Worst fans in Europe - Liverpool

To be fair Steve you've lived over here. You aren't the Youtube hooligan expert I had you down as:D ....though you are a Man U fan:confused:

Lets be fair, a situation where good fans like Reder can't get a ticket despite being a season ticket holder needs changing. Milan couldn't sell their allocation...but why did these tickets end up back on the black market. I appreciate that not all season ticket holders can get tickets but most of Milan's sent back tickets should have been given to real footy fans like Reder. If Man U reached the final next year and you were in Reder's position you would feel the same. This helped cause the frenzy outside the stadium.

The Red Army were renowned as one of the hardest football firms in Britain. What happened at Heysel was an absolute disgrace and taints Liverpool's reputation...but it could have just as easily been Man U fans that charged at the Juve fans.

The songs about Busby are a disgrace, especially seeing as he was a Liverpool great before the war. However, its tit for tat between both sets of supporters. That doesn't justify it but neither set of fans are better than each other. What happened to Smith was disgusting but if Jamie Carragher's ambulance was outside Old Trafford, would it have been left alone by the peace loving Mancs:D I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Regarding Heysel, that was another **** up by UEFA.The game was played in a ruined stadium. The Italians baited the Liverpool fans who charged at them. Charging at the opposition was a weekly ritual at all grounds in Britian at this time....it could so easily have been any other British club.

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That's a pile of ****e. Because the stadium was a mess (and it was a disastrous dump), there's an excuse for murdering 39 people? Complete nonsense that's typical of the attitude of many Liverpool fans who couldn't understand the reaction to the 'Amicizia' rubbish at the CL game against Juventus two years ago.

I don't think Liverpool fans are any worse than anyone else but the continued whitewash of Heysel does them no favours.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

That's a pile of ****e. Because the stadium was a mess (and it was a disastrous dump), there's an excuse for murdering 39 people? Complete nonsense that's typical of the attitude of many Liverpool fans who couldn't understand the reaction to the 'Amicizia' rubbish at the CL game against Juventus two years ago.

I don't think Liverpool fans are any worse than anyone else but the continued whitewash of Heysel does them no favours.

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1000% Spot On

I'm not defending Heysel. The fact is that the stadium wasn't fit to host a European Cup final.If it had been, nobody would have died in my opinion.

The Juve fans had been throwing bricks at the Liverpool fans and they charged at them. Charging was common practice at that time in British football. Both sets of fans were bricking each other. Where did they get the bricks? Prior to the game, Liverpool expressed major concern about the stadium. I also recall the BBC journalists saying the same thing on the day.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

I'm not defending Heysel. The fact is that the stadium wasn't fit to host a European Cup final.If it had been, nobody would have died in my opinion.

The Juve fans had been throwing bricks at the Liverpool fans and they charged at them. Charging was common practice at that time in British football. Both sets of fans were bricking each other. Where did they get the bricks? Prior to the game, Liverpool expressed major concern about the stadium. I also recall the BBC journalists saying the same thing on the day.

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Jesus Wept

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Originally Posted by Bungle

The Juve fans had been throwing bricks at the Liverpool fans and they charged at them. Charging was common practice at that time in British football.

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Nowadays of course British football has banished charging through walls and replaced it with charging through the roof! ;)

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Originally Posted by Bungle

I'm not defending Heysel. The fact is that the stadium wasn't fit to host a European Cup final.If it had been, nobody would have died in my opinion.

The Juve fans had been throwing bricks at the Liverpool fans and they charged at them. Charging was common practice at that time in British football. Both sets of fans were bricking each other. Where did they get the bricks? Prior to the game, Liverpool expressed major concern about the stadium. I also recall the BBC journalists saying the same thing on the day.

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I blame the bricks, they're a bad influence.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

To be fair Steve you've lived over here. You aren't the Youtube hooligan expert I had you down as:D ....though you are a Man U fan:confused:

Lets be fair, a situation where good fans like Reder can't get a ticket despite being a season ticket holder needs changing. Milan couldn't sell their allocation...but why did these tickets end up back on the black market. I appreciate that not all season ticket holders can get tickets but most of Milan's sent back tickets should have been given to real footy fans like Reder. If Man U reached the final next year and you were in Reder's position you would feel the same. This helped cause the frenzy outside the stadium.

