All-Ireland League not practical – Jeffrey

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

56 in Europe and 200 at Harlow throws new light on that travelling support, one would think.

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For a friendly game I would not expect us to travel in big numbers. I personally didn't go, too close to Europe for me and simply could not afford both. Most Bluemen don't view Europe as being that important and don't make an effort with it. Understandable as it can be quite costly. Not sure where you got such a precise number from, I was there and could not give you an exact number but there you go. Glenmen I know have told me that their numbers in Europe are regularlyswelled by those that do not or rarely go to games at home as many simply see it as a trip away. Nothing wrong with that but we do not tend to get too much of that. To get back to the point though, for any competition played on an all Ireland basis Linfield, and indeed Glentoran, will consistently bring a larger travelling support that EL clubs will bring to us.

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Originally Posted by David

Tp get to Institute takes an hour and a half. If, as has been done in the past, we are forced to go via Coleraine it takes two hours plus. Belfast to Dublin could be done in that time.

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You'd do well to get to Dublin in 2 hours nevermind the traffic there.

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Originally Posted by David

Most Bluemen don't view Europe as being that important and don't make an effort with it. Understandable as it can be quite costly.

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To be frank that statement is worrying if true. Europe is hugely important:eek:

KOH

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

To be frank that statement is worrying if true. Europe is hugely important:eek:

KOH

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TBH I would rathe be in the Setanta over Europe but I liked our wee trip in the summer and we'll always have fans to go anywhere but the Setanta is more important for me.

If a new league started with 12 teams in a few years would be only at most maybe 3 IL left in the top division.

Many LOI teams may not be able to afford to be fulltime but many would aspire to do so in the future. I get the impression no club (with possible exception of Linfield) has any fulltime aspirations.

There would be no point to an all island lieague unless was fully professional.

this idea is only given credance by people who live in theoretical bliss
stupid idea in practice with teh Setanta Sports Cup more than catering for the needs of two very different leagues

I'm only guessing here but I'd say Linfield have the biggest home support of any team north or south, so it'd be natural for them to have the biggest away support. David, what's the average home gate at Windsor, leaving out games against Glentoran?

Limiting Linfield to 450 in Drogheda the other night sounds a bit daft. Unless the ground was full anyway (was it?) why leave empty space when there's obviously hundreds an hour away who would've gladly travelled if let? Even taking into account a need for segregation, surely the away terrace in United Park can accomodate more than 450?

I'm equally as surprised as others about the comment regarding Europe not being seen as important by most Linfield fans. It seems to fly in the face of what Jeffrey was saying about a reduction in European places if there was just one League - that he'd view as a negative whereas the fans already see it as irrelevant.

The distance excuse I'd view as a weak argument on both sides. IL fans may be used to travelling relatively short distances but surely that's just a habit of circumstance that could be broken? For LoI fans, the prevalence of Friday night games makes it harder for people who don't want to use up all their time off work taking half days (and I do appreciate the problems faced by Derry and Cork fans who aren't good enough to rob our jobs in Dublin :D ), but Saturday afternoon games would go a long way to solving that. Again, it'd just be a matter of breaking down a less-than-useful element of the football culture here.

For me, the big argument against an AIL is the lack of quality in depth in the IL. OK, so I've only a friendly last summer and the other night to go on, but from what I've seen of Portadown, they're far from being great shakes - even allowing for injuries on Monday, I'd only put them on a par with low Premier / top end First Division LoI teams. If they're fourth in the IL, it doesn't say much for whoever's trailing after them. Linfield have obviously proved themselves over the lifetime of the Setanta, Cliftonville were abominably bad the one time I saw them in the IL so maybe they've come on a bit and Glentoran always seem to be there or there abouts.

So - admittedly from a position of ignorance - it looks like the IL would at best only contribute two decent teams and two weak teams to an AIL. Much the same as Celtic and Rangers joining the English Premiership, they'd be very welcome additions but still essentially bolt-ons to what was already there before.

That doesn't sound to me like the promised land some people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub

I'm only guessing here but I'd say Linfield have the biggest home support of any team north or south, so it'd be natural for them to have the biggest away support. David, what's the average home gate at Windsor, leaving out games against Glentoran?

Limiting Linfield to 450 in Drogheda the other night sounds a bit daft. Unless the ground was full anyway (was it?) why leave empty space when there's obviously hundreds an hour away who would've gladly travelled if let? Even taking into account a need for segregation, surely the away terrace in United Park can accomodate more than 450?

I'm equally as surprised as others about the comment regarding Europe not being seen as important by most Linfield fans. It seems to fly in the face of what Jeffrey was saying about a reduction in European places if there was just one League - that he'd view as a negative whereas the fans already see it as irrelevant.

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Perhaps I worded that wrongly, it is not that Linfield supporters do not see Europe as important, they do. However almost all accept that the league is our bread and butter and far more important and the majority will not go to the expense of taking time off work plus travel costs for a European away game, although I personally rarely miss and I can see our travelling numbers increasing as quite a few young lads have started travelling in recent years.

