Nurses Strike

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Originally Posted by Clifford

The patients are at no risk whatsoever, with the work to rule situation they are receiving better care cos the nurses and midwives aren't wasting their time with the admin crap that they should not have to do in the first place.

Vitruvian Man, spot on. Exceptionally well put and the anecdote at the end is happening in a lot more instance than that one.

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I think patients are at risk, not properly recording information or booking tests, leaving people waiting longer isn't putting people at risk? As for vitruvian's well put anecdote, if this is truely the case why isn't this exposed, surely corrupion at this level should be exposed. But its a story with very few facts, but its a good spin story for the poor nurses. The fact remains they have a good thing going with flexible hours & yes it probably suits both sides, at the moment. The fact remains giving the nurses 10% and a 35 hour wek will mean a knock on effect to all other civil servants & that just can't be allowed to happen.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

I think patients are at risk, not properly recording information or booking tests, leaving people waiting longer isn't putting people at risk? As for vitruvian's well put anecdote, if this is truely the case why isn't this exposed, surely corrupion at this level should be exposed. But its a story with very few facts, but its a good spin story for the poor nurses. The fact remains they have a good thing going with flexible hours & yes it probably suits both sides, at the moment. The fact remains giving the nurses 10% and a 35 hour wek will mean a knock on effect to all other civil servants & that just can't be allowed to happen.

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why not, how much are the guys in the HSE on? or the politicans?

working in a busy hospital in dublin is HARD WORK

wake up, if we cant pay nurses a decent salary then we might as well all give up

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

There is usually good support for Nurses as people know they are hard working. There is a problem that ward assistants, I don't know if that is their correct title who the nurses supervise actually earn more than the nurses. They are fully justified in their actions. The most under paid and over worked proffession in the country.

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care assistants dont get paid more, dunno where you got that from. any how nurses do have a hard job, working in bad conditions, but from my experience the hardest thing about working in any hospital is working in a female dominated environment, i mean your talking serious hissy fits most days and very bad management at all levels, and i'v personaly seen insidents of racism among staff. a reduced working week and more money isnt going to make nurses happier in their job, although some nurses deserve it, others are less deserving, and id go as far as to say a significant number of nurses arent fit to wear the uniform, their reputation is built on the back of others.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

why not, how much are the guys in the HSE on? or the politicans?

working in a busy hospital in dublin is HARD WORK

wake up, if we cant pay nurses a decent salary then we might as well all give up

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nobody(i hope!) would argue that they don't deserve a decent wage. but the government is in a pickle because if it acquiesces to the, perhaps reasonable, demands then it is setting a precedent for other public sector unions to come knocking, ie a spectre of a system bedraggled by conflict and so-called leapfrogging looms on the horizon. thats why its kinda annoying the nurses see themselves as unique and couldnt process their claim in a more appropriate format.

and as for bringing up tales of corruption now to add to their side and try endear the public why couldnt we have heard about such villainy before.

The average wage according to the pappers yesterday is €56,000. which doesn't put them on the breadline:rolleyes: similar to Gardai & prison officers, who also spend all day on their feet, work shift work & one could argue have a worse job.

Very interesting to see the both Fine Gael & Labour are not backing the nurses claims.

Ringo, no patients are going to be put at risk, the nurses are looking for respect/answers not law suits. As for your impression that a person will have to wait a few more days/weeks for something that they have been waiting 2/3 years for I give up.

My wife would have to have stayed in the system for another 20 or so years to go up to about 40,000k a year from the money she was on when she left. That was after 7 years in the system and 5 years degree level educating as well.

Facts are if the situation remains the same as it is there will be no nurses left. The lack of uptake of training positions and the drop out rate after qualification will end up killing off what is left of the already depleted resources, thats whats happening in my front line experience through my wife, who is another one gone from a profession she loved, but couldn't do anymore.

As I stated before most of the nurses couldn't care less about the wages and hours as long as they weren't treated like slaves by the bully's in power. It so happens that this dispute is looking like being the straw that broke the camels back. It's been brewing and ignored for 27 years by people who couldn't give a hoot, assuming the good old nurses would be there to be walked on forever.

I totally agree with Tricks that there are some woeful nurses out there, shocking in the extreme, same as in any walk of life, but until the training regieme (sp?) get's changed that won't change as there are too many easy ways for a Slacker to join in for the ride.

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Originally Posted by Clifford

As I stated before most of the nurses couldn't care less about the wages and hours as long as they weren't treated like slaves by the bully's in power

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strikes often overshadow broader malaise, unfortunately this looks like an acute case.

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Originally Posted by Ringo

Very interesting to see the both Fine Gael & Labour are not backing the nurses claims.

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that says more about how useless the opposition are, as usual

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Originally Posted by Clifford

The patients are at no risk whatsoever, with the work to rule situation they are receiving better care cos the nurses and midwives aren't wasting their time with the admin crap that they should not have to do in the first place.

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Untrue. I have spent many full days in the hospital with a relative this year and nothing has changed with work to rule in regards to extra care for patients.

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Originally Posted by pete

I don't think this is a debate of who has hard or easy job. Lots of people have hard jobs so pointless debate.

