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That's true to a certain extent. France has a revolutionary and rebellious culture. 1789, 1792, 1830, 1848, 1871, 1968 and maybe 2005? Since 1789 the French have a propensity so rush to some sort of rebellion when they feel they need change.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
so pete, you expect the french workers and soon to be workers to just accept a major assault on their working conditions? shrug their shoulders and work more for less with no job security?
i liked the line from a protestor 'why should i be explolited by my boss to be a part of villepan's economic experiment'?
and for the record, French union participation is about 5%, its 20% in Ireland.
how many times on this site has the spinelessness of irelands joe public when it comes to being ripped off. the french stand up for themselves and get abuse?:confused:
The unions are very powerful in France. I work for a company that has manufacturing plants in almost every European country and France is where we have the biggest problems. We cannot restruct our operations there like we have done so in other countries because we get so much push back from the unions and it's getting to the point where we might just pull out instead.
There's a lot of views on here defending the brave French employers for standing up to the evil government and employers who want to ruin their lives through subjugation and work insecurity. Someone even drew parallel to Thatcher and the miners strike in mid 1980's England.
Well consider this. The miners strike in England was in 1984. In 1982 the 6 largest industrialized nations in the World all reached historical unemployment peaks. Britain's trate went up to 13%, Frances' to almost 9%. Both were struggling economically. What's interesting is how both countries chose to respond to their crises. Although she did so in completely the wrong way, the bottom line is that Thatcher did the right thing for Britain at that time. In otherwords - she broke the stranglehold the Unions had upon employment in the country (winter of discontent anyone...?), and enabled a shift in the balance of labour involvement from out-dated manufacturing into newer industries. I have never been a fan of Thatcher, but increasingly with time I believe that history will judge her kinder than most of us currently would like to believe.
Meanwhile, in parallel, whilst Britain went through years of pain to address the structural and legislative factors that had CAUSED it to have 13 unemployment, the French did nothing similar. In actual fact, they went into reverse gear and begun re-nationalising large scale industries such as steel, nuclear energy etc.
Fast forward 20years, and guess what. France's unemployment rate has remained stubbornly high throughout - and is currently over 10%. Meanwhile, Britain's economy is flying with an unemployment rate of c. 4.8% (versus economic definition of 'full-employment' as 4% out of work).
So my point is this - people are shat on 1,000 times worse if their government sits idly by and does nothing to create an economy in which unemployment will drop to and remain at low levels. Some people here are so tied-up in misty-eyed left-wing ideology that they refuse to see how any change in Labour conditions could ever bring good to a greater numebr of people, and over a longer period of time. Labour market flexibility is NOT a bad thing when there are plenty of jobs around. What is a bad thing is finding yourself unemployed in modern day France - because due to its rigid Labour market, once you lose a job yer fecked. Hence why people in their 40's and 50's are absolutely terrified that they might be made unemployed, as it would mean the end of their working life. Hence why students are outraged that they've spent years studying for a degree that gets them nothing but a dole cheque in-return.
France has buried its head in the sand for too long. It needs to face some short term pain if it is to have any chance at a longer term gain for ALL its people. A sensible place to start would be their fat greedy farmers who get paid a fortune in EU money to keep them in an incredibly unrpoductive, fringe industry that Western Europe has almost totally moved on from. That should be the French economy's miners strike - though I suspect they don't have a Thatcher in-place to have either the foresight or the balls to do it.
What is wrong with France is as follows:-
IT'S A FORMER EMPIRE ! :D
I agree with all Steves post. As i said its really like just extending the probationary period from 6 months to 12 months as workers still entitled to 1 months notice like Ireland.
Many european countries make it very difficult to employ a new worker as if the company experiences a downturn then very difficult to release the worker. In many countries you need a qulaification before you even start up a corner shop which is just stupid. In Germany for the first year of unemployment you receive 40% of your previous gross salry in unemployment benefit - when you consider how high their tax is that means almost no drop in income so little incentive to find work. My previous employer closed down a couple of years ago & becausew we got good redundency package i had no incentive to find work until i got bored..
By any definition France has high unemployment rate for country of such size & influence. They will have to change to improve things as won't happen by just hoping jobs will appear.
