Ahern's Historic Speech to the House of Commons

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

If he was writing d or t where there should be a th then you might have a point. The page needs universal rules much more than the mouth, face, and eyes do.

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spot on

generally we (irish people) say our 'th' as a 'd'
cockneys say 'th' as a 'f'
local accents and pronunciation differ - get over it lads

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

spot on

generally we (irish people) say our 'th' as a 'd'
cockneys say 'th' as a 'f'
local accents and pronunciation differ - get over it lads

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Just because something is done generally doesn't make it correct

As for the comment from E/Boz asking whether by correctly do I mean "Standard British English" the answer is no. I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way. The fact that you are trying to argue that Bertie was correct in accordance with the 'rules' of the type of English he speaks...well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.

So if you like the way he speaks using his 'rules' etc , so be it but if like me you prefer to hear language spoken correctly then he won't do much for you, except IMO make you chuckle now and again at the man's lack of style.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way.

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There are no guidelines as to how to pronounce words correctly which are universal, as regional dialects make it impossible. Obviously, that doesnt mean that anybody's pronunciation must be considered correct, but unless somebody pronounces words differently from the majority of his local / regional peers, then you cannot say his pronunciation is flawed. I dont this this case applies to Bertie.

Check out "ebonics" for a slightly different slant on the same issues.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.

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And how he pronounces the speech will not affect the grammar, nor will the grammar afect how he pronounces the words.

(Mods - feel free to merge with my earlier post)

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

Just because something is done generally doesn't make it correct

As for the comment from E/Boz asking whether by correctly do I mean "Standard British English" the answer is no. I simply mean that there is a correct way to pronounce words and an incorrect way. The fact that you are trying to argue that Bertie was correct in accordance with the 'rules' of the type of English he speaks...well big problem there is that he had his press secretary release the text of the speech which was written using the correct rules ie spelling and grammar which once Bertie opened his mouth came out in his usual mangled badly pronounced delivery.

So if you like the way he speaks using his 'rules' etc , so be it but if like me you prefer to hear language spoken correctly then he won't do much for you, except IMO make you chuckle now and again at the man's lack of style.

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especially as our PM :rolleyes:
unfortunately we can't hear you speaking the queens english on this forum calico. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

especially as our PM :rolleyes:
unfortunately we can't hear you speaking the queens english on this forum calico. :rolleyes:

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Get over the PM reference.... I used it purely on the basisof a quick abbreviation.... but if it causes anyone problems I'll not use it in future

What does it matter as to how I sound, I'm not the one who was representing us, Bertie was... however for what it's worth IMO both my accent and use of the english language are much better that Bertie's... then again I was raised a five minute walk from Milltown so guess some of us are luckier than others by birth....

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Originally Posted by osarusan

There are no guidelines as to how to pronounce words correctly which are universal, as regional dialects make it impossible. Obviously, that doesnt mean that anybody's pronunciation must be considered correct, but unless somebody pronounces words differently from the majority of his local / regional peers, then you cannot say his pronunciation is flawed. I dont this this case applies to Bertie.

Check out "ebonics" for a slightly different slant on the same issues.

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IMO there are 'guidelines' aka known as elocution lessons... maybe Bertie should invest in some... he or should I say the taxpayer foots a large bill every year to pay for his make up , so he is interested in his image.... or maybe he likes to put out that he is an ordinary guy with an ordinary accent.... pity he doesn't also operate his finances in the manner of an ordinary guy

CJ, i specifically mentioned you in the thread as i thought you might have something interesting to say with regard to the speech. Please, drop the subject of his elocution as it just looks like you've a grudge against him.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

CJ, i specifically mentioned you in the thread as i thought you might have something interesting to say with regard to the speech. Please, drop the subject of his elocution as it just looks like you've a grudge against him.

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As I originally said I thought the speach was very good... and only had two issues with it the famine ref (lack of) and the delivery style.

Re the general content of the speech I thought it was an excellent whistlestop tour of the history of the relationship between the two islands and was very well crafted.

I think it is great that we have moved to a position where we have an excellent relationship with our nearest neigbours and as the son of a man who was involved in the fight with the 'tans... I think it is great that in one generation we have moved to that position.

