Ray Tracey on Drivetime Sport

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Originally Posted by MyTown

What struck me about the interview is that Giles left West Brom having finished 5th. in what would be now the Premier League to come home and take over in Milltown. Now fair enough, there were probably family reasons, but does it not appear to anyone as a huge step down, particularly given the fact that their time at Rovers was not a very happy one?

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Not as big a step-down as it might seem MyTown.

Firstly - the gulf between ourselves and England wasn't anywhere near as big in the 1970's as it is now. Irish teams were competing with top English and Scottish First Division sides in the Texaco Cup at the start of the 70's, for example, and that was only halted by the Troubles. The fact the likes of WBA were able to do well in that era also shows how the financial gap hadn't opened yet. It wasn't until the 80's that crowds went abysmal in Ireland (Cup Final crowds regularly below 10,000 for the first time, for example) - possibly because RTE/Network 2 started showing English games live. So it wasn't the huge step-down for Giles that it might at first have seemed.

Secondly - the fact that their time at Rovers was unhappy can't be brought into the equation, as they obviously had no expectation it would go so wrong for them.

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Originally Posted by onceahoop

John Giles quoted in "Who Stole Our Game". If you have the book go to Page 92 and read on.

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Read the book and it was low on detail as to the whole "Shamrock Rovers Experiment". Said that Giles was bitter baouot the whole affair but did not explain why it failed or what he was bitter about.

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

A totally unbiased view there, full of insight and not an ounce of wild conjecture.:rolleyes:

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LOL! Dont forget the smell of bitterness.

Treacy did try and promote getting a club into the scottish second alright but think it was after he got sacked at the RDS.

To this day Giles never ever mentions Shamrock Rovers despite his two sons going on to play for the club. His brother in law's son also played for Rovers.

KOH

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

A totally unbiased view there, full of insight and not an ounce of wild conjecture.:rolleyes:

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Apart from a bit of tongue in cheek about Giles expecting other clubs to lay down and present him with the league I would have thought that it is as unbiased a commentary that I can make through a red and black prism.:) Anyway BL you were there at the time ,as was I , and Giles was gutted by the lack of relative domestic success and the poor crowds, the 6-1 defeat by Ostrava was a low point. (Didn`t he get upset by the reaction to his son Michael playing too or was that later?).
Ironically if an equivalent Irish player of Giles`s international reputation were to throw in their lot with an EL club today it would really kick the league forward. Back then there was a minimum of ambition, now with clubs like Bohs, cork and Pats(who knew!) with money behind them (or in front of them,) a Giles like intervention with Rovers or Derry , Dundalk ( go on Stan!) or Drogs could result in an ambitious competitive league.

BTW Wasn`t it Seanan o Duachain who was connected to Treacys daughter?

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;771140]Not as big a step-down as it might seem MyTown.

It wasn't until the 80's that crowds went abysmal in Ireland

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Can anybody else who attended Lof I matches in the 70`s set the record straight on this?. Lwtv`s The Big Match destroyed Sunday afternoon crowds in the `70`s, there were only 2/3 grounds with functioning floodlights at the time, so night games were not an option. Drums final season had a couple of hundred at games, ditto Shels in the late 70`s
Cup final crowds were the exception ( though Shels v Home FARM Final only had a crowd of 10,000 ;2-3,000 following Shels and every Lof I fan in Dublin supporting Home Farm for the day. Home Farms ECWC game v Racing Cub Paris had about 1,500 at it.
Not that this is now a golden era or anything but it`s a lot better than it was in the `7o `s and early 80`s

Shamrock Rovers were always the darlings of the Dublin press which made a victory over the hoops all the sweeter. On this occassion the club was being re-shaped. Johnny Giles had returned from England and was given the brief of turning Shams into one of the top teams in Europe. The club became a full-time professional outfit and Giles recruited seasoned international players such as Ray Treacy and Eamonn Dunphy to help achieve his aims. On a rain sodden Sunday afternoon Giles' team was outplayed by the men from the north-west only to be defeated by the worst piece of refereeing witnessed by any Rovers fan. The name of John Carpenter is infamous among Rovers fans for his display in this game. With three minutes of injury time played in the first half Shams winger Steve Lynex ran into the box with Rovers full-back Paul Fielding sheperding him towards the line. With little or no contact Lynex went down and Mr. Carpenter pointed to the spot. Ray Treacy converted the penalty.

In the second half Rovers pushed forward looking for an equaliser. On two occasions Gary Hulmes was clear through put couldn't finish. Shams keeper Alan O'Neill produced an excellent display of goalkeeping to deny Rovers time and again. Shams held on for victory and for Rovers this was the bitterest pill of all. The penalty decision itself was a disgrace but this was only half the story. No trainer had been on the pitch in the first half. To add insult to injury Mr. Carpenter explained that the three minutes injury time was added on for time-wasting by Shamrock Rovers !! It later transpired that the referee had taken the pitch without his referee's card and he was disqualified as a result. Visits to the Showgrounds became even more uncomfortable for Giles and his men after this game.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~sjgarvey/H...htm#holy_grail

[QUOTE=Dalymountrower;771355]

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Not as big a step-down as it might seem MyTown.

It wasn't until the 80's that crowds went abysmal in Ireland

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Can anybody else who attended Lof I matches in the 70`s set the record straight on this?. Lwtv`s The Big Match destroyed Sunday afternoon crowds in the `70`s, there were only 2/3 grounds with functioning floodlights at the time, so night games were not an option. Drums final season had a couple of hundred at games, ditto Shels in the late 70`s
Cup final crowds were the exception ( though Shels v Home FARM Final only had a crowd of 10,000 ;2-3,000 following Shels and every Lof I fan in Dublin supporting Home Farm for the day. Home Farms ECWC game v Racing Cub Paris had about 1,500 at it.
Not that this is now a golden era or anything but it`s a lot better than it was in the `7o `s and early 80`s

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To set a couple of matters straight:

1. Banks played for St.Pats during 1977/78 (same season as when Giles returned)

2.Rovers ie Shamrock Rovers were the better side in the '78 final and would of won anyway, plus it was IMO a clear penalty...but hey you got your revenge this year.

3. The crowds were falling off from the start of the 1970's. I atended a Rovers game against Athlone town in 1974 and there were 67 at it....yes you read that correctly.So the serious dowward trend commencedduring the 70's.I was also at the Home Farm ECWC match you mentioned and indeed the crowd was crap

4. All the other teams especially the culchies loved to beat Rovers during the Giles era (nothing much has changed)... for our first league game away under him approx 4,000 turned up at Oriel park (we drew 1-1 Leech scored ours).

5.I don't think Giles was particularily bitter...and he did bring on a number of youg players who went on to have great careers... Jim Beglin, Liam Buckley (save you breath Shels fans), Alan O'Neill , ritchie Bayly and that all time great Pierce O'Leary

The crowds disappeared almost overnight in the early 1970s, thanks largely (in Dublin) to The Big Match, Rovers sliding into obscurity, Drums folding, and the Dubs' revival.
One point, though. The attendances weren't always that good. Sure, you'd get 15-20,000 and more for big games, but at Rovers (for example) there was always plenty of bare terracing at other games. 5-6,000 was the norm.
I remember being at Milltown in 1971 when 22,000 saw us play Cork Hibs, 28,000 were at the play-off between the two clubs that April and - as Calcio Jack points out - by the time we played Athlone on Grand National Day 1977 the attendance was tiny. I was there too. Ironically, that was Rovers' last home game before Giles arrived.
Giles spent a lot of his own money on Rovers and his efforts - even though they ended in failure - have to be applauded. It was a very brave move at the worst possible time, and he gave it six years before jacking it in.
His legacy was a good chunk of the four-in-a-row team: Liam Buckley, Alan Campbell, Harry Kenny, Peter Eccles and John Coady all came through during his reign. So it wasn't all in vain.
Honestly, I can't understand why he wasn't more successful, although the initial plans (making a breakthrough in Europe, turning Milltown into a 50,000-capacity stadium) were overly ambitious; he seemed to want to run before learning to crawl.
Rovers had a full-time set-up, educational opportunities for young players, and there were some pretty good players there - but the attitude around the league at the time was 'who does this jumped-up little fcuker think he is?' I'd no problem with that - it doesn't matter what other people think, especially if they're idiots, just do what you believe in and ignore the cynics and fools - but I feel Giles had a desire to be appreciated, which wasn't possible in the dark days of the 1970s, when any sign ambition in Ireland was frowned upon.
And yes, SOD went out with Ray's daughter. The poor guy got lashed out of it!

Just regarding Giles the manager at Rovers, is it just possible that Jim McLaughlin was a better manager! ;)

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

Lwtv`s The Big Match destroyed Sunday afternoon crowds in the `70`s, there were only 2/3 grounds with functioning floodlights at the time, so night games were not an option.

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To set the record straight on this, and my biggest gripe about the "Who Stole Our Game" book, "The Big Match" was a highlights show for most of its life, a poor man's Match of the Day and I'm pretty sure it was on around 12 or 1pm. It only showed live games from 1983 onwards, and even then not every Sunday. Form Wikipedia (ok, not the most reliable but correct in this case):

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The demand for football grew through the 1970s and early 1980s, and the decision to start screening live league matches was almost inevitable; a deal was struck for the start of the 1983-84 season and the first live league match since 1960 was screened on ITV, between Tottenham Hotspur and Nottingham Forest, on October 2, 1983.

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

My uncle got thrown out of the Dail because of this.

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Because of what ? :confused:

This thread....!? :eek: ;)

On the crowds in the 70's- would it not be the case that crowds in Dublin were crap, but at the Regional clubs were very good?

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Originally Posted by Billy Lord

The crowds disappeared almost overnight in the early 1970s, thanks largely (in Dublin) to The Big Match, Rovers sliding into obscurity, Drums folding, and the Dubs' revival.
One point, though. The attendances weren't always that good. Sure, you'd get 15-20,000 and more for big games, but at Rovers (for example) there was always plenty of bare terracing at other games. 5-6,000 was the norm.
I remember being at Milltown in 1971 when 22,000 saw us play Cork Hibs, 28,000 were at the play-off between the two clubs that April and - as Calcio Jack points out - by the time we played Athlone on Grand National Day 1977 the attendance was tiny. I was there too. Ironically, that was Rovers' last home game before Giles arrived.
Giles spent a lot of his own money on Rovers and his efforts - even though they ended in failure - have to be applauded. It was a very brave move at the worst possible time, and he gave it six years before jacking it in.
His legacy was a good chunk of the four-in-a-row team: Liam Buckley, Alan Campbell, Harry Kenny, Peter Eccles and John Coady all came through during his reign. So it wasn't all in vain.
Honestly, I can't understand why he wasn't more successful, although the initial plans (making a breakthrough in Europe, turning Milltown into a 50,000-capacity stadium) were overly ambitious; he seemed to want to run before learning to crawl.
Rovers had a full-time set-up, educational opportunities for young players, and there were some pretty good players there - but the attitude around the league at the time was 'who does this jumped-up little fcuker think he is?' I'd no problem with that - it doesn't matter what other people think, especially if they're idiots, just do what you believe in and ignore the cynics and fools - but I feel Giles had a desire to be appreciated, which wasn't possible in the dark days of the 1970s, when any sign ambition in Ireland was frowned upon.
And yes, SOD went out with Ray's daughter. The poor guy got lashed out of it!

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I was there also Billy in 1971,(Moved down to the country in 75 to 77), On the Miltown Road end. Waterford, Cork Hibs/Cork Celtic and Shels were the big attractions then. You needed to be in the ground about two hours before kick off to be able to see those games.

Dunphy is quoted in the book as saying that players greed drove him out. They were putting in for fictitious overtime losses from work etc. I seem to remember sometime in the late seventies there appeared to be a standard signing on fee of €3000. Think Fran Gavin picked up a few of them.

The Big match was shown in the afternoon if I remember rightly, about 3pm. Attendances really dropped dramatically then.

I think you're right when you say it was a brave move but at the wrong time and he left a great legacy for Jim McLoughlin.

I wonder will we ever see crowds like it again.
"Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end."

They said Milltown could hold 24,000. I can see it know as I write. I've got the shivers just thinking about it. What a waste.

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

To set the record straight on this, and my biggest gripe about the "Who Stole Our Game" book, "The Big Match" was a highlights show for most of its life, a poor man's Match of the Day and I'm pretty sure it was on around 12 or 1pm. It only showed live games from 1983 onwards, and even then not every Sunday. Form Wikipedia (ok, not the most reliable but correct in this case):

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What was then called 'piped TV' (ie: cable) arrived circa 1971, and it meant that The Big Match quickly became a staple of Sunday afternoon viewing. The programme was around long before 1983.
Poor man's MOTD maybe, but it was football in your sitting room, as opposed to going out to Milltown or Tolka. Anyone under 40 has no idea of how much of an impact that had. It was like Elvis performing his greatest hits in your gaff - so why bother going out to see the local bands?

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Originally Posted by Mr A

On the crowds in the 70's- would it not be the case that crowds in Dublin were crap, but at the Regional clubs were very good?

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Nah. All clubs enjoyed fluctuating attendances, and it remains today and in other sports. It seems to be an Irish thing that most people only want to go to 'big' games - look at inter-county GAA attendances: 1,000 one week, 30-60,000 the next. Leinster need three stadiums because their fans pick and choose their games, and their crowds go from a few thousand to a full Lansdowne Road.
English football fans are amazingly loyal; thy love going every week, regardless. Respect. That's what supporting a club is all about.
We're a terribly fickle bunch. Insecurity rather than devotion still drives us as a sporting nation.

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Originally Posted by onceahoop

They said Milltown could hold 24,000. I can see it know as I write. I've got the shivers just thinking about it. What a waste.

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24,000 at a League of Ireland game. I can only imagine it! That sounds like heaven! I hope it happens again because I want to experience it!

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Originally Posted by Bucky-O'Hare

24,000 at a League of Ireland game. I can only imagine it! That sounds like heaven! I hope it happens again because I want to experience it!

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I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see those type of crowds for literally decades. The simple reason being that there is no stadium capable of hosting such attendances, and none are planned or considered necessary by even our most ambitious and best supported clubs.

Luckily I have the memory of the early Derry City years in the mid-to-late 1980's to keep the aul' memory bank happy. 10,000 full-house at every home game, 3-4,000 at every away game (depending on the opposition and location) - bigger crowds for cup games and finals. Magical days that no EL club will see again for some time, let alone crowds of 25,000 for league games.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see those type of crowds for literally decades. The simple reason being that there is no stadium capable of hosting such attendances, and none are planned or considered necessary by even our most ambitious and best supported clubs.

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Our new owners want a 28-30,000 seater. Looking for a site but how long it will take and whether it will come to fruition or not is another thing.

Still its ambitious

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Originally Posted by micls

Our new owners want a 28-30,000 seater. Looking for a site but how long it will take and whether it will come to fruition or not is another thing.

Still its ambitious

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Any money you like that there won't be a dedicated Cork City stadium of that size in the next decade (if not for many more decades after) !

Sure munster rugby don't even have anywhere near that...!

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

To set the record straight on this, and my biggest gripe about the "Who Stole Our Game" book, "The Big Match" was a highlights show for most of its life, a poor man's Match of the Day and I'm pretty sure it was on around 12 or 1pm. It only showed live games from 1983 onwards, and even then not every Sunday. Form Wikipedia (ok, not the most reliable but correct in this case):

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I dont think so, i thought it was a decent enough programme at the time, it did exactly what it said on the tin.........live football
MOTD is rubbish compared to it...............

i remember when The Big Match was on the box................every young fella was glued to it................so i can imagine it must have had a terrible effect on the LOI

does anyone know at about what time did people start travelling en masse to British clubs................surely the prices of cheap airlines tickets also had a huge influence on the attendances at LOI games