Secret All-Ireland league talks at 'advanced' stage

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Travel and associated costs make it a no-no below the top few clubs.

All Ireland League hasn't worked in the lower divisions in rugby for exactly these reasons.

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Well then ffs if they can't afford to travel on a small island like our own then let them die a natural death it would be better for the league in the long run. I think if it comes to the crunch these clubs will find the money and if they don't then tough. how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country. progress is painfull but we cant stand still because it wouldn't be fair for a few clubs to go bust, if goes on as it is much longer then all clubs will go bust eventually because the league WILL die

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country

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Can you explain how this is the case? There are lots of things holding back football in this country, but you've focused on the poor clubs. Which ones?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

My reading is that this is a breakaway League which will go ahead regardless of national association approval and with full knowledge that there may be no European representation.

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That sounds pretty reckless. You'd be effectively talking about a league that has no FIFA or UEFA recognition. It's pure speculation on my behalf but that could result in players in the league not being allowed to play at international level depriving the league of potential underage internationals.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Well then ffs if they can't afford to travel on a small island like our own then let them die a natural death it would be better for the league in the long run. I think if it comes to the crunch these clubs will find the money and if they don't then tough. how long are we going to let a few poorly run cash strapped clubs hold back football in this country. progress is painfull but we cant stand still because it wouldn't be fair for a few clubs to go bust, if goes on as it is much longer then all clubs will go bust eventually because the league WILL die

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Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?!

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

[QUOTE=OneRedArmy;836321]Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?![/QUOTE]

Not much less than there is to see Kildare v Kilkenny or Monaghan I'd say:)

I agree though. Any lower divisions should be regionalised.

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Originally Posted by Postman

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

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Cannot speak on behalf of all Linfield fans, so offer just my own opinion.

Providing the future of the Northern Ireland international team was "ringfenced", I would be broadly supportive of the concept of a full time, professional, AI League - I believe that it would progress Linfield Football Club to a new level.

It is also worth bearing in mind that relationships between Linfield FC and the IFA are somewhat strained at present - court case pending!

There is a lot of ill feeling amongst a section of the Linfield support towards the IFA - on my way to Institute a couple of Saturdays ago, I was lambasted on my SC bus by some of our club members for being a Norn Iron fan.:eek:

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Hang on.....you advocated three all Ireland divisions. Why don't we walk before we run and start with one division and see how that goes?

How much demand do you think there is to see Ballyclare Comrades vs Kildare County anyway?!

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I think something as drastic as a complete reform of the league structure is needed to re-invigorate football on this island north and south because constant tinkering (10 team league 12 team league summer football et al) and half measures (new superdooper FAI loi) have done jack to raise the profile of the league. to go back to your previous post about travel expenses I dont see how travelling to NI would be more expensive than say monaghan travelling to cobh to use just one example so if a club cant afford to travel to games within a league then they have no business being in such a league. its time to get ruthless, I personally feel that the public north and south would have a more interest in an all island league for the novelty factor to begin with but will stay when they realise the quality on offer

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Originally Posted by Postman

Can anyone see the nordie fans going for this? Linfield and Glentoran are probably the only ones who could hold their own in the long term, but wouldn't these fans be the staunchest loyalists around? Even if their respective clubs stood to make a packet and for the first time could really make an impact on Europe, could they get over their political hang ups, especially if it put the international future of their beloved Norn Iron in jeopardy? I seriously doubt it. Any Linfield fans on here who could shed some light on the matter for us?

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In fairness to Linfield and Glens (and Ports) fans I think the Setanta has proved that their political opinions haven't stopped them being fully behind an All Ireland competition.

However undoubtedly the future of the NI national team would be a big issue for them if was affected by plans for an All Ireland league.

Typical lunancy from those involved.

A fast track to potential financial meltdown. This from those who bought you
- “Summer football is the answer”
- “Merging with the FAI is the answer”

It is typical of the attitude amongst clubs that we can’t attempt to build for the future, we try and bust the gates open without thinking the thing through.

Most of those involved in the LOI are those who oppose the wage cap, after voting enthusiastically for the participation agreement, and berating those who raised genuine concerns. Rather than sit down and re-assess whether full time football is the answer, the Icarus complex in LOI boardrooms comes to the fore. “We’ll lose a €1m this year? Aye, sure we’ll just blow another fortune in an AIL”.

Think about the improvements we could have made to stadia and off the field infrastructure if we had stayed part time, rather than blowing huge sums of cash in wages on average players. It doesn’t matter if you are playing Linfield or Longford, if facilities and the “entertainment factor” aren’t there, the crowds will not return. This move may have saved the game in the 70s, but it wouldn’t now.

