HIV on the rise in Ireland

Well i dont think it should be freely available its a very dangerous course of medication that is ment to be used in emergencies not as a contraceptive.

It should be prescribed by a doctor in the same way anti biotics need to be its not like buying a cough bottle.


If you can walk in a pick it up off the shelf will people think its safe and use it more than they should ? yes of course they will why ? because people are dumbasses. Look at how aspirin is abused at the moment and whats the one with coedine in it that people are getting addicted to because they can buy it over the counter.

It costs 50 euro to go to a doc but since you should probibly never need it and only a small % should need it once or twice its a small cost to pay to know you are taking a medicine that is safe for you to take.


There are only two ways of stopping pregnancy/ STD's and that condoms or an Opal ring ;) i think the first is the better

No ones saying to just put it on display in the same way they do aspirin anto, but the inhouse chemist doctor should be able to prescribe it to you after quickly asking you a few simple questions free of charge. Not to mention that the majority of people who need it will be delayed in getting it because of work/school clashing with doctors hours, or it being the weekend, and since time is crucial in getting it people shouldn't have to make an appointment, get out of work, go to the doctors for what is a 5 minute consultation and then get to the chemist

Some degree of ignorance there Anto. Taking the morning after pill isn't a pleasant experience for the woman, and not something that something that they'd be rushing out to repeat.

But as Jebus has pointed out, they're not proposing that it'd be off the shelf, they're proposing it'd be over the counter from a pharmacist.

I'd also agree with Wolfie on the education campaigns. I remember them from when I was a kid, and in the UK they actually put the lower heroin addiction rates for my generation growing up down to the campaigns such as the Grange Hill and that. Condoms should be given out free in schools & health centres, and needle exchanges should be the same. There should be comprehensive sex education. As with drugs, you ain't going to get the kids to stop, so educate them to minimise the risks.

Well im all for lowering doctor fee’s or even removing the need to visit the surgery at all. In this day and age it could easily be done over the phone or fax . Over the counter means just that though that you just buy it granted its slightly better than selling it in the shops, ive bought lots of medication in chemist that’s restricted to there shops and have never been asked a question.

Macy I know its hard on women its hard because it’s a very harsh course of medication on the body and for that reason I don’t think it should be available without a doctors consent. I know its not something most women want to repeat doing and its not recommended to be done more than once or twice, even once can have long lasting effects. But you and I both know there are women that will use it as back up go out get locked then go to the chemist Monday morning for this pill.

PS: I didn’t refer to darcy as a clown for this comment it was just a general clown statement !! :D

Simple things like free condoms needle exchanges increased rehab beds etc would all help to reduce peoples risks ,but this will never happen here because too many people believe that that means you are promoting it !!! ( yes i spot thats kind of my arguement on the morning after pill )

But mainly not having unprotected sex or using dirty needles is still probably the best way of avoiding it.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Well i dont think it should be freely available its a very dangerous course of medication that is ment to be used in emergencies not as a contraceptive.

It should be prescribed by a doctor in the same way anti biotics need to be its not like buying a cough bottle.


If you can walk in a pick it up off the shelf will people think its safe and use it more than they should ? yes of course they will why ? because people are dumbasses. Look at how aspirin is abused at the moment and whats the one with coedine in it that people are getting addicted to because they can buy it over the counter.

It costs 50 euro to go to a doc but since you should probibly never need it and only a small % should need it once or twice its a small cost to pay to know you are taking a medicine that is safe for you to take.


There are only two ways of stopping pregnancy/ STD's and that condoms or an Opal ring ;) i think the first is the better

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Originally Posted by jebus

No ones saying to just put it on display in the same way they do aspirin anto, but the inhouse chemist doctor should be able to prescribe it to you after quickly asking you a few simple questions free of charge. Not to mention that the majority of people who need it will be delayed in getting it because of work/school clashing with doctors hours, or it being the weekend, and since time is crucial in getting it people shouldn't have to make an appointment, get out of work, go to the doctors for what is a 5 minute consultation and then get to the chemist

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What he said.

Also it seesm not to have led to many problems in the UK or US so maybe its worth studying the figures for those countries.