As for our average home attendance excluding the Glens, I would say around 2500 - 3000 although thgat is a bit of a guestimate. The Drogheda ground was full the other night but there was certainly more than 450 Linfield fans there, maybe 600-700. How they got in is another question. There are rumours of forgeries and it seems quite a few were allowed into away end with home end tickets. We could easily have sold three times our allocation.

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Originally Posted by SwiftsSupporter

You'd do well to get to Dublin in 2 hours nevermind the traffic there.

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dont be silly it can easily be done, especially when the jonesborough section on the M1 is finished.

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Originally Posted by David

As for our average home attendance excluding the Glens, I would say around 2500 - 3000 although thgat is a bit of a guestimate. The Drogheda ground was full the other night but there was certainly more than 450 Linfield fans there, maybe 600-700. How they got in is another question. There are rumours of forgeries and it seems quite a few were allowed into away end with home end tickets. We could easily have sold three times our allocation.

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City's average league gate last season was 3,200, and that was without the benefit of any competitor with large away support. The absence of our nearest rivals Finn Harps in particular reduces our average gates, as they are the only ones who bring a large support.

We had a number of 5-6,000 gates in there as well, against a variety of opponents (Drogheda, Sligo, Shels), and a capacity 7,000 for the last game versus Cork.

We also took huge numbers to our away European games in Scotland and France (2,000+) and outnumbered the Glens fans in the Oval last Monday.

So to answer Dr Nightdub's question - on comparable figures you'd have to say that Derry City were currently the best supported team north and south (as we were in the EL alone last season).

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

City's average league gate last season was 3,200, and that was without the benefit of any competitor with large away support. The absence of our nearest rivals Finn Harps in particular reduces our average gates, as they are the only ones who bring a large support.

We had a number of 5-6,000 gates in there as well, against a variety of opponents (Drogheda, Sligo, Shels), and a capacity 7,000 for the last game versus Cork.

We also took huge numbers to our away European games in Scotland and France (2,000+) and outnumbered the Glens fans in the Oval last Monday.

So to answer Dr Nightdub's question - on comparable figures you'd have to say that Derry City were currently the best supported team north and south (as we were in the EL alone last season).

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How can you say that is comparable? If you include our attendance against Glentoran our average would be closter to 4000(probably around 3700)

We also have over 2500 travel card holders as well.

Make no mistake about it, if we where in the LOI or an all-island league we would pull the biggest attendances.

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Originally Posted by pete

If a new league started with 12 teams in a few years would be only at most maybe 3 IL left in the top division.

Many LOI teams may not be able to afford to be fulltime but many would aspire to do so in the future. I get the impression no club (with possible exception of Linfield) has any fulltime aspirations.

There would be no point to an all island lieague unless was fully professional.

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I do not believe this to be completely true.

Linfield, Glentoran, Portadown & Cliftonville would all compete comfortably in the LOI.

The biggest problem that faces IL football is the fact there are many small teams that do little to entice supporters to come and watch.

If we had a league setup up of

Linfield
Derry City
Glentoran
Drogheda
Shamrock Rovers
Bohemians
Portadown
Cliftonville
Cork City
St Pats
Coleraine
Ballymena
Glenavon
Sligo Rovers

We would all see great increases in crowds, increases in standards and greater exposure.

A lot of Northern Ireland teams are sleeping giants who can all command a good support in big matches.

If we had an All-Island league every match would be a big match and Northern Ireland teams would close the gap very quickly. Although I think only Linfield would have a chance of winning the League from Northern Ireland at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

How can you say that is comparable? If you include our attendance against Glentoran our average would be closter to 4000(probably around 3700)

We also have over 2500 travel card holders as well.

Make no mistake about it, if we where in the LOI or an all-island league we would pull the biggest attendances.

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David gave your average attendances as being 2,500-3,000, and as I'm led to believe Linfield doesn't release official attendances that's all I've had to go on here.

If you have an issue with those figures, I suggest you chat to David to work-out a more accurate figure.

As for the point that you would pull-in the biggest crowds in any all-island league, as your board are so against the idea we'll just never get to know...... ! :D

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

David gave your average attendances as being 2,500-3,000, and as I'm led to believe Linfield doesn't release official attendances that's all I've had to go on here.

If you have an issue with those figures, I suggest you chat to David to work-out a more accurate figure.

As for the point that you would pull-in the biggest crowds in any all-island league, as your board are so against the idea we'll just never get to know...... ! :D

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David gave the average Linfield attendance without including Glentoran. Including Glentoran you could add an extra 6 or 700 to the average gate.

Also your right, there will never be an all-ireland league to find out. But I do believe that Linfield has the highest attendances in the Setanta cup history.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

David gave the average Linfield attendance without including Glentoran. Including Glentoran you could add an extra 6 or 700 to the average gate.

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Likewise, Finn Harps would probably add an extra 150-200 to our average gate, making it 3,400. Under your and David's figures Linfield average would be 3,200-3,700. Not that different from ours - especially when you consider that the furthest journey for away fans visiting Windsor in the Carnegie Premier is less than the shortest journey for away fans visiting the Brandywell in the EL Premier.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Also your right, there will never be an all-ireland league to find out. But I do believe that Linfield has the highest attendances in the Setanta cup history.

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You have a bigger ground, an extra year's head-start, and less restrictions on crowd size than Derry have, so perhaps to-dat that may be true. It will be interesting to see how this year's attendances go. Your attendance on Monday against the Glens - your biggest rivals and a game with no restrictions on attendance - was a poor start....

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Likewise, Finn Harps would probably add an extra 150-200 to our average gate, making it 3,400. Under your and David's figures Linfield average would be 3,200-3,700. Not that different from ours - especially when you consider that the furthest journey for away fans visiting Windsor in the Carnegie Premier is less than the shortest journey for away fans visiting the Brandywell in the EL Premier.



You have a bigger ground, an extra year's head-start, and less restrictions on crowd size than Derry have, so perhaps to-dat that may be true. It will be interesting to see how this year's attendances go. Your attendance on Monday against the Glens - your biggest rivals and a game with no restrictions on attendance - was a poor start....

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Last season I didn't see you selling out your ground too many times in the Setanta, so the size of the ground doesn't matter much.

But what I would say, that if there is any difference in support between Linfield and Derry City as it sits now, would be minimal.

But I would also say that you are in a far better supported league than ours and we would have bigger crowds than we have now if we competed in that league.

Also the reason for a small attendance at the last match was more to do with Glentoran supporters not turning up(around 400 of them).

And we have played 10 times in hte last 10 months. Thats a huge amount of times.

Also the comment about away supports, its very much a non-arguement. Although we have smaller distances, there is a very very poor travelling support that comes to Windsor by other teams. quite often lucky to get as many as 50 fans.(sometimes as little as 3 or 4 fans)

But I will tell you this, if we could have a league with the teams mentioned in an earlier post by me, it would be one heck of a league and the crowds would be up big time especially in the bigger games. We would all be comfortable in full-time football and the money would be pouring in left right and centre.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Last season I didn't see you selling out your ground too many times in the Setanta, so the size of the ground doesn't matter much.

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We played 3 Setanta home games last season - Linfield, Glens, Shels.

Two were sell-outs - Linfield and Glens. We would've gotten a lot more at both had we not been constricted by the size of our stadiums' seated section.

I apologise for failing to achieve a sell-out in one of our 3 Setanta games... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

But what I would say, that if there is any difference in support between Linfield and Derry City as it sits now, would be minimal.

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Agreed. To address Dr Nightdub's point then - Linfield are not clearly the best supported team on the island.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

But I would also say that you are in a far better supported league than ours and we would have bigger crowds than we have now if we competed in that league.

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We're definitely in a better supported league. Dundalk v Finn Harps in the Fisrt Division last night attracted a crowd of c. 2,500. Most Premier clubs in the Carnegie could only dream of that sort of crowd.

Whetehr or not you'd do better if you were in the EL/AIL is just pure speculation. Get your Board to change its position and then we can find out.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Also the reason for a small attendance at the last match was more to do with Glentoran supporters not turning up(around 400 of them).

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You can't blame away fans not turning up for the size of attendances at Windsor. They're your biggest rivals, ffs !!

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

And we have played 10 times in hte last 10 months. Thats a huge amount of times.

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Another reason for an AIL league ! :D

regardless - it didn't matter how many times we played Shels in the past (up until they imploded) as we always had a good crowd for them.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Also the comment about away supports, its very much a non-arguement. Although we have smaller distances, there is a very very poor travelling support that comes to Windsor by other teams. quite often lucky to get as many as 50 fans.(sometimes as little as 3 or 4 fans)

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Becasue the IL is very poorly supported full-stop.

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Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

But I will tell you this, if we could have a league with the teams mentioned in an earlier post by me, it would be one heck of a league and the crowds would be up big time especially in the bigger games. We would all be comfortable in full-time football and the money would be pouring in left right and centre.

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Definitely agree. Please put poressure on your Board to change their position on this. The EL clubs are keen; the Glens are keen; but it can't happen without the Blues.

:ball:

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

regardless - it didn't matter how many times we played Shels in the past (up until they imploded) as we always had a good crowd for them.

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Yet it was the only game you did not sell out. Linfield v Glentoran is by far the best attended fixture anywhere on the island.

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Originally Posted by David

Yet it was the only game you did not sell out. Linfield v Glentoran is by far the best attended fixture anywhere on the island.

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Not by Monday's standards it isn't ! :)

We had more at our Setanta game versus Shels last year than you did at your Setanta game vs Glens on Monday - and our Shels game last year was our least well attended Setanta clash....

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Not by Monday's standards it isn't ! :)

We had more at our Setanta game versus Shels last year than you did at your Setanta game vs Glens on Monday - and our Shels game last year was our least well attended Setanta clash....

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Likewise with our game against the Glens. Probably due to their performances in it Glentoran support does not really turn out for Setanta games and figures will show that. Linfield v Glentoran in other competitions regularly attracts crowds of 10000 plus. What other fixture in Ireland does this. I cannot believe that even you are arguing that the Blues Glens games are not the best attended on the island.