Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic for Eircom League?

Cliftonville had been approached on several occassions to join various North - South league set ups, none of which ever materialised nor which Cliftonville ever agreed to join. An AIL in some format, is only a matter of time imo.

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Would it be a good thing for a west belfast side to join the Eircom league? The Derry City phenomenon could easily be re-created in west belfast. There is huge potential. Ive often wondered why Cliftonville never joined the real irish league.

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Daft question to be fair Finn Park. And not just for the lazy stereotype that Cliftonville are Catholic/Nationalist so presumably must be from West Belfast.

What possible grounds would either Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic have to jump ship ? The desire to join a Catholic/Nationalist league ?? :eek: Both had reasons to consider making such a move in the 80's and 90's - Cliftonville when they were forced to play all games versus Linfield at Windsor, and DC when they found themselves unable to join the league, and also for the aftermath of their riotous Cup game at Windsor.

And why dd you narrow it to 2 Belfast teams ? If you wanted to fish for clubs to leave the IL for the EL, Newry would make the most sense logistically and geographically.

The only way clubs from either side of the border are likely to end up playing each other in the league would be under an all-island structure.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Boyce was not President of our club. He was Chairman until 1998. He is currently an Honorary VP and our Co.Antrim Steel & Sons Cup rep.

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Apologies Mr Parker.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Cliftonville when they were forced to play all games versus Linfield at Windsor

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By whom and why?

one of my main objections to any ail is simply down to travelling. (i have other objections but i'll stick with travel at the minute)
one of the more interesting parts of following a team is going to away matches, but i'm not sure i could afford the time or money to travel all round ireland every other week on god knows which day to watch my team.

the clubs themselves would still mostly have part time players and they would have to make all sorts of arrangements at work/home to make time for most midweek away matches. i'm not sure its feasible or fair to ask that of them.

would the home gates increase enough to cover the (even smaller) away gate?

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Would it be a good thing for a west belfast side to join the Eircom league? The Derry City phenomenon could easily be re-created in west belfast. There is huge potential. Ive often wondered why Cliftonville never joined the real irish league.

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Maybe your club would benefit from joining the "real irish League" (ie: the association that wasn't formed after a split). After all, you could cut down on those travel costs that seem to have your club up pmt creek without a sanitary towel.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

one of my main objections to any ail is simply down to travelling. (i have other objections but i'll stick with travel at the minute)
one of the more interesting parts of following a team is going to away matches, but i'm not sure i could afford the time or money to travel all round ireland every other week on god knows which day to watch my team.

the clubs themselves would still mostly have part time players and they would have to make all sorts of arrangements at work/home to make time for most midweek away matches. i'm not sure its feasible or fair to ask that of them.

would the home gates increase enough to cover the (even smaller) away gate?

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Lamb, you do realise that it takes 1/2 hour longer to get to Dublin than backwaters like Omagh and Drumahoe?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

Lamb, you do realise that it takes 1/2 hour longer to get to Dublin than backwaters like Omagh and Drumahoe?

:confused:

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You're slipping up ....you're quoting 'all our yesterdays'. ;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

By whom and why?

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I assume your question is leading, as you must know the answer to this....!?!

By either the Irish League or the IFA. For 'security reasons'.

Probably in the same way that the Brandywell was deemed unsafe for security reasons in 1973, despite both the army and the RUC stating publically that it posed no security issues...

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I assume your question is leading, as you must know the answer to this....!?!

By either the Irish League or the IFA. For 'security reasons'.

Probably in the same way that the Brandywell was deemed unsafe for security reasons in 1973, despite both the army and the RUC stating publically that it posed no security issues...

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It was a vote of the clubs that deemed the Brandywell unsafe - Linfield, Glentoran, Ards, Crusaders, Glenavon and Distillery voted against going back.

For the record Portadown proposed that they go back with Cliftonville, Bangor, Ballymena and Derry (obviously) supporting. Coleraine abstained which went down very badly.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I assume your question is leading, as you must know the answer to this....!?!
By either the Irish League or the IFA. For 'security reasons'.