I only started this thread as its close to an election & nurses provide vital service where lives can be put at risk if not working. Can we keep the personal comments out of this debate.

If nurses are earning less than care assistants then surely that claim can be handled via Benchmarking? TBH no idea what a care assistant is anyway.

IMO if someone wants a 35 hour working week then should move to France.

10% pay increase is a large amount of money & as I said benchmarking was acceptable when getting large increases in previous years so now its not good enough?

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First off they arent stopping working , no nurses are walking out in the middle of surgery etc like the hospital bosses and goverment are making out all they are doing is just nursing they arent going to be doing the work of other people . So that means no making phone calls that the admin staff are paid to do . No cleaning toilets that the cleaning staff are paid to do etc .

Everyone else in healthcare works a 35 hour week except nurses .

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

I'm up for the nurses big-time but can anybody tell me are they carrying out the plan to answer only the important telephone calls? I heard that at the start of the campaign and it struck me as a bit laughable. Different ringtones, etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Everyone else in healthcare works a 35 hour week except nurses .

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

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Please quote your sources for your remarks otherwise their worthless huff & puff:rolleyes: . if inflation is about 3.5%, how will your employer or any employer keep paying 10% per annum.

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2007/20070403.html

70% of the workforce in the health sector are contracted to work a 39 hour week and that nurses account for only half of that figure. Nursing support staff, such as health care assistants, attendants and porters, as well as NCHDs and ambulance personnel, also work a 39 hour week.

The two nurses organisations are seeking a Dublin weighting allowance. The estimated cost of granting an allowance of €3,800 to Dublin-based nurses would be in excess of €52m per annum. All other public servants in Dublin would seek a similar allowance. If an allowance were granted to all public servants in Dublin the annual cost would be in excess of €252m.


– Sustaining Progress – gave cumulative pay increases to nurses of 13.16%
This was in addition to Benchmarking increases of between 8% (Staff Nurses) and 16 % (Directors of Nursing).
Nurses’ pay has increased by between 75 per cent to 103 per cent across grades since 1997.

The basic pay of a newly-qualified staff nurses, before premium shift pay, is €31,233. This compares with the average industrial wage of €31,360 last September.
The average annual salary in 2005 was €56,000.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

10% isnt a large amount when you start on 27,000 10% is only 2700 you are still earning under 30,000 . I get a 10% rise every year .

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27k is for graduate nurse. Average wage for a staff nurse is 40k which hardly breadline stuff as no doubt the pension is decent enough. A 20% increase (reduction in hours equates to another 10%) is unrealistic & I read somewhere that would cost 1 billion to fund (i am open to correction on this if anyone can find links) which by my calculations is 500 euro from every tax payer (i am assuming 2m tax payers).

Based on 40k salary for 39 hour week thats 19 euro per hour. A 10% rise plus reduction in working hours would lead to 24 euro per hour wage.

For some reason it is unacceptable to criticise the nurses.

Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?

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Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?

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Are they solely to blame for that in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Ringo

Please quote your sources for your remarks otherwise their worthless huff & puff:rolleyes: . if inflation is about 3.5%, how will your employer or any employer keep paying 10% per annum.

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2007/20070403.html

70% of the workforce in the health sector are contracted to work a 39 hour week and that nurses account for only half of that figure. Nursing support staff, such as health care assistants, attendants and porters, as well as NCHDs and ambulance personnel, also work a 39 hour week.

The two nurses organisations are seeking a Dublin weighting allowance. The estimated cost of granting an allowance of €3,800 to Dublin-based nurses would be in excess of €52m per annum. All other public servants in Dublin would seek a similar allowance. If an allowance were granted to all public servants in Dublin the annual cost would be in excess of €252m.


– Sustaining Progress – gave cumulative pay increases to nurses of 13.16%
This was in addition to Benchmarking increases of between 8% (Staff Nurses) and 16 % (Directors of Nursing).
Nurses’ pay has increased by between 75 per cent to 103 per cent across grades since 1997.

The basic pay of a newly-qualified staff nurses, before premium shift pay, is €31,233. This compares with the average industrial wage of €31,360 last September.
The average annual salary in 2005 was €56,000.

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You went to Mary Harney for your facts :rolleyes:

http://www.ino.ie/DesktopModules/art...%2020Jun06.doc


Nurses and Midwives are the only officer grades in the public service who work a 39 hour week. Within the health service Nurses and Midwives constitute the largest single group of officers yet they are alone in the requirement to work a 39 hour week.

The Eastern Regional Health Authority, when it was in existence, publicly advertised their clerical administrative grades as having a requirement to work 33.75 hours per week. Likewise all of their therapeutic grades and laboratory grades are recorded as having a 33.75 hours requirement. This would be typical of the working week for such grades throughout the health service with no examples exceeding a 35 hour week.

Non Consultant Hospital Doctors, according to the Irish Medical Organisation, work a 39 hour week which is officially recorded by the Health Boards as 9am to 5pm (Mon-Thursday) and 9am – 4pm (Friday) inclusive of a paid one hour lunch break. This yields a net working week of 34 hours.

