FA Cup Final

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21/05/2007, 8:18 PM
fergalr

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

Aston Villa vs Chelsea was far, far worse than that. Saturday's game was exciting compared to it, and I'm not exaggerating.

Truest words spoken so far. The white suited Liverpool v Man U was also much worse.

The real dullness on Saturday was in the first half. Mourinho calculated correctly that Manu are not an attacking team - they are only effective as a counter-attacking team. So the Chelsea tactics were to not to lose the ball in dangerous areas and always to have 6 ready to defend (doubling up out wide). Ferguson's mistake was that he hasn't studied Benitez.

Lets hope the new Landsdowne Road is half the stadium the new Wembley is - the only thing that we can improve on is the bar service.
22/05/2007, 12:01 PM
superfrank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

It adds to the school of thought that the bigger teams don't appear to put as much credence on the FA Cup as in the past. Perhaps the pursuit of the Champions League can account for this.

Sorry this is far from true. It's obvious that Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are the Big 4 in England. Since Everton won it in 1995, one of these four has won the cup every single year. Occasionally (1996, 2002, 2005, 2007) it's been between two of the Big 4. So to argue that they don't put so much into is just stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

Aston Villa vs Chelsea was far, far worse than that. Saturday's game was exciting compared to it, and I'm not exaggerating.

I thought the Aston Villa Liverpool match was the worst. 0-0. First chance came in the 86th minute. Terrible.

Personally, I'm delighted to win the FA Cup. When I was younger and Chelsea would struggle, it was the one trophy I thought we had a chance of winning. I thought it was fairly even matched game but that Man U couldn't pace themselves as well as Chelsea did. Once Chelsea scored Man U never looked like getting the ball in. They all seemed to give up. Ronaldo was very poor on Saturday.
22/05/2007, 12:33 PM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrank

Personally, I'm delighted to win the FA Cup.

Congratulations Mr Lampard. :D
22/05/2007, 12:57 PM
Wolfie

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrank

Sorry this is far from true. It's obvious that Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are the Big 4 in England. Since Everton won it in 1995, one of these four has won the cup every single year. Occasionally (1996, 2002, 2005, 2007) it's been between two of the Big 4. So to argue that they don't put so much into is just stupid.

Apologies for having the temerity in questioning the FA Cups current standing.

My point is that the FA Cup would be third in the above teams list of competition priorities for any given season. The Champions League has pushed the FA Cup down the pecking order.

The fact that one of these four have won the FA Cup every single year points more to the huge chasm between the top of the Premiership and the rest. Win a couple of FA Cup ties, sometimes against teams from lower divisions, and you're into the latter stages for feck sake.

Chelsea will still consider this season a failure as they haven't secured either of the trophies they set their sights on - The Premiership and the Champions League.
22/05/2007, 1:36 PM
superfrank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Chelsea will still consider this season a failure as they haven't secured either of the trophies they set their sights on - The Premiership and the Champions League.

I agree. As a Chelsea fan, I wanted the Premiership back. I'm not too bothered about winning the CL. I know other ones want the two and it's clear the club wanted the CL too. So for me the season was a failure. That's why it was nice to get one over Man U and SAF. :D
22/05/2007, 4:59 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrank

Sorry this is far from true. It's obvious that Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool are the Big 4 in England. Since Everton won it in 1995, one of these four has won the cup every single year. Occasionally (1996, 2002, 2005, 2007) it's been between two of the Big 4. So to argue that they don't put so much into is just stupid.

I wouldn't put Chelsea's success in that category as they weren't one of the top teams in England when they were victorious.
22/05/2007, 6:48 PM
fergalr

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

I wouldn't put Chelsea's success in that category as they weren't one of the top teams in England when they were victorious.

If you're referring to the 1997 win then fair enough, but just about. That cup win was the first tangible result of the so-called Marriot Accord of 1995 which set out the plan for Chelsea to become one of the tops teams in Europe. Since that date in May 1997 Chelsea have been in the select group of 4 - the only English teams that win trophies (the plural is deliberate).
22/05/2007, 7:09 PM
ColinR

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergalr

If you're referring to the 1997 win then fair enough, but just about. That cup win was the first tangible result of the so-called Marriot Accord of 1995 which set out the plan for Chelsea to become one of the tops teams in Europe. Since that date in May 1997 Chelsea have been in the select group of 4 - the only English teams that win trophies (the plural is deliberate).

when chelsea won in 2000 they were after finishing 5th (leeds were a top 4 team that year!) , they then finished 6th in both years following that - in 2000-01 they finished five points behind ipswich, with leeds a further two points ahead, and both newcastle and leeds ahead of them. In 02-03 they edged liverpool out of the top four on the last day, but still finished a couple of points behind newcastle.

so if you were to choose the top 4 sides between 95 and 03 (pre abrambovic), you would probable include both leeds and newcastle ahead of chelsea in the 'big 4'.
22/05/2007, 9:39 PM
fergalr

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinR

so if you were to choose the top 4 sides between 95 and 03 (pre abrambovic), you would probable include both leeds and newcastle ahead of chelsea in the 'big 4'.

In the last 10 years Chelsea have won 2 premierships, 3 fa cups, 3 league cups, once european cup winner cups, one european super cup, and one charity shield. 5 of those trophies were pre-Abramovich.