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On the instruction of the RUC, who made the decision. Hobson's choice for the Irish League Officials.

Who decided that Cliftonville's "home" games v Linfield would be played at Windsor Park?

The PSNI continue to make decisions which are hugely unpopular with Linfield fans surrounding Cliftonville V Linfield fixtures at Solitude - but at least it's at Solitude nowadays.

"despite both the army and the RUC stating publically that it posed no security issues..."

Some Ballymena supporters might disagree with them.

I also seen for myself the obvious "security issues" at The Brandywell and it's environs. So much so, that my young son will never set foot in the place again.

Not the fault of Derry City or the Club's officials, I hasten to add, but a fact that for Linfield supporters going to the Brandywell, nothing has changed in over 30 years in terms of the "security issues" they face in going there.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

one of my main objections to any ail is simply down to travelling. (i have other objections but i'll stick with travel at the minute)
one of the more interesting parts of following a team is going to away matches, but i'm not sure i could afford the time or money to travel all round ireland every other week on god knows which day to watch my team.

the clubs themselves would still mostly have part time players and they would have to make all sorts of arrangements at work/home to make time for most midweek away matches. i'm not sure its feasible or fair to ask that of them.

would the home gates increase enough to cover the (even smaller) away gate?

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A lot of clubs are Dublin based which can be done comfortably in two hours from Belfast, it is only an hour past Newry. Cork, Waterford and Limerick (should the latter two make any all Ireland set up) are the only ones that will be any great distance and if you look at the travel in comparison to other leagues then it is still relatively little. You would still have your games against teams from Northern Ireland. Their may be few away supporters at some games but to be frank this is already the case with a lot of clubs and increased sponsorship and, I believe, increased home support would more than make up for this.

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Originally Posted by David

A lot of clubs are Dublin based which can be done comfortably in two hours from Belfast, it is only an hour past Newry. Cork, Waterford and Limerick (should the latter two make any all Ireland set up) are the only ones that will be any great distance and if you look at the travel in comparison to other leagues then it is still relatively little. You would still have your games against teams from Northern Ireland. Their may be few away supporters at some games but to be frank this is already the case with a lot of clubs and increased sponsorship and, I believe, increased home support would more than make up for this.

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aye, sure its only 2 hours after work on a weekday evening.
not forgetting possibly having to travel home from work, the remains of rush hour traffic along the way, or the 2 hour return after the game, the extra expense involved. even sunday evening games would be a no-no for most people.
basically you've got saturday afternoon or possibly sunday afternoon if you want to watch your team away for most games.
its just not feasible for most people.
whilst the extra sponsorship and possibly bigger home gates may negate the financial loss for a club, it doesn't help the ordinary fan who can only go every other week, seeing their club half as much as they can now, unless they made huge sacrifices in terms of taking hols from work, expenses, lost family time etc etc.nor will it help the atmosphere at grounds, which, lets be honest, is part of the reason people are attracted to watching football in the first place.

imagine this -
cork v larne (whatever day)
larne v coleraine
bohs v larne (fri evening)
waterford v larne (whatever day)
thats realistically 1 game in a month for larne fans to watch their team. no thanks.

all in all i stand by what i say. its not for me. (and take into account i've only missed 3 games, friendly or competitive, in the last 3 years+)

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Originally Posted by finnpark

Would it be a good thing for a west belfast side to join the Eircom league? The Derry City phenomenon could easily be re-created in west belfast. There is huge potential. Ive often wondered why Cliftonville never joined the real irish league.

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Cliftonville as another poster pointed out are a north Belfast club and in their early amatuer days (they are the second oldest club in Ireland) were probably 99% Protestant. They only became a mainly "Catholic" club after demographic changes in North Belfast in the early seventies.

