What would the Irish B team look like?

I'm in favour of B internationals if treated as a development team. Anyone remember Charlton picking a b squad in 1993/4 with Townsend and Whelan in it? Idiot...

BE a chancee for some of the local lads to see if they're good enough and some of the promising kids in england to see if they can fit with the grown ups. I wouldn't pick anyone over the age of 25 or anybody with more than 5 caps

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Originally Posted by Hither green

I presume a B-international commits you to a country? Stan chatting up any half-decent uncapped english/Irish player is probably the reason england are thinking of having a B-team game.

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After looking into it i don't think it does. They don't even hand out caps for B-internationals.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

you make several points but fail to justify any of them. Firstly, twice you mention that under 21's are where players should be developed to see if they can cut it at international level. Well that is just nonsense, they have to be played against men, players who will chop them to bits. Anyone remember Kevin Kilbanes debut, now he has gone on to play 60 odd games for us. Surely we would have been better discovering that he wasn't ready in a B game and not a full international.

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Couple of points here, are you actually saying that these young players should play a b match so that they can play against players that will "chop them to pieces"??? Jaysus don't think the clubs would be too happy releasing them if that's the case. You're also implying u21's matches are just a walk in the park where no tackles are made and everybody just stands off each other??:eek:
As for KK, you are saying that if he had played a B game then he wouldn't have made it for Ireland? If he wasn't good enough surely one of his various managers would have noticed during one of those 60 matches playing for the first team? Fact of the matter is KK has always done a job for us, but me thinks I'm straying off the point here...

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Originally Posted by livehead1

You mention that A internationals work for rugby but are pointless for football. Your apparent justification is that they are "not really going to help anybody". Maybe you are right, but you must at least attempt to explain why they are not going to help anyone. It is my opinion that they could be extremely helpful to us in gauging whether a player is suitable for international football. Football is full of late developers, John Aldridge and Teddy Sheringham being prime examples. Indeed, it may prove of great benefit to the current international setup if Lee Trundle were to be given a chance in a match under Steven Staunton. We must remember that not always the best players are the suitable for international football. There are a number of english strikers that come to mind on this point such as Andy Cole and Ian Wright. Cole was part of the most feared strike force in Europe at one time but was simply not suited to the game at international level. Perversly it may also be the case that there are a number of players who are not setting the world alive at domestic level, but nevertheless are suited to the game at international level.

And that my friend, is why we should have a B international.

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Oh God, you've got to be kidding me!! Now I'm open for correction here but surely John Aldridge, Teddy Sheringham et al were not discovered during a B international but while playing week-in week-out for their respictive clubs (again open for correction here but wasn't Sheringham well known as a potential England player even back in his Forest days?)

And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...

There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly...

You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...

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You've obviously never seen this particular "fat journeyman" play (three clubs does not a journeyman make, but I digress). He's a better finisher than any forward we've got (yes, even Robbie, whose finishing I consider to be his weakest point, twenty-six goals for his country notwithstanding - he should have at least double that ;) ), he can play with both feet, he is easily the best player in that division (which, let's face it, is on a par with much of the eL top flight) and he has the hunger to play for Ireland. Get him in the next squad, I say.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly...

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Ahh, the matches that Mister Kerr would prioritise above all others. And look where that got us... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

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No comment from me on the patronising tone of your response - I'll leave the right of reply to Livehead on that one.

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

As for KK, you are saying that if he had played a B game then he wouldn't have made it for Ireland? If he wasn't good enough surely one of his various managers would have noticed during one of those 60 matches playing for the first team? Fact of the matter is KK has always done a job for us, but me thinks I'm straying off the point here...

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I don't think your straying of the point, i just don't think you know what your talking about! Can you or anyone else remember KK's debut. I think it was against iceland. He was absolutely awful. Here is a match report that describes mccarthys views of his debut. He also said that after seeing this, it became clear that KK was not ready for international football. Indeed, i think he was left out for about a year after this performance. This could have been avoided at senior international level had this debut been in a B game

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Originally Posted by http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1998/04/22/phead.htm

He did not impress when he was first-choice against Iceland in Reykjavik during the qualifying rounds of the World Cup but he looked much more at home against the Czechs last month.
"I've been very impressed with his level of skill," said McCarthy. "He certainly came back strongly after the nightmare of Iceland and that was a big test of his character.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

Oh God, you've got to be kidding me!! Now I'm open for correction here but surely John Aldridge, Teddy Sheringham et al were not discovered during a B international but while playing week-in week-out for their respictive clubs (again open for correction here but wasn't Sheringham well known as a potential England player even back in his Forest days

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you mean similarly how Trundle is 'well known' as a potential Ireland player, a player you then continue on to label a fat journeyman:rolleyes: . Me thinks you need to have a quick look at some of Eirebhoys vids on him.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...