Leeds and Newcastle won what exactly in those years?
22/05/2007, 9:53 PM
ColinR

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergalr

In the last 10 years Chelsea have won 2 premierships, 3 fa cups, 3 league cups, once european cup winner cups, one european super cup, and one charity shield. 5 of those trophies were pre-Abramovich.

Leeds and Newcastle won what exactly in those years?

i thought only liverpool fans counted the charity shield and euro super cup as trophies :eek:

the three trophies chelsea won made them a very good cup team - but around 2000-2003 the 'big 4' in england would have been united, arsenal, newcastle and liverpool - a couple of cup wins doesn't make you into one of the top clubs - see how longford were considered in ireland around their cup wins. chelsea may have won the CWC, but that has never been considered a major european trophy either.

there is no doubting that chelsea are a massive club now, however it has taken abramovich's money to consolidate their position in the top 4
23/05/2007, 11:48 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinR

around 2000-2003 the 'big 4' in england would have been united, arsenal, newcastle and liverpool

Even Newcastle fans didn't consider themselves to be a Top 4 club 2000-2003 !! :eek:
23/05/2007, 12:37 PM
fergalr

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinR

but around 2000-2003 the 'big 4' in england would have been united, arsenal, newcastle and liverpool

Nice try but the facts don't support you.

If you really don't think that winning trophies matters, lets look at league placings.

In the 7 seasons pre-Abramovich (96/97-02/03) the only teams to have finished in the top 6 on all 7 occasions are, surprise, surprise, ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea.

The next best by the way were Liverpool (6), Leeds (5), Villa (3), Newcastle (3), Blackburn (2), WHU (1), Ipswich (1).
23/05/2007, 2:21 PM
ColinR

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergalr

In the 7 seasons pre-Abramovich (96/97-02/03) the only teams to have finished in the top 6 on all 7 occasions are, surprise, surprise, ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea..

i am not arguing that chelsea were not a 'top 6' side pre-abromovich - they were quite consistent about reaching the number 5/6 mark though (they did have one 3rd and two 4th place finishes over the seven seasons that you included) - still doesn't mean they were considered top 4, and certainly not a 'top 4' which was so far ahead of rest as the current top 4 are.

Also the period since the last time someone outside the current top 4 won it was 94-95 with everton, why did you start at 96-97? surely chelsea's 11th place finish in the 95/96 season wasn't the reason ;)
23/05/2007, 3:54 PM
Steve Bruce

The thing is there hasn't really been a top 4 teams through out history in the premiership.

93 season -

1) Man Utd
2) Villa
3) Norwich
4) Blackburn

94 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Blackburn
3) Newcastle
4) Arsenal

95 Season -

1) Blackburn
2) Man Utd
3) Forest
4) Liverpool

96 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Newcastle
3) Liverpool
4) Villa

97 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Newcastle
3) Arsenal
4) Liverpool

98 Season -

1) Arsenal
2) Man Utd
3) Liverpool
4) Chelsea

99 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Arsenal
3) Chelsea
4) Leeds

00 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Arsenal
3) Leeds
4) Liverpool

01 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Arsenal
3) Liverpool
4) Leeds

02 Season -

1) Arsenal
2) Liverpool
3) Man Utd
4) Newcastle

03 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Arsenal
3) Newcastle
4) Chelsea

04 Season -

1) Arsenal
2) Chelsea
3) Man Utd
4) Liverpool

05 Season -

1) Chelsea
2) Arsenal
3) Man Utd
4) Everton

06 Season -

1) Chelsea
2) Man Utd
3) Liverpool
4) Arsenal

07 Season -

1) Man Utd
2) Chelsea
3) Liverpool
4) Arsenal

Man Utd - Top 4 - 15 Times
Arsenal - Top 4 - 12 Times
Liverpool - Top 4 - 10 times
Chelsea - Top 4 - 7 times
Newcastle top 4 - 5 times
Leeds/Blackburn - 3 times each.

But if you go through the top 4 it changes every 3 or 4 seasons.

In 10 years time there will be a different combination alltogether. Its just an era, but with all eras, they end.
23/05/2007, 5:07 PM
hoops1

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergalr

The real dullness on Saturday was in the first half. Mourinho calculated correctly that Manu are not an attacking team - they are only effective as a counter-attacking team. So the Chelsea tactics were to not to lose the ball in dangerous areas and always to have 6 ready to defend (doubling up out wide). Ferguson's mistake was that he hasn't studied Benitez.

More bull from Mourinho, United spend half the season taking the initative in games trying to break teams down with 11 players behind the ball never mind 6. Its always about Jose, Mourinho always tries to make himself out to be the reason Chelsea win games. Abramovich is no fool and he can see after all his millions spent Chelsea are now playing like Arsenal under George Graham. Ferguson would never resort to hoofing balls up to a big man like Benitez has Liverpool doing.
As Bill Shankly himself said any team can win a cup but the best teams win the league.
24/05/2007, 9:57 AM
Raheny Red

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Its just an era, but with all eras, they end.

Paul Osam :confused:

:D
25/05/2007, 9:50 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raheny Red

Paul Osam :confused:

:D

You've lost me?

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