If it doestn seem to cause much detriment then I dont see the reason for not giving pharmacists the power to prescribe it.

It simply a case of practicality a lot of the time. Say its half 2 in the morning on a Saturday and you realise the condom has broken. Were this available, you could go to an all night pharmacy and be almost guaranteed that the pill would be effective.

Wihtout it you have to wait til Sunday (if youre lucky) and Monday in most cases(people who dont know where to find a doctor on a Sunday) when the pill is far less effective.

Of course the pharmacist should have the same discussion with you as the doctor would have, which Im sure they are well capable of doing, and they should refer you to a doctor then to talk about your overall sexual health, after you have gotten the medication

The pharmacy consultation costs about €30 in the UK.

The morning after pill is just a high dose (5x) of the contraceptive pill. They say half of the young women stop using the pill after a year due to its effects. I suppose the MAP is a one time steroid toxic shock so Macy has a valid point but imo doesn't compare to regular use of the Pill. Anyway it doesn't have any effect on incidence of HIV. The proven preventative practice on the spread of STD´s etc is the use of condoms.

On sex education in Schools
My 16 yo daughter chose to take care of a computerized baby doll for one weekend.
The baby is computerized to record and demand to be fed,TLC and nappy changes as well as recording neglect and abuse.
For that she gained 3 points on her overall credits (I think about the same as semester's slog with Maths)
It really pained me :rolleyes: to hear the baby start crying like crazy at 7am on Saturday morning and hear her exasperated, at her wits end, saying - 'look it what's wrong you've been fed you've been changed and still you are crying for no reason'

Incidentally 4 boys and 26 girls chose to sign up to that program.

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Originally Posted by geysir

My 16 yo daughter chose to take care of a computerized baby doll for one weekend...
It really pained me :rolleyes: to hear the baby start crying like crazy at 7am on Saturday morning and hear her exasperated, at her wits end, saying - 'look it what's wrong you've been fed you've been changed and still you are crying for no reason'

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Did you advise her that shaking it helps? ;)

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For that she gained 3 points on her overall credits (I think about the same as semester's slog with Maths)

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I really wonder sometimes if recent changes in education were created using the same system South Park suggested Family Guy uses to create jokes.

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Originally Posted by John83

Did you advise her that shaking it helps? ;)

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Someone's been reading the Louise Woodward Guide to Babysitting anyway

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Originally Posted by John83

I really wonder sometimes if recent changes in education were created using the same system South Park suggested Family Guy uses to create jokes.

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:confused:
Which recent sex education changes? What did South Park (Korean?) suggest about Family Guy's joke creativity?

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Originally Posted by geysir

:confused:
Which recent sex education changes? What did South Park (Korean?) suggest about Family Guy's joke creativity?

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That the jokes are made in a big tank of water full of "idea balls" that have something written on them a manatee ( sea creature) goes over gets a random ball brings it over and puts it in the machine when 3 or 4 balls get picked a joke is created.

They picked something liek "Gary Coleman" "dinner" "mexico" then it cuts to a family guy scene where peter goes remember that time i had dinner in mexico with gary coleman cuts to scene ...........

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Originally Posted by geysir

:confused:
Which recent sex education changes?

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Anto's explained the joke. An example of the kind of changes I was referring to is the line I quoted directly above that sentence.

Sounds funny but smart ass in context.
I would be interested to hear if you know about other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes.
Do you think education is more about Maths that about life?

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Originally Posted by geysir

I would be interested to hear if you know about other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes.

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It's not up to me to disprove that the method is effective, or to find a more effective one. It's up to you to back up your claim that it's effective. Not to go all Tom Cruise on you, but show me the study.

In general it depends on what you're measuring, but it seems that sex education has a negligible effect on the number of teenagers having sex, e.g.
M. Silva, "The effectiveness of school-based sex education programs in the promotion of abstinent behavior: a meta-analysis", Health Education Research, 17, 4, pp471-481, August 2002
Similar studies on the effectiveness of various programmes on prophylactic use don't seem to form a consensus.

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Do you think education is more about Maths that about life?

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I think that education is about many things. I also think that equating a weekend project to four months' work is utterly imbecilic in all but the most lop-sided of cases. This is not one of those.

