You think Collins had better results....
I doubt it,
2006
Shels v FK Vetra 4-0 1-0
2005
Shels v Steaua 0-0 1-4
Shels v Glentoran 4-1 2-1
2004
Shels v Lille 2-2 0-2
Shels v Deportivo 0-0 0-3
Shels v Hajduk 2-0 2-3
Shels v KR 0-0 2-2
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You think Collins had better results....
I doubt it,
2006
Shels v FK Vetra 4-0 1-0
2005
Shels v Steaua 0-0 1-4
Shels v Glentoran 4-1 2-1
2004
Shels v Lille 2-2 0-2
Shels v Deportivo 0-0 0-3
Shels v Hajduk 2-0 2-3
Shels v KR 0-0 2-2
Think you missed a year there higgins... ;)
2003
Shels v Hibernians 0-1 1-1
Wrong !Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
2003
Shels v Olimpija Ljubljana 2-3 0-1
Thread was about the 4-5-1 system. a system Fenlon decided to go for mainly over the last 2 or 3 seasons.
Anyway bringing up the Hibs result doesnt go against the other results being better than the plastering idiots...
Well, he confirmed he would use 4-5-1 in a article in 'The Irish Sun' today DESPITE winning 3-0 against St Pat's in what he described as one of the clubs best performances in a long time where he played Jason Byrne and Crowe up front!Quote:
Originally Posted by LeixlipRed
Why can't we play to our strengths!?!?
I was at the Bohs vs Odense match ( probably 10 years ago ) and the Bohs manager played 5-4-1, which the team wasn't used to. Bohs completely surrendered possession to Odense in that one striker was never going to take the ball off / pressure 4 defenders, meanwhile the Bohs extra centreback was a combination of a spectator and a hindrance to the other two centrebacks. Fenlon is about the make the same mistake ( surrendering possession ). Hence my original comments 'Has he learnt nothing??????????' ( from Shels previous experiences ) :mad:
A couple of points
Do you know what system Odense play ?
and
Do you think fenlon would leave it at 4-5-1 if it doesnt work?
He gives a lot of respect to the opponent regardless of who they are. Somewhere along the way if the system is not working I can see him changing it but we have a very good record and to change it now might be wrong.
You cant really say the players are new to the european system he plays. Most of them are well used to it by now.
A lot of teams in europe go away from home and adapt this 4-5-1 system. Especially with the first leg being away from home, theres a lot of football to be played in two legs. Some of the Champions League regulars are as defensive as Fenlon is away from home.
No use going for it from the first minute and losing by two or three because he under estimated them.
One further point!
4-5-1 can be attacking or defensive... The numbers dont have a lot to do with it really.
Take FK Vetra,
Away we were basically playing 1 up front with everyone else sticking to their positions and giving nothing away, Defensive.
Home we had plenty running from midfield and getting in behind them and not afraid to go and attack, Attacking.
We beat Pats 3-0 at home we are playing OB Odense away.
Two different games
The Olimpija manager said Shels were the worst team he had ever seen.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Where are Olimpija now :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Dead. They had already lost all their best players by the time they played you. They spent a lot more money on big name players and a big squad than they were taking in. Hmmmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Very vocal on the subject there poor student, not having any european exploits of your own I suppose would force you to talk absolute crap here, we're still in europe, fai cup, league cup and top of the league, I'm a lot happier here then I would be out belfield way, thats for sure...
How many times can you be wrong in one thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
They had not lost all their best players by the time they played us....
They still are one of the best european teams I have seen come to Tolka. We went out chasing the game from the start which was a little silly but they did give us a lesson that Deportivo Lille and Steaua didnt. Which kind of brings us back to the original point of is 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 the answer?
I'm only telling you what Besirovic said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra Red
We've had our own forays into Europe, including being very close to putting out the eventual winners of the tournament.
How would you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Because at the time I had looked into what sort of team they were adn although they had sold a couple of players they still had a strong squad and were no walkover (as the result shows)...
Suppose you can back up your original statement of them selling their best players?
Try Robert Prosinecki and Miran Pavlin for two. Prosinecki was the only thing they had going for them the previous season. He single handedly won them the cup. Scored a sublime goal against Publikum in the final in the away leg.
Pavlin was an experienced international who played in the major international championships for Slovenia.
I didn't say they sold anyone. Prosinecki left because they weren't paying him.
he was also about 67!
You wouldn't believe how well he could control a game despite not being able to move an inch. I've seen him even more recently in a charity match of Yugoslav greats v Slovenian WC 2002 team and he was still the star of the show, scoring the winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
No. Fair point. Does Fenlon? What system do they have to play for us to have an advantage at 4-5-1? 3-5-2 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Quite possibly. Besides, trying to retrieve a situation with limited time remaining doesn't always work and if anything you can end up giving away more goals if you chase the game too much and are hit on the break. Better to have a good balance from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Are you sure it's such a good record? Aren't the majority of the good results a draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Fair enough. So we're stuck in our ways then? Besides, I was talking about Bohs at the time and didn't mean to say this was the case for Shels.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Fair point. My overall point is that it is BRUTAL to watch. It's a great joy for me to watch Shels in Europe, but when they play 4-5-1 longball it breaks my heart. I doubt the other european teams you mention boot the ball up to the lone striker as soon as they get it? In the close confines of Tolka ( and any other small pitches ) players don't get the same time on the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
Bit of a presumption -that we'd always lose heavily if we attack from the start? Also a presumption that we're always the weaker team.Quote:
Originally Posted by higgins
A lot of managers would say that attack is the best defence -the opposition aren't likely to score if they don't have the ball or if the majority of the play is in their half.
Besides, we have to score at some stage to go through ( unless you're hoping for a win on penalties ) and sooner we score an AWAY goal than a home goal.
I dont like the hoof to nobody football either. The games against steaua were rubbish as we cleared our lines everytime we got the ball. I was trying to point out that a 4-5-1 can be attacking or defensive and the numbers are not the main issue.
At the start of a game in europe both teams try to suss each other out and I think the 4-5-1 is the best way to do this. I would agree that Fenlon is sometimes slow (or appears to be) to change things around and he doesnt go for the killer goal when we are on top but I have to point out that we have nearly always been the weaker team.
I do think draws are good results especially when the teams are Lille, Steaua and deportivo. We have been punching above our weight in europe now for a few seasons and although it has been hard to watch at times we have got results against the better sides more often than not.
4-5-1 is ok away from home in my opinion but I would agree that the 4-4-2 should not be ignored completely. Playing the ball to players feet and trying to keep possession is key, the kick and rush out tactics wont work even if you played a 4-3-3!
Im not the biggest fan of the tactics either but then I think about what has happened in the past when we went for games. Like it or not we are playing seeded sides nearly every round and are always the weaker side.
:rolleyes: Like we've never been in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra Red
Funny that. I'm a lot happier here than I would be out Tolka way, that's for sure. Probably all the stuff going around about liquidations, unpaid bills, a ground sold with no solid plans for a new one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra Red
UCD are possibly the only EL/LOI team never to have had an embarrassing display in Europe. 1984/85 European Cup Winners Cup lost 0-1 to eventual winners Everton on aggregate. 2000/01 Intertoto Cup lost on away goals to Bulgarian Opposition who in later years, merged with a Bigger club and won their League.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu