisers are seriously devaluing the competition by their allocating the Final venue to one of the participating teams, whether it be Linfield or Cork etc
After all this should be a prestige occasion, to be looked forward to even by supporters of teams which aren't in the final, so that fans of Eircom clubs can forget their usual affiliations for a day and support Cork and fans of IL clubs, other than Linfield, can rally behind the Glens. (The Bloos can use that Saturday evening for a bit of late night shopping for Burberry hats and Sovereign rings etc ;))
As such, a neutral venue, either in Dublin or Belfast should be a must.
This is especially since in NI, at least, there appears to be serious disenchantment with the whole tournament, not helped at all by this latest decision.
The following article from Thursday's Belfast Telegraph outlines the Glens' anger over this. I have highlighted some sections which I think particularly relevant. (And btw, something which has been overlooked by posters from the ROI is that it seems NI coach companies won't permit same day Itineraries for a journey of that distance i.e. they insist that such trips be overnight, thereby adding to the cost for Glens' fans. If played in Dublin, neither set of fans would face this extra financial hardship).
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14003784.html
Cross words from Glentoran over Setanta Sports Cup venue
By Chris Holt
Thursday, 16 October 2008
Glentoran chairman Aubry Ralph has described as ‘disgraceful’ the decision to have the Setanta Sports Cup decider played at Turner’s Cross – the home of fellow finalists Cork City.
It was hoped that once the Rebels made their way into the showpiece with victory over Derry City at the Brandywell on Tuesday night, common sense would prevail and the game would be played in Dublin.
However, the Setanta Sports Cup Committee — headed up by former FAI President Milo Corcoran — have inexplicably plumped for Turner’s Cross as the venue for the final, meaning that Glentoran fans will face a 528-mile round trip from Belfast to Cork to watch their side take part in the decider for the first time.
Having sold their entire allocation for their semi-final with Drogheda United on Monday night, it was expected that upwards of 2,000 Glenmen would now travel to Dublin had the match been played there.
Now an estimated 500 are likely to make the very long journey south.
The move is a smack in the face for Glentoran and teams in the JJB Sports Premiership as a whole.
Indeed it was announced on Setanta’s live coverage of that match on Tuesday that Turner’s Cross would be the venue, though Glentoran weren’t informed of this decision until yesterday afternoon.
Conspiracy theorists would suggest that eircom League sides are being favoured in the competition and Chairman Ralph (pictured) has hit out at Corcoran and the organising committee for treating his club with such disdain.
“I am so annoyed by the decision – I think it’s disgraceful and I had a very volatile telephone conversation with Milo Corcoran (yesterday) and made my feelings and that of the club very clear,” he said.
“I asked for the rationale behind the decision and all they seemed to give me was the fact that Turner’s Cross is owned by the association and they wouldn’t have to pay to use it, as they would have done had it been in one of the grounds in Dublin.
“I told him it’s not all about money — to me it’s just not a good enough reason.
“And a precedence had been set in the past when the final was played in Dublin between Drogheda and Cork and they paid for a ground then.
“We would have had a couple of thousand going to Dublin had it been there but now I would imagine that we are going to just have the usual European veterans making the trip. I’ve estimated that it would cost in the region of £150 per person when you take into account travelling, possibly staying over and if you have a family of say three, as I have, it’s going to cost £450.
“The decision is fundamentally wrong, is disrespectful to the Irish League and disrespectful to glentoran and it’s supporters and ultimately I think it was a sop to Cork City
“I know that our association’s representatives on the committee are equally unhappy and let’s just say that relations between the FAI and the IFA with regards to the Setanta Cup are at an all-time low.
Craig Stanfield, one of the IFA’s representatives on the committee, intimated that the decision was taken quite some time ago.
"There was a heated debate last Tuesday at a meeting of the Organising Committee when it was suggested the final would be held in Cork if Cork City were to make it to the final,” he said.
"Jack Grundie and I were there to fight the corner of the Irish League clubs and we felt strongly about taking the final to Windsor Park if it had have been Glentoran against Derry City.
"Even then we were told it would be the Brandywell. We were strongly opposed to that suggestion as we are of the final now being in Cork.
"The Organising Committee were contacted by telephone (yesterday) to ascertain opinion on where the final venue should be and then we were informed it would be in Cork.
"There is another meeting next Thursday and we will ask questions as to why this happened. It is a very frustrating situation and we will forcibly put our point of view across.”
On the part about paying for a ground. They had to pay for somewhere when it was between us and Drogs because neither United Park or the Cross could host the final at the time
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
Besides, an extra, say, 1500 Glens fans at €20(?) a pop would go a long way towards renting a ground in Dublin.
That would be cancelled out by there being 1500 less Cork fans though.. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So Cork fans, and their money, are somehow more important than Glens fans and their money...Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
On that basis, Cup Finals should always be played at the home of the team which can guarantee to supply the most fans.
Their money is more important, Sterling is rubbish this weather. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
No it wasn't Pete. If it was - show me where it was mentioned on here, for example...?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Seems it wasn't even common knowledge amongst Glentoran Board members, let alone random punters...
But there would be maybe double that of City fans who wouldnt come.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Numbers wise it doesnt add up for Setanta....and numbers is all they care about. If Dublin would gotten a crowd which which have been enough more than the crowd at the cross to cover the cost of renting it would have been there.
All about the money.
Although theres a Glens fan on our forum claiming there would have been 15,000 if it were in Dublin :D
Most cup finals arent only in existence becuase of a company...a company interested in 2 things, money and ratingsQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Alan matthews had a fair idea.Then again he is the special one:DQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
How about playing the final over 2 legs everyones a winner then 5k in Cork and 15k in Belfast, the IFA and FAI rotate the 2nd leg.
:Dbring it on hahQuote:
Originally Posted by londonred
Sounds fair to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by londonred
Interestingly the main complaint of that article posted by Ealing Green again seems to be the distance to be travelled more so than home advantage :confused:
The unfair (home) advantage is a given. What I took out of the article was the Glens' extreme dissatisfaction at how/when/by whom the decision to allocate the venue for the Final was taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by derm
The clear implication was that regardless of "fairness" etc, it was always going to be the Brandywell or Turners Cross, with the IFA representatives having no say whatever.
Or didn't you get as far as the end of the article?
“The decision is fundamentally wrong, is disrespectful to the Irish League and disrespectful to glentoran and it’s supporters and ultimately I think it was a sop to Cork City
“I know that our association’s representatives on the committee are equally unhappy and let’s just say that relations between the FAI and the IFA with regards to the Setanta Cup are at an all-time low.
Craig Stanfield, one of the IFA’s representatives on the committee, intimated that the decision was taken quite some time ago.
"There was a heated debate last Tuesday at a meeting of the Organising Committee when it was suggested the final would be held in Cork if Cork City were to make it to the final,” he said.
"Jack Grundie and I were there to fight the corner of the Irish League clubs and we felt strongly about taking the final to Windsor Park if it had have been Glentoran against Derry City.
"Even then we were told it would be the Brandywell. We were strongly opposed to that suggestion as we are of the final now being in Cork.
"The Organising Committee were contacted by telephone (yesterday) to ascertain opinion on where the final venue should be and then we were informed it would be in Cork.
"There is another meeting next Thursday and we will ask questions as to why this happened. It is a very frustrating situation and we will forcibly put our point of view across.”
It's great that ye have yer excuses out before we beat ye.:pLike many other people i would have rather to have to travel to Tolka for the game but that is not how it panned out so get on with it and stop whinging:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Knowing how the FAI in particular, and Ireland in general, works - I can't help but suspect that the Final was given to Cork to help boost their coffers at a time of clear financial need.
Just a suspicion....
Well if this is the policy now - I look forward to making the trip up to Stangmore Park to watch Dungannon vs Bohs in the Final next year
tis only fair and all
I personally am not so bothered by the home advantage element. Rather, my gripe is threefold.Quote:
Originally Posted by corkboy360
First, I think the Final should be a prestige occasion for the whole of Irish club football, hosted in the most appropriate venue in Dublin or Belfast. For example, if the Final were between e.g. Glentoran and Derry City, or even Glens and Linfield, Windsor would be my choice.
Second, as someone who wants to see this competition thrive, I am dismayed that there is evident bad feeling on the IFA side, clearly not helped by this decision and the manner in which it was made.
Third, whilst I accept that Setanta are putting a lot of money into the competition, their desire to see a large crowd, and maybe even a winner from the larger of the two Subscription TV audiences on the island(?), should not override purely sporting considerations, such as fairness.
And if DCFC Steve is correct in his suspicion (above) that this decision was taken to "compensate" Cork for the self-inflicted financial mess they're in, then that would be disgraceful.
P.S. This situation didn't just "pan out", like the weather or something. It was a conscious decision, made by people whose motives are suspect. Why should we have to tolerate this, when it is entirely avoidable?