Has Robbie Keane ever missed a penalty in a competitive match

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You might well be right, but what the bloody hell do they spend their time on? Jonny Wilkinson or Ronan O'Gara........ Tiger Woods will still practice a hundred or more four feet puts just about every day of his life.

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while goalkeeper is specialised to a point in a football context the position of out half and moreover a golfer are totally specialised.. tiger has to make at least 72 putts every weekend and an out-half would have somewhere between 8 and 10 kicks at goal (drop goals, pens. and conversions) in most games if not more. how many Pk's does a keeper face in an average game? or even in a season maybe 5 or so.

goalkeepers however would face maybe 8 - 10 shots and possibly 20 crosses in any one game. they would have to kick the ball loads of time too.

therefore they work on shot stopping from various angles, recovery for 2nd shot, gathering crosses, collecting high balls into the box and their footwork.

point is i don't reckon that too much time is designated to PK's for goalkeepers in training unless as i said above a cup game is coming up. however i reckon they may watch a video of certain players to guess more accurately where they are going to put their penalty

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Much higher risk though, surely? If you're aiming high there's probably only one area of the ball you need to hit to get it into the postage stamp. Maybe one inch below this impact spot and it's over the bar, one inch above and it's waist high, the easiest place for a keeper to save it. Hitting the ball low is easier and in moments of pressure it's probably more reliable.

I'd guess it's relatively rare even for the best takers to go high.

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At the risk of stating the obvious, there are two elements which determine whether a penalty is converted or not: The taker's accuracy and the keeper's attempt to save. My point is that by aiming for that part of the goal which the keeper physically cannot reach (for a well-struck shot), the taker may completely eliminate the latter.

As for the "unsaveable" section of the goal, I'm not talking about an inch or two inside the upright and bar. The goal area is 8 foot by eight yards i.e. 192 square feet. At a very rough guess, I'd say 15% of the goal qualifies i.e. almost 30 square feet. Considering that this is equally divided between the two top corners, that should be enough for a professional to hit more regularly than the present conversion rate, which I believe to be less than 80%*.

Consider David Beckham, for example. He must practice those curling, long-range free kicks for hours on end. Yet how many does he actually score each season? Three or four max (?), from a number of attempts in double figures. Whereas, most teams will get at least three or four penalties a season, the top teams considerably more (spend more time in opposition's area). By missing one in four penalties, they're squandering what must be an easier chance (statistically) than free-kicks at goal from outside the area. How many penalties had Beckham missed? It's at least two for England alone.

And if the taker is aiming for a spot that he knows the keeper can't reach, that should help to remove some of the mental pressure on him. Add to this the fact that the taker still has a choice of which top corner he opts for, then even if the keeper is somehow superhuman with his leap (or more likely, the kick is not struck hard enough), he (the keeper) still has a 50-50 chance of going the right way.


* - Remember that of the 80%-odd of penalties which do go in, at least some of these will have been top corner i.e. the percentage of missed penalties which are not top-corner must actually be higher than 20% of the overall total.

Le Tiss had amazing success but Shearer was the best I ever saw. That Germna guy who has analyzed all professional penalites had a theory on this.

He reckons that strikers are always more succesful on one side than the other. As a Goalie it makes sense to favour the side the striker is best at (as the striker is likely to knowhis strengths and aim there). You get into a real prisoner's dilemna type situation where the striker knows that and so aims at his weak side etc etc.

However with Shearer his ability on his strong side was so good that it was pointless the goalie going that way as he wouldnt save it anyway. So for players like that the striker always goes to his strong side and the goalie always goes to the weak side.

in fairness Ealing it is more pressure and not technique that lets the strikers down! same for frees and penalties. i'm sure in training the strike rate is infinately higher than the 80% fact** you have given us for competitive games.

it is just like free kick as you say. how can a person who trains all day at something not stitch them every time... well game situations are different just like a player skews a 10 yard pass or mistimes a tackle or has a bad touch. or when Tiger misses a putt from 4 foot or O'Gara misses a seemingly easy conversion.

BTW the more figures you introduce into an arguement does not make it a better arguement ;) 15% of the goal, 80% of the time, 192 sq ft ....... etc, etc football is a sport and not a science. science is used more and more to increase performance and endurance but it will never replace skill and individual mental strength (or lack of it)!