The Red Army were renowned as one of the hardest football firms in Britain. What happened at Heysel was an absolute disgrace and taints Liverpool's reputation...but it could have just as easily been Man U fans that charged at the Juve fans.

The songs about Busby are a disgrace, especially seeing as he was a Liverpool great before the war. However, its tit for tat between both sets of supporters. That doesn't justify it but neither set of fans are better than each other. What happened to Smith was disgusting but if Jamie Carragher's ambulance was outside Old Trafford, would it have been left alone by the peace loving Mancs:D I don't think so.

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Certainly I do agree there should have been more tickets and it's ashame many season ticket holders didn't get a ticket but that doesn't excuse robbing off there own fans, storming the stadium etc.

But lets not forget that not only where UEFA and Liverpool fans at fault. So where Liverpool FC. The reason for this is you had only 17,000 tickets and Liverpool GAVE 6,000 to Corporate people. Maybe Liverpool FC should think about the amount they allocate to non-supporters as well.

There are many questions to be asked about the organisation of this, which I do agree was a shambles.(even though I think Liverpool supporters have to shoulder a lot of the blame)

In regards to season ticket holders not being able to get tickets. There has to be some sort of system where the supporters who travel get first preference.

The reason for this is because Man Utd has 65,000+ Season ticket holders. There isn't a stadium in the world where all 65,000 could get tickets so there has to be some sort of system to sort this out(which is currently there I believe). So although it's frustrating for a lot of Season ticket holders, unfortunately that's the price you pay for supporting a well supported club.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

That's a pile of ****e. Because the stadium was a mess (and it was a disastrous dump), there's an excuse for murdering 39 people? Complete nonsense that's typical of the attitude of many Liverpool fans who couldn't understand the reaction to the 'Amicizia' rubbish at the CL game against Juventus two years ago.

I don't think Liverpool fans are any worse than anyone else but the continued whitewash of Heysel does them no favours.

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When exactly did this "murder" take place. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Certainly I do agree there should have been more tickets and it's ashame many season ticket holders didn't get a ticket but that doesn't excuse robbing off there own fans, storming the stadium etc.

But lets not forget that not only where UEFA and Liverpool fans at fault. So where Liverpool FC. The reason for this is you had only 17,000 tickets and Liverpool GAVE 6,000 to Corporate people. Maybe Liverpool FC should think about the amount they allocate to non-supporters as well.

There are many questions to be asked about the organisation of this, which I do agree was a shambles.(even though I think Liverpool supporters have to shoulder a lot of the blame)

In regards to season ticket holders not being able to get tickets. There has to be some sort of system where the supporters who travel get first preference.

The reason for this is because Man Utd has 65,000+ Season ticket holders. There isn't a stadium in the world where all 65,000 could get tickets so there has to be some sort of system to sort this out(which is currently there I believe). So although it's frustrating for a lot of Season ticket holders, unfortunately that's the price you pay for supporting a well supported club.

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Excellent post. Steve Bruce has hit on a piece of this whole saga that seems to have been lost amidst all the uefa and Liverpool fans issues. Rick Parry and they club pretty much encouraged fans to travel ticketless. Instead of saying "If you dont have a ticket dont travel", he came out with a statement along the lines of "No matter what our fans will get the ticket and we will have 40,000 in the ground, just like Istanbul". I think this was a really irresponsible statement.

As Steve said, the "Liverpool family" got 6,000. Each of the 1st team squad players got 50 each, the staff and people with even the most slender link to the club got tickets (EG. a guy who did a small amount of work on the website I know of, got a 4 tickets.) Far less than 10,000 of the 17,000 tickets actually went to proper fans at the end of the day.

In summataion, for one second I would not condone the actions of those liverpool "fans" who robbed tickets and charged into the ground. If we could get rid of people like them from the club, I would forefit winning any trophy for the next 5 years but this title of the "Worst fans in Europe" is utter rubbish when you compare us to the Italians, turks, Feyenoord of this continent.

