State to purchase M50 West Link Toll Bridge

I don't know the financial details of PPP road projects but i agree its hard to see how makes financial sense for the government in the long term. Easy to see why makes sense financially in the short term.

Again don't know the figures for the school PPP but they would seem to make sense. The private company builds & maintains the building, by having numerous schools in its portfolio the private company can make cost savings. The state sticks to what it does best which is education. In fact this would be good model for hospitals too.

anything that has gone on in the PPP in terms of building roads has been done on time and ( mostly ) within budget.

look the mullingar to maynooth bypass extension, it was finished before expected!

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Originally Posted by pete

Again don't know the figures for the school PPP but they would seem to make sense. The private company builds & maintains the building, by having numerous schools in its portfolio the private company can make cost savings. The state sticks to what it does best which is education. In fact this would be good model for hospitals too.

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Same as roads, it doesn't make economic sense for Governments to go down this route of funding. The cheapest most economically sensible approach is for Government to borrow the money, and build and maintain schools, hopsitals etc. Private companies cannot borrow at the same low rates as Governments, so even with cost savings in maintenance (by employing cheap agency labour with no employment rights), they can't do it for less than the Government even before they add in their nice healthy profit on the top.

PPPs are just another example of Governments doing whats best for their big business mates at the expense of the tax payer. They get away with it, because the electorate haven't got away from the view that debt is bad (okay), when it's debt for current expenditure that's the problem and unsustainable. Debt for Capital Investment isn't a problem.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

anything that has gone on in the PPP in terms of building roads has been done on time and ( mostly ) within budget.

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That's down to the contracts used. If a non toll PPP is being built, there's no reason why the contract can't put in penalities for late finishes and increased payments for ahead of schedule. And infact it's one of the few things this Government belated got right was changing of the contracts - fortunately for their construction industry buddies this was offset by the move to PPPs.

They now give all major infrastructure projects a ridiculously long finish time and high budget though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they try and claim that the Port tunnel is on time and under budget - they claimed it with the Luas afterall!

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Originally Posted by pete

Again don't know the figures for the school PPP but they would seem to make sense. The private company builds & maintains the building, by having numerous schools in its portfolio the private company can make cost savings. .

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Where PPP/PFI schools and hospitals have been built in England and the North they have been unmitigated disasters. Poorly built, badly designed but the main thing is someone makes a profit so its ok.

Its PFS, partnership for schools bohs! Thats changing by the way, they have brought in a new system to scale on metrics and indexes.

Same thing though no matter what they call it. When I said PFI I was refering to Private Finance Initiatives.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Where PPP/PFI schools and hospitals have been built in England and the North they have been unmitigated disasters. Poorly built, badly designed but the main thing is someone makes a profit so its ok.

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Surely this is down to inefficient oversight by the government departments?

Its a bit like the M50 toll bridge. Braindead contracts & lack of forward thinking by the government & Department what signed such a contract has us in the current state. NTR are a pricate company with shareholders not a charity.

More a case of politicians mates getting the contracts I'd imagine. That and the fact that the incentive for these guys is to do the job as cheaply as possible to maximise profit.

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Originally Posted by pete

Its a bit like the M50 toll bridge. Braindead contracts & lack of forward thinking by the government & Department what signed such a contract has us in the current state.

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As I said earlier, check the signatories to the deal, and draw your own conclusions.*


*It was Pee Flynn and George Redmond if you're too lazy to look it up.

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Originally Posted by Macy

*It was Pee Flynn and George Redmond if you're too lazy to look it up.

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I am too lazy so thanks for the info. I am surprised the Controller & Auditor Genral did not raise concerns about the deal when done. AFAIk thats an Independent Office that Reports to Dail Committee not just the government. I think it has juristiction on state contracts?

Not sure whether they've investigated the deal, but they only recently (last couple of years) audited the scheme, and options for paying it off. Iirc they uncovered large underpayments to Government from NTR. It was pretty obvious that car use would grow so hard to imagine the case for giving a private company a 30 year contract for collecting tolls rather than up to a set amount.