As for Bertie I don't have a grudge against him but I do hold the view that he is not suitable for the role of PM oops I mean Taoisceach... but that's a debate that will be resolved next week

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

.... pity he doesn't also operate his finances in the manner of an ordinary guy

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i think you'll find that most TD's, who have been brought in front of tribunals, operate their finances in a similar way to the ordinary guy. ;)

do you really think that any person who can get to the top political post in the country and stay their for a decade will not have needed to call in or give out a few favours at some stage or another. as a comparison look at the directors of any major company within the state and ask yourself if these guys have never given or received a favour. look at your neighbour or friend and wonder if he has ever earned a few quid and not declared it to the tax man. especially in the 70's and 80's when the country was on it's knees. without the so-called 'brown envelopes' people with money would not have kept it in this country and instead invested it overseas.

i am most certainly not saying it was right but it was an entirely different culture in those days. most people had to move overseas to earn a living, myself included, and the outlook here was very bleak indeed. things are relatively good now and there is no need for under the counter activities but it was not like that 20 years ago. a bit like the speech by bertie about the changing relationship between ireland and britain, we are more mature now and there is room for negotiation on both sides. well think of our economy in the 70's and 80's when the country didn't have a pot to p1ss in and some developers looked to grease a few hands to 'get things done' well had they not then the money, like the people, would have had to leave the country. it is easy to look back post-celtic tiger at these goings on with scorn but to people who lived through those times i can understand how and why it was done. again i am not making these people out to be knights in shining armour - we all know that there was massive gain in it for all of them - but had this culture not existed then i doube the celtic tiger would have come to life either.

Have to say I didnt like the speech at all. One of things I hate about Irish people abroad is they think the world cares about what happens on our little island or that our history is somehow more complex than any other countries.
And it is that kinda vibe I get when reading the speech. I know their is a bit of context to it but still....didnt like it. For a true reflection of where we stand in world thinking see Eurovision :) .

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Have to say I didnt like the speech at all. One of things I hate about Irish people abroad is they think the world cares about what happens on our little island or that our history is somehow more complex than any other countries.
And it is that kinda vibe I get when reading the speech. I know their is a bit of context to it but still....didnt like it. For a true reflection of where we stand in world thinking see Eurovision :) .

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In fairness he was invited to address the British parliament as leader of some of the Irish nation specifically to discuss how they wrecked our country and how we're now apparently over it. He wasn't hijacking a UN Conference on Darfur.

:D Agree with you on the Eurovision.

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Originally Posted by Erstwhile Bóz

In fairness he was invited to address the British parliament as leader of some of the Irish nation specifically to discuss how they wrecked our country and how we're now apparently over it. He wasn't hijacking a UN Conference on Darfur.

:D Agree with you on the Eurovision.

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Like I said I know there was a bit of context to it but I still think its a bit cringe inducing. thats just my opinion; others thought it was a good speech tho.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

i think you'll find that most TD's, who have been brought in front of tribunals, operate their finances in a similar way to the ordinary guy. ;)

do you really think that any person who can get to the top political post in the country and stay their for a decade will not have needed to call in or give out a few favours at some stage or another. as a comparison look at the directors of any major company within the state and ask yourself if these guys have never given or received a favour. look at your neighbour or friend and wonder if he has ever earned a few quid and not declared it to the tax man. especially in the 70's and 80's when the country was on it's knees. without the so-called 'brown envelopes' people with money would not have kept it in this country and instead invested it overseas.

i am most certainly not saying it was right but it was an entirely different culture in those days. most people had to move overseas to earn a living, myself included, and the outlook here was very bleak indeed. things are relatively good now and there is no need for under the counter activities but it was not like that 20 years ago. a bit like the speech by bertie about the changing relationship between ireland and britain, we are more mature now and there is room for negotiation on both sides. well think of our economy in the 70's and 80's when the country didn't have a pot to p1ss in and some developers looked to grease a few hands to 'get things done' well had they not then the money, like the people, would have had to leave the country. it is easy to look back post-celtic tiger at these goings on with scorn but to people who lived through those times i can understand how and why it was done. again i am not making these people out to be knights in shining armour - we all know that there was massive gain in it for all of them - but had this culture not existed then i doube the celtic tiger would have come to life either.

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Bertie was taking dig outs during the mid 90's not the late 70's/80's.... and if you think that "under the counter activities" have ceased, well maybe you should ask yourself what are the builders etc doing in the FF tent in Galway during race week.... Kenny report not implemented I wonder why ????

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

.... and if you think that "under the counter activities" have ceased, well maybe you should ask yourself what are the builders etc doing in the FF tent in Galway during race week....

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i doubt very much that the under the counter activities you talk of happen in the current climate. i know for a fact that there have been payments in the past but politicians will not risk taking them nowadays - not for the want of trying from people offening them either by all accounts.

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....

as regards the FF tent last year - it was hardly a bunch of builders handing over bags of money to FF TD's ffs. many businessmen & women from Galway and beyond were there along with FF party members. many builders are invited to these shin-digs as they are involved in business but among others present there were solicitors, accountants, publicans, auctioneers, business consultants, hoteliers.... i could go on. are all of these people lining the pockets of FF?

also the building trade's annual holidays are during Galway Race Week and half the people in Ballybrit are builders - are they all their offering payments by your logic? people involved in the construction industry are amongst the biggest benefactors of the Celtic Tiger and much more likely to throw their money around* than accountants or the like.

*when i say throw around i'm talking about booze, gambling, birds ...etc

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....