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Originally Posted by reder

Excellent post. Steve Bruce has hit on a piece of this whole saga that seems to have been lost amidst all the uefa and Liverpool fans issues. Rick Parry and they club pretty much encouraged fans to travel ticketless. Instead of saying "If you dont have a ticket dont travel", he came out with a statement along the lines of "No matter what our fans will get the ticket and we will have 40,000 in the ground, just like Istanbul". I think this was a really irresponsible statement.

As Steve said, the "Liverpool family" got 6,000. Each of the 1st team squad players got 50 each, the staff and people with even the most slender link to the club got tickets (EG. a guy who did a small amount of work on the website I know of, got a 4 tickets.) Far less than 10,000 of the 17,000 tickets actually went to proper fans at the end of the day.

In summataion, for one second I would not condone the actions of those liverpool "fans" who robbed tickets and charged into the ground. If we could get rid of people like them from the club, I would forefit winning any trophy for the next 5 years but this title of the "Worst fans in Europe" is utter rubbish when you compare us to the Italians, turks, Feyenoord of this continent.

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To be fair, I being a WUM about this. You really couldn't compare any english club with the Turks, Italians and Feyenord.

Here is a well balanced piece on the whole thing. It admits we have our bad elements but put things into context.
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Cheap shot from a cowardly crew
5th June 2007
Des Kelly
The Daily Mail

Hand me a felt pen. If UEFA want to tag Liverpool fans as the worst in Europe then it is only right they should be rewarded for this lazy insult with a cheap label of their own. And here it is: "The biggest cowards in football."

See how easy it is to throw insults around? Stung by criticism of the ticketing arrangements and chaotic crowd control at the Champions League Final in Athens, Michel Platini's administration has proved to be astonishingly unstatesmanlike with its response.

Rather than examine the problems like a sensible governing body should, UEFA decided to stamp their feet, squeal "it's so unfair!" and trot out deliberately sensationalist claptrap to try to divert attention elsewhere.

The communications director of European football, William Gaillard, actually said this about the followers of Liverpool: "What other set of fans steal tickets from their fellow supporters or out of the hands of children?"

Dunno William. But a few, I'd guess. Even if a couple of kids did have their tickets robbed on the night, let's compare this sensationalist, unsubstantiated and, frankly, silly accusation with some of the crimes that have been perpetrated by the followers of a few other teams across Europe recently.

I'm thinking specifically about the murder of a policeman at an Italian stadium when a homemade bomb blew up in his face.

Then there was the French gendarme almost killed by German thugs. The routine and quite blatant racism at some Spanish and Eastern European grounds, a blight that UEFA have feebly failed to tackle.

The tendency of the Roman riot squad to beat visiting supporters senseless for no obvious reason. The attack on a referee in Denmark this week. I could go on.

When judged against that pile of paperwork sitting in UEFA's file marked "Trouble", I'd say snatching a ticket from some nipper might rank as a relatively minor offence. But Gaillard appears peculiarly keen to hype up any English problem.

He adds: "There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report. Most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."

This is an interesting claim.

William has obviously never tried to slip away from a Lazio game while trying to avoid the inconvenience of a sharp blade in the buttock.

Nor can he have danced through the streets of Marseilles as residents added a splash of local colour by throwing bottles.

But what about those 25 incidents said by UEFA to involve Liverpool over the past four years? We await the details.

English football will have the chance to verify the substance of these charges when the "undercover report" is handed to Sports Minister Richard Caborn today.

If many prove to be as minor as his ticket- snatching accusation then Gaillard had better look out. His job is in jeopardy, or at least it should be.

Particularly as he made this rather contradictory pronouncement before the Champions League Final: "The two groups of supporters have a tradition of good behaviour and at this point we are expecting that to continue."

A tradition of good behaviour or the worst in Europe? He just can't make his mind up. Perhaps William is just overwrought and in need of a lie down in a darkened room. For 20 years or so.

Let me make one thing clear. Nobody in their right mind doubts Liverpool fans were partly to blame for the disturbances in Athens.

Too many turned up without tickets, some tried to bribe, fake, cheat and steal their way into the ground, even if it meant that a fellow supporter would lose their own legitimate place.