The Gardai also provide a 365 day 24 hour service. They are officially recorded as working a 39 hour week. The 24 hours are covered on the basis of three eight hour shifts and each eight hour shift is inclusive of a 45 minute lunch break. In order to reduce that 40 hour commitment to a 39 hour week the one hour build up per week is accumulated and allowed as time in lieu. The nominal 40 hour week worked by the guard is actually 36.25 hours, which is further reduced by time in lieu to allow for a 39 hour week. Thus the actual working hours per week are 35.25.


pay:

A 10.6% increase on all scale points for all nursing and midwifery grades in order to address the anomaly which sees qualified and unqualified Childcare workers paid more than all Staff Nurses and Midwives.
10.6% is the amount required to restore the relative pay position for the nurse/midwife with the Social Care worker (former Assistant House Parent) prior to the application of increases between 20 and 27% to those grades in the statutory child care and sensory disability services in April 2001 and effective from January 2001. The increases of up to 27% were applied to the renamed child care workers in the context of the introduction of professionalisation. This subsequently following strike action in January 2002 was applied to Assistant House Parents and House Parents in the intellectual disability area with retrospective effect to April 2001. The increases applied to both qualified and unqualified Assistant House Parents and the agreement also provided for a new grade of trainee Social Care worker which currently enjoys a 3 point salary scale ranging from €25,145 to €27,653.


On qualification the Social Care worker will commence on a rate of pay which is almost €3,000 per annum higher than the nurse. That situation continues for 20 years and only on completion of twenty years will the Staff Nurse achieve the Senior Staff Nurse rate of pay (a payment based on long service) and go marginally ahead of the retitled Social Care worker.

No rational or reasonable explanation has ever been offered as to why nurses and midwives are the only officer grade required to work 39 hours. When one considers that they are also the professions who provide 24 hour 365 days a year and are the ones who provide comprehensive care when all others have left the premises at 5pm. The extended working hours is wholly unjustified.




You ll just have to read the rest i have only cut and pasted a tiny bit but its allready getting very long , as you can see they only want to be treated fairly . As ive said the Goverment are releasing stories that make the nurse out to be greedy and uncaring to sway public support against them such as that 70% work 39 hours when they clearly dont .

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Untrue. I have spent many full days in the hospital with a relative this year and nothing has changed with work to rule in regards to extra care for patients.

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Of course individual cases are going to be different, I'm speaking from the experiences of a ward in a Cork hospital that's all I know about, which immediately will be different to a Dublin example if that's where you are or are not. Maybe everything is being done for your relative that is possible.

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Originally Posted by pete

27k is for graduate nurse. Average wage for a staff nurse is 40k which hardly breadline stuff as no doubt the pension is decent enough. A 20% increase (reduction in hours equates to another 10%) is unrealistic & I read somewhere that would cost 1 billion to fund (i am open to correction on this if anyone can find links) which by my calculations is 500 euro from every tax payer (i am assuming 2m tax payers).

Based on 40k salary for 39 hour week thats 19 euro per hour. A 10% rise plus reduction in working hours would lead to 24 euro per hour wage.

For some reason it is unacceptable to criticise the nurses.

Hows about the nurses get a 10% pay increase when they eliminate MRSA?

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27 K more like 22K

The nurse, whether in intellectual disability, general or psychiatric is now required to have an honours degree for registry to their profession. Additionally, the nurse receives no pay for the first three years of training and in their fourth year receives an annual rate of €22,539

average wage pete ??? if you are a builder and you earn 10K and your 2 neighbours also builders earn 1m each then your average wage is 670,000 doesnt do you much good now does it ???


If they managed to eliminate a naturally occuring bacteria found on all humans then yes i suppose they would deserve there money then :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Clifford

Of course individual cases are going to be different, I'm speaking from the experiences of a ward in a Cork hospital that's all I know about, which immediately will be different to a Dublin example if that's where you are or are not. Maybe everything is being done for your relative that is possible.

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I'm not talking about my relative specifically. I spend long enough there to observe what's going on across the ward. Sure I attend to the other patients in the room far more than any of the staff.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

27 K more like 22K

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INO pay rates

22,901 for student nurse in 2006. Staff nurses starts at 27k+

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Originally Posted by anto1208

The nurse, whether in intellectual disability, general or psychiatric is now required to have an honours degree for registry to their profession. Additionally, the nurse receives no pay for the first three years of training and in their fourth year receives an annual rate of €22,539

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Apprentices rarely get paid much in any job.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

average wage pete ??? if you are a builder and you earn 10K and your 2 neighbours also builders earn 1m each then your average wage is 670,000 doesnt do you much good now does it ???

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AFAIK the nurse unions ate looking for 20% pay increase across all grades which is why i use averages. If its just 205 increase for lowest paid then they should state that & I will use the figures for lowest paid then.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

If they managed to eliminate a naturally occuring bacteria found on all humans then yes i suppose they would deserve there money then :rolleyes:

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As hospital employees nurses are surely as responsible as anyone for the high rate of infections? It can't be just the doctors fault can it?