If the rumours are true there are some serious punters involved in this proposal and I’d wouldn’t be surprised it to be come to fruition.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Can you explain how this is the case? There are lots of things holding back football in this country, but you've focused on the poor clubs.

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I realise that there are more issues holding back football in this country but as ORA stated the main reason for not advocating an AI league was because some clubs would not be able to afford travel expenses I don't think this is a reason to scrap what could be a great opportunity to save football in this country. from time to time it is neccessary to trim off the dead leaves, having said that having a three division league will give the "lesser" clubs somwhere to go (ie dropping down a div) as apposed to being dumped into some make weight league outside of the main structure

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Which ones?

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you'd have to ask ORA that he's the one who thinks there are clubs who cannot afford to be in the league not me

I would agree with Not Brazil. Strongly in favour of AIL but on the basis that the two national teams remain. If they don't remain it won't happen, simple as that.

A first division N and first division S below the AIL premier division would have its attractions: we'd get much bigger crowds playing Armagh City say than say Waterford United. There would have to be a pyramid in place though.
There'd be bigger issues for the smaller clubs in the North though - they have many more small clubs for their population than down south and some would have to drop into Div 2 north.
The whole go it alone concept is interesting...would the teams really break away from their national associations? How would FAI/IFA/UEFA/FIFA react, and what could they do? Could they then restrict players registrations or something?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

That sounds pretty reckless. You'd be effectively talking about a league that has no FIFA or UEFA recognition. It's pure speculation on my behalf but that could result in players in the league not being allowed to play at international level depriving the league of potential underage internationals.

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Not reckless at all.

If you are of the firm belief that the only long-term future for football in Ireland is to have an all-island league, then what would be reckless would be for the associations to stand in the way of that development, and for clubs to just go 'ah well' if they do. If something is the right thing to do, you do it.

Secondly - withdrawal of European slots would be a threat/bargaining chip. In reality, it would make a laughing stock of the FAI and IFA in world football if they lost control of the senior level of football on this island. So in reality that won't happen. They may use European slots to try to scare and bully teams - they may even deny those slots for a year or two if an all-island league started without their consent. But sooner of later they'd have to cave in, as a football association that is excluded form the highest level of football in its own country is instantly meaningless. The FAI/IFA needs control of senior football on this island more than those senior teams need their brief flirtations with Euroopean fopotball once a year. Why else do you think the FA have caved in time and time again in English football ?

The relative position of power of the top clubs in England compared to the FA and the top Irish clubs compared to the FAI and the IFA are not the same. The FA needs those clubs on board and lot more than the Irish associations need theirs.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

But sooner of later they'd have to cave in, as a football association that is excluded form the highest level of football in its own country is instantly meaningless. The FAI/IFA needs control of senior football on this island more than those senior teams need their brief flirtations with European football once a year. Why else do you think the FA have caved in time and time again in English football ?

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I'm not so sure that the FAI need the clubs more than the clubs need them.

Given that the European performances are just "brief flirtations", the role they play in promoting the FAI is limited.

And I'd say the threat of no European places would stop a lot of players from wanting to play in the new league.

Looking at the worst case scenario if clubs and the FAI never agree, I'd say the clubs have more to lose.

And the English FA are dealing with clubs who provide the backbone of their national team, clubs who provide protracted and high-level exposure at European level, clubs with a high percentage of foreign internationals, circumstances which make it critical that the FA be involved. I don't think you can compare that with the eL.

On the question of how this affects the national teams, has it not been pointed out in the past that a national league is not required as long as a national association and national cup competition remains? Basically as long as the FAI and IFA cups are still played for the national teams will not be affected. Isn't this what happens in some of the smaller countries like Andorra? Sorry if I'm totally wrong, but nearly sure it was mentioned before.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

The relative position of power of the top clubs in England compared to the FA and the top Irish clubs compared to the FAI and the IFA are not the same. The FA needs those clubs on board and lot more than the Irish associations need theirs.

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That's absolutely the case. There's a strong and well founded suspicion that the real interest of the FAI begins and ends with the national team.

I'm not so sure of the extra attraction of an AIL anyhow. The Setanta has shown that people aren't falling over themselves, even to see the better Northern teams (the only exception to this might be Derry v Linfield.)

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

you'd have to ask ORA that he's the one who thinks there are clubs who cannot afford to be in the league not me

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Most clubs can't afford to be in the League as it is, never mind if you add in more time off work to be paid for players and longer journeys.

As Maribor says dose of financial reality required allround.

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Originally Posted by David

I would agree with Not Brazil. Strongly in favour of AIL but on the basis that the two national teams remain. If they don't remain it won't happen, simple as that.

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Would agree with that.