That's what I like about the French - when they want change, they set about getting it and none of yer half-measures. OK, so some stuff gets burned along the way and a few aristocrats have their heads lopped off, but let's face it, the French are pretty good at revolution, and they know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
We, on the other hand, ring Marion Finucane and moan until we're bored enough to go down the pub.
or Joe Duffy:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
Damn ! If only we thought more like the French !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
This 4.3% unemployment rate is a killer - can't a guy just sit on his arse any more and get fat off the offerings of the State ? If only we couild have a real unemployment rate like the French - none of this successful Celtic Tiger nonsense.... :rolleyes: :D
Maybe we should bring Love Ulster back to town again...
Have to say thats a pretty harsh response to NightDub commenting that he liked the French's flair for protesting, I don't think he once said he'd like all aspects of Irish life (unemployment levels or beyond) to be the same as FranceQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Ironically the french usually protest against change - change to employment laws, change to farm subsidies...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
But the French are protesting against the wrong thign !Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
If you're worried about job security etc, then what's better - 10% unemployment, and a geneuine fear that losing your job as a mature adult will see you remain unemployed ? Or changes to the employment structure that over time will almost definitely bring that unemployment level down ?
I'm not necessarily blaming the French themselves here - people rarely see, let alone accept, the bigger picture. But if its change they want then they should be protesting in-favour of shaking up their out-dated economic model so that they can all actually have a genuine chance of employment some time soon.
Again I didn't say that that wasn't true, the only things I've pointed out/argued against in this thread is that you gave a harsh reply to NightDub, and I'd also now like to point out that you did the same to me, and argued against him about a point he didn't even make.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The only other problem I've had with this thread is Pete's initial statement about the French being lazy, or just argumentative, for simple standing up for what they see as their rights. Fair enough if you agree with the proposed employment bill, but argue the merits of said bill, instead of slating a whole nation simply because you disagree with some of their citizen's point of view
But Nightdub's post said : "That's what I like about the French - when they want change, they set about getting it and none of yer half-measures".Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
The reality is the exact opposite. As Pete pointed out, they're very good at protesting AGAINST change. When was the last time the French came out and made a big stink about forcing their government INTO a positive change ?
Hence why I picked Nighdub up on his point. Hence why France as a country is slowly falling apart. The people in power are unwilling or unable to introduce the changes required, whilst the population at large will violently oppose any such change. What's the odds that they've still got 10%+ unemployment in yet another 20yrs, but with even greater social and psychological problems than today....?
Steve, I think you missed the whole tongue-in-cheek-ness of my post (though on a more serious note, the fact that the French have had so many revolutions shows they're actually pretty good at achieving radical change).
More importantly, you're going down the road of blaming France's rate of unemployment on the French unemployed. If only those layabouts would get on their bicyclettes and accept McJobs with reduced or no job security, everything would be hunky-dory? I bet minimum wage legislation must get rightly up your nose as well.
The 10% or whatever it is of the French workforce who are unemployed are SYMPTOMS of a fúcked economy - they're not the CAUSE of it.
This whole thing about how if unions/workers didn't stand in the way of structural changes in the economy then they would be better off in the long term strikes me as a bit dubious. It assumes that the people whose jobs get downsized (or whatever) will be the same ones who reap the benefits of the "new economy." But how many ex-miners find jobs as management execs, or web designers, or whatever?
Take as an example the case of aircraft repair engineers here in the U.S. They're being laid off due to restructuring (it turns out to be cheaper to have the planes repaired outside of the U.S.). Here are guys in their 40's and over, whose craft no longer exists in the country, and who have no other skills. Shouldn't they stand in the way of "progress" and fight to save their jobs? Weren't the miners right to try to do the same?
In essence, the idea seems to be that some folk have to give up their livelihoods (without a fight) so that some completely different group of people get to have a better life 10, 20 years down the road. Why should anyone buy that?
and the next move is a civil war in 2007 after the election of Le pen for president ? :o
If you accept that then you must accept that the french economy needs to change. The greatest contribution the french nation could come up with is to reduce th number of hours people allowed to work so have a 35 hour working week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Nightdub
If Ireland adopted the french social model we'd be back at 20%+ unemployment.
If Le Pen ever gets in I'll grab a rifle myself and join themQuote:
Originally Posted by laurent
nonsense. the french are overwhelmingly against this neo-liberal experiment. they chose stability over flexibility, a choice we never got.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
there is no 'right' economic model that fits all and the french are happy with 15% unemployment, so whats your problem?