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What a sickening attitude, the emboldened bit especially. You're seriously trying to justify public service corruption? The moral turpitude of public servants is one of the world's grand problems, but shur wouldn't we all do it:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

What a sickening attitude, the emboldened bit especially. You're seriously trying to justify public service corruption? The moral turpitude of public servants is one of the world's grand problems, but shur wouldn't we all do it:rolleyes:

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while large scale corruption is one thing, but attempting to unseat a government because a lad bought expensive wallpaper for a place he was renting 15 years ago smacks of desperation and inability to stand up in the face of examination of ones real policies - see the debate.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

while large scale corruption is one thing, but attempting to unseat a government because a lad bought expensive wallpaper for a place he was renting 15 years ago smacks of desperation and inability to stand up in the face of examination of ones real policies - see the debate.

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The scale is irrelevant. Why should a politician ever be allowed to live outside his means? You and me must budget, doesn't he?

I am disgusted once there is a groundswell of opinion belittling any form of dishonesty, the flippant tone you adopt is further exasperation. You can't differentiate on grounds of amount, purpose or source as to do so surely breeds an entirely unsatisfactory disreputable culture. Similarly, eminent statesmen cannot be adjudged as 'lads', 'company directors' or 'neighbours'.

Politics should be a vocation, BohsPartisan would seem to have the right type of attitude - he'd be high up in my meritocracy - while GalwayHoop (used as demonstration, nothing personal) and his ilk are the type of miscreant scoundrel-apologists I'd rather see cleaning the streets Doing the opposite of tainting countries.

As for our election, Kenny hasn't focued on the issue as much as he justifiably could have. Whether or not he has decent policies is not important in this area. For me, he is more deserving of the position, or at least less undeserving, and that has nothing to do with his lovely Irish.:) If a signal of nice guys finish last is transmitted from the top what chance has a society?

so what - people gave a back-hander here and there - people took it - jobs were created and the country has prospered. there is a reason why those with impecable moral values achieve fcuk all you know, nice guys finish last! the culture in this country has always been of avoiding tax and the odd bit of schemeing. this is at all level of society. look at the amount of investment in tax designated property projects, nowhere else in the world has there been such an uptake in legalised tax avoidance.

we live in a country which has traditionally always had a rebellious nature, why on earth do people expect our politicians to be whiter than white when very few of us wouldn't have at least one skeleton in our closet. have you ever got a few quid yourself without telling the revenue about it? let he without sin cast the first stone and all that....

as regards the FF tent last year - it was hardly a bunch of builders handing over bags of money to FF TD's ffs. many businessmen & women from Galway and beyond were there along with FF party members. many builders are invited to these shin-digs as they are involved in business but among others present there were solicitors, accountants, publicans, auctioneers, business consultants, hoteliers.... i could go on. are all of these people lining the pockets of FF?

(1) Haughey took approx that is known £8million, during the 70's and 80's not exactly a ' a back hander here and there', while the rest of us were paying 58p tax on average industrial wage.The fact that politicians were taking back handers didn't in any way lead to jobs been created and to link to too together to try and justify corruption on the basis of job creation is both wrong and innaccuarte.... during that period approx 50% school leavers and graduates had to emigrate...

(2) Re the link between FF and builders well the fact that the Brennan brothers (I think that their name) of planning tribunal fame recently made a tax setlement of €25m with the Revenue and are known majo financial supoporters of FF says it all about the type of "friends" that FF have.

(3) As for your comment "let he without sin cast the first stone", what are you saying ? is it everone is corrupt therefore it's ok for politicians to act in a corrupt manner..... problem with that attitude is that it leads to more and mre corruption and a free for all .

(4) Since you appear to believe that an amount of corruption is ok do you also agree with the PD/McDowell view "that a certain amount of inequality is justified" ?

CJ, in these times of heightened sensitivity, media awareness, and electronic banking, do you seriously think builders are walking up to TDs at race events and dumping wads of cash on the table? i tell you what, if you've seen that, tell the sun, or the mirror, or the mail, and next time whip out the ould camera phone as that money on the table or in the envelope will end up in your pocket!

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Originally Posted by Kingdom Hoop

The scale is irrelevant. Why should a politician ever be allowed to live outside his means? You and me must budget, doesn't he?

I am disgusted once there is a groundswell of opinion belittling any form of dishonesty, the flippant tone you adopt is further exasperation. You can't differentiate on grounds of amount, purpose or source as to do so surely breeds an entirely unsatisfactory disreputable culture. Similarly, eminent statesmen cannot be adjudged as 'lads', 'company directors' or 'neighbours'.

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I'm not belittling anything, but a bit of perspective would go a long way. For starters, its not been proved he's done anything wrong, and the smear campaign, no matter how enda kenny attempts to distance himself from it, is being driven by opponents of the government, not just anyone seeking justice.