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Originally Posted by John83

It's not up to me to disprove that the method is effective, or to find a more effective one. It's up to you to back up your claim that it's effective. Not to go all Tom Cruise on you, but show me the study.

In general it depends on what you're measuring, but it seems that sex education has a negligible effect on the number of teenagers having sex, e.g.
M. Silva, "The effectiveness of school-based sex education programs in the promotion of abstinent behavior: a meta-analysis", Health Education Research, 17, 4, pp471-481, August 2002
Similar studies on the effectiveness of various programmes on prophylactic use don't seem to form a consensus

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Who said it was about Teenagers abstaining from sex or that that was the goal of the project? Where did you get that idea from?

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I think that education is about many things. I also think that equating a weekend project to four months' work is utterly imbecilic in all but the most lop-sided of cases. This is not one of those

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Considering that you have demonstrated a misconception about the purpose of the doll project I am skeptical already about your grasp of life educational matters and your ability to discriminate what is of imbecilic value to a teenager.
I can't be anyway definite on the points, it is the same gained from PE for a whole year. The Baby project involves 60 hours.
The best weekends project my daughter has ever done and would unreservedly recommend it to be a part of every schools program.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Who said it was about Teenagers abstaining from sex or that that was the goal of the project? Where did you get that idea from?

Considering that you have demonstrated a misconception about the purpose of the doll project I am skeptical already about your grasp of life educational matters and your ability to discriminate what is of imbecilic value to a teenager.
I can't be anyway definite on the points, it is the same gained from PE for a whole year. The Baby project involves 60 hours.
The best weekends project my daughter has ever done and would unreservedly recommend it to be a part of every schools program.

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You asked me to find "other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes." That tells me that you think the doll project is a sex education programme.

What skills do you think it taught your daughter? Do you think it will make her a better mother when the time comes? Why?

Thanks for the personal attack there. It tells me a lot about you.

Where exactly is the personal attack? I have no desire to indulge in a personal attack on you. I consider that you made a superficial over intellectual response/dismissal to a serious enough practical approach to teenage sex education and I replied without any hint of a personal attack. Read my reply more carefully.

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You asked me to find "other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes." That tells me that you think the doll project is a sex education programme.

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You assumed that sex ed. was about sexual abstinence.
You assumed that the purpose of the doll project was to promote sexual abstinence.

It is obviously a project designed to reinforce in teenage girls (and willing boys) that now (or anytime soon) is not the desired or appropriate time to get pregnant or be a father. Whether that involves sexual abstinence, boy/girl abstinence or use of condoms - doesn't come into it.
The discussion here partly involved unwanted pregnancies but more so I referred to use of condoms. Sexual abstinence is the Vatican's answer to the AIDS issue.

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What skills do you think it taught your daughter? Do you think it will make her a better mother when the time comes? Why?

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The participants only get credits for successfully completing the experiment, they would lose points for neglect and abuse.
Skill is something I am teaching her in her driving lessons with me.
Emotional development is more a process of learning which isn't measured or garnered in the same way as academic subjects. So I don't see any skill being gained from the project nor is there the slightest aim or hope that it will make her a better mother.
Whether the figure is 1/5 or 1/4 or 1/3 teenage unplanned pregnancies, I take the responsibility to be a part of the encouraging her not to be one of those statistics, to continue with her education and become a mother when she is more mature.
And not having a clue how to go about it I was delighted to see how this project affected her and her friends as well as about 90% of those who participated in it.

I take it that you do not have a teenage daughter going on 17 :)

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Originally Posted by geysir

Where exactly is the personal attack? I have no desire to indulge in a personal attack on you. I consider that you made a superficial over intellectual response/dismissal to a serious enough practical approach to teenage sex education and I replied without any hint of a personal attack. Read my reply more carefully.

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I overreacted somewhat. My apologies.

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You assumed that sex ed. was about sexual abstinence.
You assumed that the purpose of the doll project was to promote sexual abstinence.

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No, I did not. I'll explain further in a moment.

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It is obviously a project designed to reinforce in teenage girls (and willing boys) that now (or anytime soon) is not the desired or appropriate time to get pregnant or be a father. Whether that involves sexual abstinence, boy/girl abstinence or use of condoms - doesn't come into it.
The discussion here partly involved unwanted pregnancies but more so I referred to use of condoms. Sexual abstinence is the Vatican's answer to the AIDS issue.