Sadly, like all big clubs, Liverpool has its fair share of scumbags. It also has more than its reasonable quota of people who believe it is their divine right to see the game by whatever means possible.

This is not a new phenomenon. As the crowds hustled towards the old Wembley 18 years ago, I watched one ticketless Liverpool fan vault over the barrier and make a run for it.

Three more were busy scrambling up the outside wall, attempting to break in through the stairwell above.

I vividly remember these scenes even now for one particular reason.

It happened at the FA Cup Final on Saturday, May 20, 1989. Thirty five days after Hillsborough.

With the emotional wounds of that day still horribly raw for so many people, it seemed inconceivable to me that a few would be so selfish when Merseyside was gathering to offer its respects.

I was amazed at their stupidity, their insensitivity. But it would have been ridiculous and lazy to talk about "Liverpool fans shaming the club".

It was one knot of irresponsible idiots, cretins who were completely unrepresentative of the mood of the city.

Yet, spin forward nearly two decades and UEFA believe they are justified in using the same kind of warped logic to damn an entire club. Why? Because they must know they are at least as culpable for the problems and want to shift the blame.

UEFA's distribution of the tickets was woefully inadequate, creating an unprecedented demand. The stadium itself was ill-equipped to handle such a high-profile event - it had no turnstiles for starters.

The policing and security was said by most observers to be haphazard at best, panicked and belligerent at worst.

In this kind of environment, no wonder chaos reigned; no wonder fans with tickets found they were excluded; no wonder some cheats tried to exploit this lack of order.

Milan didn't even sell their ticket allocation. Just imagine the scenario if two English clubs had made the final and Manchester United had played Liverpool instead?

Cheap as they were, the effects of Gaillard's remarks are potentially catastrophic. With one sloppy, stupid statement he has increased the temperature right across Europe.

Supporters from Liverpool or any other English club travelling abroad can now expect to be met by an even greater level of hostility, to be herded and detained like cattle, baton-charged, penned in and locked in their coaches or trains.

Good or bad, it doesn't matter. Liverpool fans are "the worst". English fans are the "worst". So they 'deserve' what they get.

Sometimes it's true. But not always and UEFA are spineless if they hide behind insults instead of dealing with the real issues.

[QUOTE=reder;698518]Here is a well balanced piece on the whole thing. It admits we have our bad elements but put things into context....
[QUOTE]

There's not much I can disagree with there

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Originally Posted by Roadend

When exactly did this "murder" take place. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

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Are you saying that Liverpool's hooligans accidently killed the 38 Italians (and one Irish man)

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Originally Posted by Roadend

When exactly did this "murder" take place. Do you even have a clue what you are talking about?

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Jesus H Christ man shut up would you, you're actually lowering the tone of an already bargain basement discussion

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Originally Posted by jebus

Jesus H Christ man shut up would you, you're actually lowering the tone of an already bargain basement discussion

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Some forumer came out and said clearly that one set of fans murdered another.

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Originally Posted by Roadend

Some forumer came out and said clearly that one set of fans murdered another.

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As I said, it was already a bargain basement discussion before you chipped in defending Liverpool's actions that night under a guise of being upset at the term 'murder'. All that matters about Heysel is that because of the actions of a large section of Liverpool supporters that night 39 people ae no longer with us, thats all, whether murder is a harsh term or not is missing the point entirely

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Are you saying that Liverpool's hooligans accidently killed the 38 Italians (and one Irish man)

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Originally Posted by jebus

Jesus H Christ man shut up would you, you're actually lowering the tone of an already bargain basement discussion

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I can see this getting closed soon... :o

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Originally Posted by Schumi

the continued whitewash of Heysel does them no favours.

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It's true that the club and fans are under the table about what happened at Heysel, but should you admit to looking at, or be seen with a copy of a certain newspaper that wrote incomprehensible rubbish about another disaster many years ago, that's much more important. :rolleyes:

And before some go off on a rant about how awful the paper is, and what it printed; we've read it all before, so we don't have to again.

The greek police have confirmed that some individuals forced themselves into the stadium using fraudulent means.... Kewell and Zendan being the worst offenders.:p

i had to