** the 80% has now become fact by you wikifing it!!!

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Originally Posted by osarusan

To be fair, Wilkinson or O'Gara can expect to kick at least 3 or 4 penalties every game, so they are talking about 9-12 points every game, at least. How many penalties does the average keeper face in a season?

Of course time should be spent on it, although I'd say video analysis of the run-up and direction of penalties (and any correlation) by the penalty taker would be more useful than facing penalties from random players.

But, when you consider time spent preparing for free kicks, corners, etc, situations which occur multiple times each game, I'm not sure how much time should be devoted to something that you believe a striker should never miss if he takes correctly.

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Actually, I don't think keepers need spend an excessive amount of time practising penalty-saves unless, perhaps, it's a before Cup match/Tournament Finals, where Penalty-Shoot Out apply.
It's actually penalty takers who should practice more (imo).

As for O'Gara/Wilkinson etc; of course they have to take several penalties per match. That said, it is unusual for an individual kick to determine a rugby match, whereas penalties are much more crucial in football, it being so much lower scoring.

In any case, the very top penalty takers in rugby have a percentage conversion rate in the high 80's. This reflects the conditions, distances, angles etc In fact, I think they are phenomenal.

Whereas, football penalties are so much more straightforward, which is why the top players (Noble, Le Tissier, Francis Lee etc) achieve a 90%+ success rate. Of course, rugby players don't have to beat a keeper; however, my whole point is that if takers only aim for the area which a keeper can't reach, then that removes that particular difficulty, leaving him to worry about hitting it cleanly (and conquering his nerves).

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

while goalkeeper is specialised to a point in a football context the position of out half and moreover a golfer are totally specialised.. tiger has to make at least 72 putts every weekend and an out-half would have somewhere between 8 and 10 kicks at goal (drop goals, pens. and conversions) in most games if not more. how many Pk's does a keeper face in an average game? or even in a season maybe 5 or so.

goalkeepers however would face maybe 8 - 10 shots and possibly 20 crosses in any one game. they would have to kick the ball loads of time too.

therefore they work on shot stopping from various angles, recovery for 2nd shot, gathering crosses, collecting high balls into the box and their footwork.

point is i don't reckon that too much time is designated to PK's for goalkeepers in training unless as i said above a cup game is coming up. however i reckon they may watch a video of certain players to guess more accurately where they are going to put their penalty

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As I posted in reply to Osarusan, I don't think penalty practice quite so critical to keepers as to takers. However, it cannot be coincidence that some keepers have an above-average save rate and some takers have an above-average conversion rate. And whether the high performers do it naturally, or as a result of practice, the low performers ought to study them and practice emulating them.

As for my Tiger Woods analogy re. putting practice, I actually think this proves, rather than disproves, my point. Of course he takes 20-odd putts per round. But what sets him aside is not his putting on the tied holes, in the bog-standard tournaments, it's his killer ability on the five foot putt at the 17th hole of a Major, when his only opponent is sh1tting himself! And practice is one of the areas where Tiger has raised the bar beyond everyone else's reach.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

However, it cannot be coincidence that some keepers have an above-average save rate and some takers have an above-average conversion rate.

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it couldn't be anything to do with some keepers being better than others and some penalty takers being better than others. both in terms of technique and nerve!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for my Tiger Woods analogy re. putting practice, I actually think this proves, rather than disproves, my point. Of course he takes 20-odd putts per round. But what sets him aside is not his putting on the tied holes, in the bog-standard tournaments, it's his killer ability on the five foot putt at the 17th hole of a Major, when his only opponent is sh1tting himself! And practice is one of the areas where Tiger has raised the bar beyond everyone else's reach.

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yes it is to do with his training but in all fairness is there any other sports man in any sport who seems so in control or his nerves and emotion than Woods. he is a machine in the mould of a young steve davis or any german international side taking penalties. :D actually there you have it - the difference between england and germany players is mental strength when it comes to penalties. one crowd think they may score and the others KNOW that they will. guess who is who??????

you see it often - a player playing poorly or below par is much more likely to miss a penalty than someone who is flying. again as i have said many times i think so much of it is down to nerve or bottle or what ever you want to call it.

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

in fairness Ealing it is more pressure and not technique that lets the strikers down! same for frees and penalties. i'm sure in training the strike rate is infinately higher than the 80% fact** you have given us for competitive games.

it is just like free kick as you say. how can a person who trains all day at something not stitch them every time... well game situations are different just like a player skews a 10 yard pass or mistimes a tackle or has a bad touch. or when Tiger misses a putt from 4 foot or O'Gara misses a seemingly easy conversion.

BTW the more figures you introduce into an arguement does not make it a better arguement ;) 15% of the goal, 80% of the time, 192 sq ft ....... etc, etc football is a sport and not a science. science is used more and more to increase performance and endurance but it will never replace skill and individual mental strength (or lack of it)!



** the 80% has now become fact by you wikifing it!!!

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I don't deny that technique and mental strength are the key components for the penalty taker. But the technique isn't that difficult, when you consider that it's not just skillful players like Le Tissier are successful 95% of the time, but other less gifted players like Noble and Lee.
David Beckham has missed his share of penalties, but his technique in crossing, free-kicks, trapping the ball etc is immaculate.

As for mental strength, I don't know how you improve that, though I'm sure knowing you've practiced thoroughly must be a help. But even where the taker is supremely confident, and he strikes it beautifully, there still remains the possibility of the keeper saving it, if he guesses the right way and it's placed in that portion of the goal area which he can reach.

Which is why I don't understand why takers don't limit their efforts towards hitting the area of the goal which the keeper can't reach, that area being quite big enough, imo, for a professional footballer to hit from 12 yards from a dead ball in the centre of the goal.

That's all.

I know a guy who is a huge Robbie Keane fan, he said the only one he's missed is the one against Sunderland, and "it was a damn fine save"

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

it couldn't be anything to do with some keepers being better than others and some penalty takers being better than others. both in terms of technique and nerve!

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Fine, so what happens when a top penalty taker faces a top penalty saver? Le Tissier must have faced his share of such keepers, yet his success rate was 98%! Granted it was a top saver (Mark Crossley) who denied him a 100% record, but he simply can't have sent the keeper the wrong way in all of the other 48 penalties which he did convert. Assuming the opposing keeper guessed the right way at least some of the time, then Le Tissier must either have been phenomenally accurate at hitting them hard just inside the post at low level; or, he was hitting some of them wide and high, to a position where the keeper simply cannot reach.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Which is why I don't understand why takers don't limit their efforts towards hitting the area of the goal which the keeper can't reach, that area being quite big enough, imo, for a professional footballer to hit from 12 yards from a dead ball in the centre of the goal.

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not being arguementative here but then why don't beckham or the likes score every free kick or at least hit the target every time? why do top pro's misplace passes and how do top keepers fumble the ball into their net on occasion?

it is only when the robots come onto the pitch that these anomolies will be corrected once and for all!!!

yes maybe they should go high and in the corner but then they may risk hitting the post, crossbar or putting it over! and i think the really good PK takes do seem to score much more than 80% of the time. shearer, le tiss and by the looks of this thread our own robbie! if you can manage to get the keeper to commit before you strike it then well and good but if not try and find the corner and you should be ok!

anyway this tangent has run it's course. i think we have answered the original question: yes, he has missed at least one penalty and it was against sunderland and, by one account of a friend of a poster who is a fan, it was a damn fine save!

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Originally Posted by galwayhoop

not being arguementative here but then why don't beckham or the likes score every free kick or at least hit the target every time? why do top pro's misplace passes and how do top keepers fumble the ball into their net on occasion?
it is only when the robots come onto the pitch that these anomolies will be corrected once and for all!!!

yes maybe they should go high and in the corner but then they may risk hitting the post, crossbar or putting it over! and i think the really good PK takes do seem to score much more than 80% of the time. shearer, le tiss and by the looks of this thread our own robbie! if you can manage to get the keeper to commit before you strike it then well and good but if not try and find the corner and you should be ok!

anyway this tangent has run it's course. i think we have answered the original question: yes, he has missed at least one penalty and it was against sunderland and, by one account of a friend of a poster who is a fan, it was a damn fine save!

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No offence, but free kicks are entirely different from penalties since:
1. (Direct) Free kicks must by definition be at least 18 yards out (not 12);
2. They are frequently at an angle (whereas penalties are dead centre to the goal);
3. The keeper may set a wall to guard half the goal and he may set a player on either (both?) post(s), thereby leaving the area he has to cover considerably reduced.

As for misplaced passes - different again - and with a moving ball!

And keepers sometimes fumble penalties, as well.

But I'll agree - Keane is an ace penalty-taker, and as a Spurs fan, I can't remember him missing any other than v Sunderland, either!

Im not 100% sure but i think that robbie keane missed in the penalty shoot out when ireland won the u18 european championship in 1998.

Aiyegbeni Yakubu for Middlesbrough is a great penalty taker and he doesn't even hit the ball that hard, he's just great at reading the keeper

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

Im not 100% sure but i think that robbie keane missed in the penalty shoot out when ireland won the u18 european championship in 1998.

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That's right, he missed his then and didn't get to take his turn in Nigeria.

Robbie gets totally focussed in the penalty build up, plus he has a repetoire of run-ups and shots.
It's the penalties which may be awarded against us that I'd be worried about, has Shay has used up his quota of penalty saves for the next 5 years after the Cyprus one?

Don't mention Shay and penalty saves: he went the wrong way for all 5 penos against Spain :eek:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

No offence, but free kicks are entirely different from penalties since:
1. (Direct) Free kicks must by definition be at least 18 yards out (not 12);
2. They are frequently at an angle (whereas penalties are dead centre to the goal);
3. The keeper may set a wall to guard half the goal and he may set a player on either (both?) post(s), thereby leaving the area he has to cover considerably reduced.

As for misplaced passes - different again - and with a moving ball!

And keepers sometimes fumble penalties, as well.

But I'll agree - Keane is an ace penalty-taker, and as a Spurs fan, I can't remember him missing any other than v Sunderland, either!

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your missing my point. what i'm saying is that from an outsiders perspective yes, it would appear that all penalties should be scored by top class full time professionals. but by the same token then all direct frees should clear the wall and at least be on target, if taken by top class full time professionals. and again you would think that their ten yard passing should be accurate all of the time too. the fact that they don't score all of their penalties and hit all free's on target and complete all of their passes is more down to human error than lack of practice and technique.

also football requires so much more than actual dead ball kicking technique that it would be foolhardy to donate too much time on one specific area of your game when you have an average success rate (accross the board) of over 80% anyway (and top penalty takers much in excess of this). with total devotiation you may get it up 10-15% or so but i would reckon you still would never get it up to 100%. if football had dedicated place kickers like american football then maybe the percentages would be higher but as it stands penalty kicks while being an important part of a players arsenal are not the one and only part and are not worth devoting countless hours trying to hit the 'g' spot!!

What I've always wondered is if players really do send the keeper the wrong way, or is it just luck............I've seen many penalties placed midway between the centre of the goals and the post, at a nice saveable height, but when the keeper dives the other way, it looks like the perfect penalty. I've alwys thought that if the keeper had dived the other way, it would have been an easy save.

Do they send keepers the wrong way, and how do they do it?

A friend of mine who is a keeper said he always used to watch the non-kicking leg of the penalty taker. He said if the distance between boot and ball was very close, that indicated the penalty taker (if right-footed) would aim to his right side (the keeper's left), whereas if the distance was wider, the taker would aim to his left, and the keeper's right. Anybody else heard this?

This is what you call a set of penalties:


And this one won me a lot of money:


I don't know how Totti can miss a peno after scoring such an excellent one under that much pressure.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

What I've always wondered is if players really do send the keeper the wrong way, or is it just luck............I've seen many penalties placed midway between the centre of the goals and the post, at a nice saveable height, but when the keeper dives the other way, it looks like the perfect penalty. I've alwys thought that if the keeper had dived the other way, it would have been an easy save.

Do they send keepers the wrong way, and how do they do it?

A friend of mine who is a keeper said he always used to watch the non-kicking leg of the penalty taker. He said if the distance between boot and ball was very close, that indicated the penalty taker (if right-footed) would aim to his right side (the keeper's left), whereas if the distance was wider, the taker would aim to his left, and the keeper's right. Anybody else heard this?

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I would not think it is so much of sending the keeper the wrong way but waiting untill he has started to dive one way or the other before you strike the ball. Most keeper begin diving before the ball is struck and it isvirtually impossible for them to the otherway if the ball is put the other side.
So ideally the striker should be able to delay his decision as long as possible before striking the ball, however the longer he waits the less power he will be able to get into his shot. If the keeper goes early you can just chip it down the middle. In that situation it is more of a mind game, a bit like rock, paper, scissors there is a solution to every choice if you know what they are goinig to choose.