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It's you who misunderstand.

You say the doll project is "to reinforce in teenage girls (and willing boys) that now (or anytime soon) is not the desired or appropriate time to get pregnant or be a father". You also asked me to find "other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes."

I would like to answer the question. What's more effective in impressing on teenagers not to have kids yet? I don't value anecdotal evidence about such things - it doesn't work very well. Instead, I considered academic studies of such programmes. What are the performance metrics such studies use? Pretty sensible ones actually:
(1) sexual activity
(2) use of prophylaxis
(3) pregnancy rates.
When I mentioned sexual abstinence in my reply, I wasn't saying that the purpose of the doll programme is to promote abstinence. I wasn't making a value judgement on the promotion of abstinence either (I will now - I agree with you, it's not effective and it's pushed by those with religious motives). I was quoting a result from one such study. I also mentioned the use of prophylaxis, which you ignored.

I can't find any evidence that your implication that there are no "other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes." In fact, I can't find any evidence that there are any such programmes which are effective - quite the opposite. (Well, I'll assume genital mutilation would do it, but it's frowned upon here.;) )

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I take it that you do not have a teenage daughter going on 17 :)

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I don't. I do however know how utterly useless it is to use anecdotal evidence to assess the performance of anything, from the use of debriefing in the aftermath of traumatic events to homoeopathy to assessing crime. I take it you're not an academic.

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I overreacted somewhat. My apologies.

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no problem.

But with haste to your next misunderstanding

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I can't find any evidence that your implication that there are no "other simple sex education programs that works for teenagers or that come even near the impact that the doll makes."

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For a self professed academic I am surprised to see you have a problem with interpreting what I actually wrote with a semblance of rationality or impartiality.
I never implied such a thing. I gave an example of a practical program. I asked you to offer examples that work or come near to having the same impact.

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When I mentioned sexual abstinence in my reply, I wasn't saying that the purpose of the doll programme is to promote abstinence. I wasn't making a value judgement on the promotion of abstinence either (I will now - I agree with you, it's not effective and it's pushed by those with religious motives). I was quoting a result from one such study. I also mentioned the use of prophylaxis, which you ignored.

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I offered a link in my first message, if you had bothered to have a look you would have seen what the Baby Doll is about and not bothered to offer a reference to an unhyperlinked study on the lack of effect of education on sexual abstinence. Less than absolutely irrelevant.
You made some obscure unlinked reference to studies in general.
The question that I have offered to answer in a very positive way is educating teenagers practically, in a deeper more subtle manner, strengtening the resolve of that choice not to get pregnant with absolutely no reference to methods re fertility, sexual habits, contraception or sexual abstinence.

To your Q on studies to support the effectiveness. You can request up to 20 studies from the makers, I don´t know what they are worth.
There are plenty of positive replies all over the internet on the effectiveness of this program from parents and educational establishments.
heres one
Some schools have reported a reduction of 50% in teenage pregnancies after they introduced this program. I don't know, I don't have any agenda except I have claimed based on my experience that it was effective in the school that my daughter goes to, so much so that the program has progressed to that they give credits to the teens to encourage them to participate. I have seen the sleepless girl thread on the students web over the past 3 years, there is no doubt in my mind that this program reinforces a decision not to get pregnant and in one fell swoop has done what I could not have had a hope to achieve.
For sheer revenge, as in a dish best served cold value, it is priceless. I haven't enjoyed such sadistic pleasure since Sept 2001 when we beat Holland.

In the original linked article although possibly not surprising very high percentage of African people affected with HIV. Does any one know if other countries medically screen immigrants. I am not suggesting it but would be surprised if some country was not doing it.

South Africa has a huge HIV/AIDs problem & condoms are free in the post offices. Ireland should provide similar system as would cost little (bulk purchase generic brand) & I can't see a downside. Morning after pill should be available direct from Pharmacy, no need for GP involvement as he/she is unlikely to deny & no guarantee woman is even a regular patient.

Prob only a matter of time
IPU on MAP availability