State of the Nation

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Originally Posted by Dassa

I dont know very much about ROI party politics but was always curious to see if people down south think that a coalition of 2 parties ideas brings a positive influence governing politics and policies.

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The benefit of a coalition obviously depends on who the partners are in it, as they both/all need to get something from the deal politically.

Broadly though, coalition is often a good thing, as it takes the sharper/extreme/more unpopular edges off of the bigger parties. For example, it's extremely unlikely that Blair would've been able to take Britain to war against Iraq so easily if he'd been in a coalition with a smaller partner (like the Lib Dems, fo example).

In somewhere like Northern Ireland, I would go so far as to say that coalitions should be compulsory, as history there shows how the larger community is often unable to wield power in an equitable manner.

If there ever was a united Ireland, it would probably be the Unionist block in parliament who would hold the deciding cards and be perrenial coalition partners in an all-island government. That would no doubt be of huge benefit to the North-east of the island, as they could make heavy demands in return for their ongoing support.

Sadly, all pie in the sky though. Northern Ireland is politically destined to remain a tiny bit-part player on a big stage, rather than one of the key players on a much smaller one.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

In somewhere like Northern Ireland, I would go so far as to say that coalitions should be compulsory, as history there shows how the larger community is often unable to wield power in an equitable manner.

If there ever was a united Ireland, it would probably be the Unionist block in parliament who would hold the deciding cards and be perrenial coalition partners in an all-island government. That would no doubt be of huge benefit to the North-east of the island, as they could make heavy demands in return for their ongoing support.

Sadly, all pie in the sky though. Northern Ireland is politically destined to remain a tiny bit-part player on a big stage, rather than one of the key players on a much smaller one.

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Wasnt really considering it in a NI context as any future NI politics from Stormont will be coalition as a result of Assembly rules. Personally altough Im not a unionist I have no interest in NI playing any part in this much smaller stage you mention. I want to see much greater government decisions for NI made by NI people like that seen in Scotland. Altough Westminster has a large say still. I hope the future for the UK lies in the 4 countries having a say in their own affairs even more.

Personally think it would be great to see coalition government in UK as it means the minority would have a say which is vital in any government. The ROI government have shown that coalitions can work.

If Labour keep going the way they're going, and the Tories continue to make small but not substantial improveemnts in their standing, it is highly likely there'll be a hung-parliament in Britain after the next election. Here's hoping, as that would be when things would start to get interesting...

As for devolving more power to NI - totally agree with you. But we'll get nowhere near the power that Scotland has, and probably not even as much as Wales. The simple fact is that for as long as Northern Ireland had any power it was routinely abused. Until the new institutions prove themselves capable of wiedling power equiatbly, there is zero chance of any significant authority coming NI's way. And rightly so.

couldnt agree more with you steve. it annoys me to see Englishmen making decisions on my behalf. i personally think that in the long term we will get as much power as we want especially with a labour party in office. However i dont trust one party in NI to take advantage of it. I would love to see real politics in this country with politicians questioned on policies not just basic constititional issues. Steve if there was a hung parliament next time which potential coalitions can you see arising. You have the historic Tory-Unionists combined votes maybe labour-Lib Dems?

What NI needs is the setting up of major political parties here. i personally think labours attitude to residing NI peoples interest in labour is a huge mistake on their behalf.

PR system of elections is destined to create coalition government. First Past the post means can bring 205 support like Lib Dems but have minimal seats in the Parliament. For all its failings PR is infinitely better.

I was thinking about this over the weekend and it occoured to me that in the event that FF and SF have enough seats combined to go into government (which I think is very likely) it means that FG cannot enter government.

That would make for some very interesting post-election politics.

Only problems with coalitions is that it can lead to a case of the tail wagging the dog. Certainly the PDs got far greater say thatn their paltry election results deserved.

As it is, no party appeals to me (would favour Lanour above most but they just seem incompetant at the moment)

think thats the problem with many people in many countries, people tell us to get out and vote to have a say but what if no-ones saying what you want them to.

hamish

"The Age Of Uncertainty" was a great TV series. JK Galbraith was responsible for me becoming vaguely interested in Economics. What followed 1977 was two of the most tedious years study of the subject up to Leaving Cert with that dreadful text book " Economics At Work". But for years I never forgave Galbraith for selling me a pup! May he rest in peace!!!

The danger of coalition governments , for the uninitiated , is sometimes the tail wags the dog!
The advantage is the smaller party can by the same token , curb the excesses of the larger party!

If we go back to 1919 when Dail Eireann was founded essentially in the terms of the parties in existence back then the situation is like this.
There was back then mainly The LABOUR PARTY which we still have today and
SINN FEIN 1919 Split over the treaty into Cumman na Gaedhal( 1922) who became Fine Gael in 1932, and then into Fianna Fail ( 1926) and then what was known as The Third Sinn Fein split into (a) Official Sinn Fein/The Workers Party (1970) who in turn split into Democratic Left (late 1980's) who merged with the Labour Party (mid 1990's). That left(b) The Provisional Sinn Fein wing of 1970 which split into the Irish Republic Socialist Party ( 1970's) and Republican Sinn Fein ( 1980's). Fianna Fail in turn spawned Independent Fianna Fail (1970) numerous independent T.D.'s ( 1926- to date) and the Progressive Democrats( 1986).

So one could argue , given that every government since 1922 has included either Fine Gael/Cumann Na Gaedhal or Fianna Fail, that we have been governed by the 1919 version of Sinn Fein, in some shape or form, since the Brits left Dublin Castle!

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

The danger of coalition governments , for the uninitiated , is sometimes the tail wags the dog!

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So you get the situation where an extremely small party holds the power, as opposed to the supposedly unfair first past the post system where the party holding power at least has around 40% (36% in the UK I think) of the vote. 40% v 4% - I know which looks fairer to me, especially after 9 years suffering under the PD's.

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Originally Posted by Macy

So you get the situation where an extremely small party holds the power, as opposed to the supposedly unfair first past the post system where the party holding power at least has around 40% (36% in the UK I think) of the vote. 40% v 4% - I know which looks fairer to me, especially after 9 years suffering under the PD's.

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Sorry Macy but that doesn't add up -as it implies things would've been substantially different if FF were in on their own or with a different partner. Fianna Fáil could've and most likely did make overtures to Labour after 2002 -if only for a stronger majority -but for the fact that FF are idealogically closer to the PDs and are very happy to work with them even with a reduced majority.

Your post suggests you believe Berties nonsense about being a socialist and the late Brian Lenihans about FF being a party of the near left.

If the PDs make the most of what they bring to the cabinet and government -well good luck to them.

If it was the green party, who I very much would like to see given a crack in government, they'd do likewise and they'd be right to.

I'll also remind Mypost that it's FF's star pupil Mary Hanafin who recently said straight out on Q and A, in an uncharacteristicly non-evasive answer, that she simply wasn't prepared to spend the money needed to bring our primary schools up to code and get class sizes down to rest-of-the-developed-world levels. How's that for detesting the spending of money?

The only thing I can see that we'd have now if FF were in on their own is a bloated mess of a vanity project out in Abbottstown, costing 10 to 12 times it's initial estimate and which the FAI and IRFU maintain they'd only manage to actually fill once a decade each.

On their own - I wouldn't let Fianna Fáil mind my bike.

how can they not be prepared to spend money when they throw it away and waste it (eg electronic voting system) so much. ??? tighter controls on how money is spent...ie more bang for your buck would do the country the power of good regardless of who was in power. cant say i agree with a system that allows a party who got feck all actual votes to basically run the government.

Well if FF and FG would only acknowledge that very little divides them in terms of policy and so either a) merge or b ) go into coalition together these tail wagging dog stories would evaporate and a credible alternative political force would possibly emerge rather than the forty shades of blue that dominate Irish politics.

People get the government they vote for, they know how the system works and frankly I'm far happier to have our system rather than the UKs where, if applied here, FF would be in government on their own, with one in three of the electorates votes, in perpetuity.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Sorry Macy but that doesn't add up -as it implies things would've been substantially different if FF were in on their own or with a different partner. Fianna Fáil could've and most likely did make overtures to Labour after 2002 -if only for a stronger majority -but for the fact that FF are idealogically closer to the PDs and are very happy to work with them even with a reduced majority.