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Originally Posted by gspain

Note although the bulk of the current support is probably mainly catholic/nationalist the support in the Irish League days was mixed. Even looking at Irish League programmes approx half the adverts are for businesses in Derry and the other half for those in Londonderry. Joining the LoI and playing sunday football (virtually all games were on a sunday in the 80's) would have alienated a lot of the protestants/unionists i nthe city who would have supported the Irish League team. In fairness to the club there is no reason why anybody would be alienated from following them as they are totally apolitical and the fans do not sing any sectarian songs etc.

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Even their colours have no sectarian associatons because they adopted their red and white candy stripes in the 1930's from Sheffield United because their manager World War I veteran Billy Gillespie played for them.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Ramone

(they are the second oldest club in Ireland)

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No doubt Parker will be along soon. :D

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Originally Posted by David

No doubt Parker will be along soon. :D

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Well he does have a nosey on here from time to time!! ;) :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

On the instruction of the RUC, who made the decision. Hobson's choice for the Irish League Officials.

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Would that be the same RUC who stated publically that there were no security or safety issues in using the Brandywell in 1973 ? Hobson's Choice indeed - though only when it suits the Irish League Management Committee it would seem...

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"despite both the army and the RUC stating publically that it posed no security issues..."

Some Ballymena supporters might disagree with them.

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Really ? Is that why their club voted for a return to the Brandywell then ??? :rolleyes:

And are you suggesting that the football fans of one club were better informed of the security situation on the other side of the province form where they lived than the RUC were ?? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

[I also seen for myself the obvious "security issues" at The Brandywell and it's environs. So much so, that my young son will never set foot in the place again.

Not the fault of Derry City or the Club's officials, I hasten to add, but a fact that for Linfield supporters going to the Brandywell, nothing has changed in over 30 years in terms of the "security issues" they face in going there.

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For the record - yes, a lot has actually changed with the "security issues" outside the Brandywell in 30 years.

There were never incidents of supporters or their vehicles being selected for attack in Derry's Irish League days (the Balymena bus that got hijacked was empty at the time, and was merely taken along with anything else they could find to use as barricades). The same sadly could not be said of buses and stadiums elsewhere in the province - including Windsor, and including very recent events.

I even recall a hand grenade being thrown into a certain ground 15 or so years after Derry City were forced out of the league. I wonder what penalties that club were forced to suffer for such clear 'security issues' regarding their stadium.... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Paddy Ramone

Even their colours have no sectarian associatons because they adopted their red and white candy stripes in the 1930's from Sheffield United because their manager World War I veteran Billy Gillespie played for them.

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There had been a Derry Celtic club in the early part of the 20th Centur. When Derry City was established in 1928, the club consciously chose the name 'City' over 'Celtic', as they didn't want a religious affiliation or association for the team.

And so the 'neutral' policy has continued to the present day...

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

aye, sure its only 2 hours after work on a weekday evening.
not forgetting possibly having to travel home from work, the remains of rush hour traffic along the way, or the 2 hour return after the game, the extra expense involved. even sunday evening games would be a no-no for most people.
basically you've got saturday afternoon or possibly sunday afternoon if you want to watch your team away for most games.
its just not feasible for most people.
whilst the extra sponsorship and possibly bigger home gates may negate the financial loss for a club, it doesn't help the ordinary fan who can only go every other week, seeing their club half as much as they can now, unless they made huge sacrifices in terms of taking hols from work, expenses, lost family time etc etc.nor will it help the atmosphere at grounds, which, lets be honest, is part of the reason people are attracted to watching football in the first place.

imagine this -
cork v larne (whatever day)
larne v coleraine
bohs v larne (fri evening)
waterford v larne (whatever day)
thats realistically 1 game in a month for larne fans to watch their team. no thanks.

all in all i stand by what i say. its not for me. (and take into account i've only missed 3 games, friendly or competitive, in the last 3 years+)

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I'm staggered by your 'grumpy old man' mediocrity.

Why don't you just get Larne to join a South Antrim league, and save yourself troublesome away trips to far-off climes like Ballymena and Portadown.... :rolleyes: