The Maze

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

The Maze proposal shows 3 or 4 access roads. How many are there at this latest alternative?

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Yeah, like one road in, one out, and a country lane.:)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Eh? Afaik, the nearest road which isn't a country lane or farm access track is the M1, which is over a mile from the site, and only has two lanes in each direction, despite serving as Belfast's main artery to the West (and a major exit route towards Dublin and the South).

Remember, the Maze Prison is on the site of an old WWII Airfield, built in the middle of farmland. (Sites for Prisons and Airfields are often chosen for their inaccessibility, rather than their accessibility! Such land is also invariably cheap as a consequence)

There isn't a railway line anywhere near, nor no plans or funds to build one. As for road access, the Roads Dept has never as yet allocated any of its already hugely overstretched budget to additional expenditure for access to the Maze.

And assuming anyone ever else got round to funding it, the only feasible access would be via a spur road from ther M1. With crowds of up to 35k for football, this must mean a minimum of 10k cars, all approaching from one of two directions (though the majority from the East) at the same time, and all hoping to arrive at pretty much the same time.

Afterwards, since there will be sod all to see/do on what is basically an industrial site, all will be starting up and hoping to depart at exactly the same time, along exactly the same spur road, in order to access one of two routes (E or W on the M1).

This alone is a recipe for disaster. But factor in midweek games in winter i.e. bad weather and after dark. Then consider that these will clash with the usual Belfast rush-hour exiting the city at exactly the same time. Then add e.g. an accident on the carriageway, or a security alert.

Trust me, whilst the diehards may still put up with this, the more casual/less committed fans will very soon get fed up with it, especially after they suffer their first couple of losses in what is liable to be a soulless, half-empty concrete bowl, with sightlines designed to suit GAA games.

No thanks.

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And the alternative?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

And the alternative?

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Plan for low crowds, once punters realise how unattractive and unaccessible the stadium is.

Or build it somewhere else (and save a fortune, into the bargain)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Plan for low crowds, once punters realise how unattractive and unaccessible the stadium is.

Or build it somewhere else (and save a fortune, into the bargain)

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The alternative I was refering to was the Blanchflower which seems to be the option going to be rolled out if the Maze gets a no.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

The alternative I was refering to was the Blanchflower which seems to be the option going to be rolled out if the Maze gets a no.

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I wouldn't be so certain that the Blanchflower will be football's fallback should the Maze get scrapped. Whilst there are some attractions, there are also drawbacks.

If the Maze were to get binned, this might be the encouragement Belfast City Council need to get their finger from their bum and come up with something better again.

As it happens, there are very few leading DUP figures - Dodds aside - who have any interest in football, so until now the party has been content to leave it to those with a vested interest in favour of the Maze (Poots, Donaldson) to make the running.

However, following recent developments (Paisley stepping down, IPJ, Dromore By-Election etc), my guess is that the DUP is suddenly fearing for its traditional support. Therefore, they have gone cold on the Maze essentially for political, rather than footballing or financial, reasons.

Therefore, not knowing much about football, they seized upon the Blanchflower Stadium since it is in East Belfast and the IFA already had plans for it (albeit much more modest). As a bonus, it could also suit the Glens.

In any case, even if the Maze were scrapped today, NI could carry on for another while at Windsor, which would allow time for a more measured search for a Belfast site. Indeed, we might even see Ormeau Park back in the running, since the chief obstacle to that was Paisley himself (too close to his Martyrs Memorial Church!), but he's now Yesterday's (Big) Man, as we all know!

Anyhow, wherever we end up, I can't think of many places in Belfast that wouldn't be infinitely better for NI football than the Maze. And I say that as a country boy, born and bred!

I think Windsor Park will be redeveloped now. Just have that feeling, based on nothing solid.

I do remember however saying on the old Irish League forums to Jim Gracey that the Maze stadium will never happen and in 10 years time Northern Ireland will still be talking about a new stadium away from Windsor.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Yeah, like one road in, one out, and a country lane.:)

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a lot of prisioners seemed to have no problem geting quick access out of it over the years :D:D:

A bit off topic I know but wasn't there talk of turning H3 into a museum I'm assuming this Idea will be scrapped if the stadium goes ahead

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

A bit off topic I know but wasn't there talk of turning H3 into a museum I'm assuming this Idea will be scrapped if the stadium goes ahead

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I think this is one of the major bones of contention that has seen the proposed stadium put on the backburner.

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Originally Posted by pól-dcfc

I think this is one of the major bones of contention that has seen the proposed stadium put on the backburner.

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Not one of the major "bones of contention" of the Amalgamation Of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs in their objections to The Maze site.

Certainly, a "bone of contention" amongst many individuals, who would feel that the building of a new sports stadium should not be inextricably linked to the horrors of our past "troubles".

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Not one of the major "bones of contention" of the Amalgamation Of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs in their objections to The Maze site.

Certainly, a "bone of contention" amongst many individuals, who would feel that the building of a new sports stadium should not be inextricably linked to the horrors of our past "troubles".

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should we not all move on from horrors of our past troubles !!
probally main reason not to many catholic supporters would travel to watch norn ireland at windsor park over the years was down to the horrors of our past troubles and unfortunatly were windsor park was situated :ball:

If Northern Ireland were to play their home games on the Falls Road you would still not get a substantial number of Catholic supporters. They are not going to support a country that they do not feel should exist.

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Originally Posted by David

If Northern Ireland were to play their home games on the Falls Road you would still not get a substantial number of Catholic supporters. They are not going to support a country that they do not feel should exist.

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fair point but i am sure there must be genuine fans out there who would go along and support :ball:

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Originally Posted by old git

fair point but i am sure there must be genuine fans out there who would go along and support :ball:

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What do you mean "Genuine fans" have to put football before their national Identity otherwise they can't consider them selves genuine ?
that post makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

What do you mean "Genuine fans" have to put football before their national Identity otherwise they can't consider them selves genuine ?
that post makes no sense at all.

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let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:

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Originally Posted by old git

let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:

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No, the reason Catholic fans won't support N Ireland is because we don't see it as at all representative of us. And it never will be. The majority of Catholics are Nationalists, and Nationalists don't believe that there should be a state called Norther Ireland. We identify with the Republic, which is turning out to be a All-Ireland team anyway.

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Originally Posted by old git

probally main reason not to many catholic supporters would travel to watch norn ireland at windsor park over the years was down to the horrors of our past troubles and unfortunatly were windsor park was situated :ball:

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On the simple point about where Windsor is situated, it never seemed to deter fans who are Catholic/Nationalist from attending in large numbers when the likes of Man U played prestige friendlies there.

Or, indeed, fans of clubs with predominantly Catholic/Nat support when playing Linfield, for that matter.

Curious, that. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pól-dcfc

No, the reason Catholic fans won't support N Ireland is because we don't see it as at all representative of us. And it never will be. The majority of Catholics are Nationalists, and Nationalists don't believe that there should be a state called Norther Ireland. We identify with the Republic, which is turning out to be a All-Ireland team anyway.

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I don't doubt that that holds true for a majority - maybe even the overwhelming majority - of Catholic/Nationalist fans.

But I hope you're not underestimating that section of the RC/Nat population which still does support NI (latent or active). There was a CAIN Survey from a while back (can't find it atm, unfortunately) which estimated that 8% of the spectators at NI Internationals were from an RC/Nat background.

Of course, although that means over 1,000 at every game, I accept that is still a very small percentage. However, the Report was from several years ago, when comditions were so much worse, both in football in particular, and in NI generally.

Now that there has been so much improvements (football and NI), there is lots of evidence of a return to the situation of earlier, pre-Troubles days, when the situation was much different. There is real demand for match tickets currently, which is being frustrated by capacity limitations at Windsor.
I have little doubt that at least some of that demand is coming from RC/Nats, so that if we did have a modern stadium, in the optimum location, that the latent, residual goodwill from that community of former days could be revitalised.

It is there today to an extent, it was there even during the bad old days of the 1980's, when at least our team was giving everyone something to cheer about and it was certainly there before The Troubles were even heard about.

On which last point, I recently came across a piece by NI Legend Bertie Peacock, who was also a star for Celtic at the time, and not one jot less popular in NI for it. Speaking of sectarianism etc in football at the time of the Lennon incident, his simple comment was:
''It certainly didn't go on in my day, I can tell you that.''

I live for the day when people from NI will decline to support the NI team for no other reason than that we're rubbish. It was the case before now, it can be the case in future.

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Originally Posted by old git

let me rephrase .. football fans the reason a lot of catholic football fans would not support norn ireland in the past was because of location of ground plus strong links with loyalists supporters / and a lot of players got terrible abuse from their own so called fans due to their relegion.. i remember back to world cup in 82 ( good times ) everybody seemed to have no problem getting behind their little team .. :ball:

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Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

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Originally Posted by David

Absolute nonsense, that has never been the case. A few players took abuse because of the team they played for (Celtic, Linfield etc) but never because of their religion.

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I noticed EalingGreen mention the abuse Pat Jennings got whilst playing for NI in another thread.
Why was he abused, do Northern Ireland fans not like Spurs or Arsenal as well as the above mentioned???