Your post suggests you believe Berties nonsense about being a socialist and the late Brian Lenihans about FF being a party of the near left.

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No, I think that FF are a right wing party too. Their terms in Government have shown that. However, that doesn't change the fact that a tiny party with a tiny vote wield a lot of power. Who's responsible for that is a different matter, and yes it does suit FF to hide behind Harney's considerable skirt, and McDowells even more considerable venomous mouth.

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Originally Posted by klein4

cant say i agree with a system that allows a party who got feck all actual votes to basically run the government.

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Another problem with coalitions is that in general, fewer things get done. Unlike in 1977, we are a rich country now, and if FF won their overall majority last time, there would be a better chance of tackling the issues facing the country, with greater financial muscle. We would be better able to absorb the high cost to the public purse, of reforming the health service, to give the police greater powers to crack down on crime at all levels, Abbottstown would now rival Croke Park as a sports venue to admire, and be an aspiration for future generations to participate in, instead of getting the chop; Transport would be greatly improved around the country.

Instead, we have the same problems in the health service as before; chronic bed, and staff shortages, teamed up with underfunded/unused/non-existent services, the number of road deaths has snowballed on poor quality roads, while speeding motorists are let off court convictions on technicalities. In general, sports infrastructure at all levels of participation, is at best terrible, and at worst in an embarrasingly appalling state. The number of new Garda recruits has, (far from being significantly boosted as promised), actually been reduced. Dublin Airport still has no second terminal, the airport becomes ever more overcrowded, and weary passengers and staff snap at each other easily. We annually see a surplus in the government's budget, rather than budgets spent.

In 2002, the country had an opportunity to give a one-party administration the opportunity to reform the country, because someone has to do it. The consequences of electing another coalition has meant that less money has been spent, less targets have been achieved, and fewer projects have been completed, while those that have been completed, have ended up being way overdue, and well over-budget.

Electing a coalition last time, was a vital opportunity to reform, missed. It is improbable to suggest that the status quo will change next time. It will be a two, or even a three-way coalition. Such a coalition will mean even less money spent, more indecision, and more inertia for the country.

Less money spent? No Government has ever spent more, but then again no Government has wasted as much either. The biggest waste of the lot is Decentralisation, which was a FF policy decision.

Martin made such a difference in health when he was in charge, such improvements took place; O'Donoghue in Justice sorted out the cops and the robbers; McDaid and O'Donoghue in Arts, Sport and Tourism building the sporting infrastructure; Brennan and Cullen sorting out the roads... FF ministers have had the budgets and the time to sort out all the problems you list. And lest we forget, the PD's were FF's preferred coalition partners, so can hardly say they are now holding them back from what they want to do.

The PD's have more power than their vote deserves, I stand by that, but that by no means exonerates FF.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

If we go back to 1919 when Dail Eireann was founded essentially in the terms of the parties in existence back then the situation is like this.
There was back then mainly The LABOUR PARTY which we still have today and
SINN FEIN 1919 Split over the treaty into Cumman na Gaedhal( 1922) who became Fine Gael in 1932, and then into Fianna Fail ( 1926) and then what was known as The Third Sinn Fein split into (a) Official Sinn Fein/The Workers Party (1970) who in turn split into Democratic Left (late 1980's) who merged with the Labour Party (mid 1990's). That left(b) The Provisional Sinn Fein wing of 1970 which split into the Irish Republic Socialist Party ( 1970's) and Republican Sinn Fein ( 1980's). Fianna Fail in turn spawned Independent Fianna Fail (1970) numerous independent T.D.'s ( 1926- to date) and the Progressive Democrats( 1986).

So one could argue , given that every government since 1922 has included either Fine Gael/Cumann Na Gaedhal or Fianna Fail, that we have been governed by the 1919 version of Sinn Fein, in some shape or form, since the Brits left Dublin Castle!

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one correction, the IRSP didnt come out of PSF, they evolved out of Officials and were led by Seamus Costello, a popular Bray councillor

I can see the FF election slogan now "...Its the PDs fault we couldn't solve crime, health, road safety, sporting infrastructure, transport issues etc...Give is a majority & we will do it... " :rolleyes:

I think the biggest problem with current government politicians is the tendency to just throw money at issues without any imagination..."