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you mean a small bit like Aldridge? Who after leaving oxford went on to become an ireland and liverpool legend and also play in spain? For the facts, Trundle didnt turn pro till around 24, he has consistantly proved himself at any level he has been allowed to play at.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly......

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just like brian kerr did? and what would you suppose we do, leave some of the regulars out. Maybe leave stephen reid out so garvan can have a game. Or drop finnan cos kevin foley looks like he might be a decent right back. In fact while were at it, lets give jay tabb a run out, lets leave duff out.

To put it plainly, you can only include so many players in a squad for a 'friendly'. You only get a few dates given to you by fifa each year where you are allowed to play friendlies. i.e. the dates where clubs must release their players to the nations. So if we were to play a b international on the day after or the day before the senior squads game, then it we be a superb oppurtunity to get a look at some more players, mostly young, but a few older lads, in the green shirt of ireland, playing in the positions, formation and style of the national side and seeing if any of them appear up to it.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

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O yes. Brilliant comment. Indeed I and most other people do see the rewards that our current system has brought us. A failure to qualify for FIVE major competitions out of the last six, and have seen ourselves slip to fourth seeds. But ya know, you can't beat the old tried and tested methods that you so vehmently defend in order to for our [I]team

Using a friendly to test journey men like Trundle is a waste as we only have a few friendlies a year. Who would get dropped from the squad to accomodate Trundle anyway.

Charlton used friendlys to pretty good effect.

The 90 (?) win over England built confidence and I think both Quinn & Irwin made compelling cases for a call up to the first team.

Also in 92 Cunningham, McGoldrick, McLoughlin and David Kelly were given a run in a B international against Denmark (B or U21). A year later McGoldrick played in the world cup qualifier against Denmark and later also very well in the away game against NI.

Perhaps most importantly though, it provided a look at fringe players in a comfortable (nothing to lose) yet reasonably challenging environment. For instance a few lower league and league of Ireland players were given a shout like Owen Coyle, Russell and Fenlon. The conclusion for many may have been that they were not going to cut it, nonetheless a reasonable way to work with them for a few days & draw an objective conclusion.

Sound management, and an eye to the future and late developers can make a B international very useful.

For instance lots of talk about Ronnie O'Brien & others on these forums - be great to see him/them in the flesh against chosen opposition.

hows about an annual b international v an eircom league selection?

great chance for fringe/uncapped players while giving the el players a chance to prove the likes of livehead over.

also would attract a decent quality fan and allow me to see the grown up boys in green without wanting to rip ole ole slime's heads off.

if it happens 10% of the gate goes to me

Been tried. Rubbish game, rubbish crowd. no one cared about it and it showed.

Oh and whether he's Irish or not Trundle is good enough for our squad (his grandad is from Inchicore BTW)

Have to agree with you Dodge. The last B game was against an EL selection in 2000. The game was played on a wet and windy night in Bray. All eyes were on Paul Butler, who got a run around from Trevor Molloy. Think the final result was 4-3 to the B team, but I'm open to correction. Dave Barry managed the EL selection and picked the Cork goalkeeper and three of the Cork back four. I think Colin Hawkins was the one non-Cork player he chose! As Dodge said, there was a poor crowd at the game.

Play it in Turners Cross with George O'Callagahan in midfield & guaranteed full house.

Did Charlton play Paul Butler against the Czech Republic only to sub him at halftime as Koller was killing him?

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Originally Posted by pete

Play it in Turners Cross with George O'Callagahan in midfield & guaranteed full house.

Did Charlton play Paul Butler against the Czech Republic only to sub him at halftime as Koller was killing him?

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It was McCarthy, Koller scored twice and Butler got subbed at half time for Phil Babb.
Butler was called into subsequent squads but never made another appearance in the green.

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Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

hows about an annual b international v an eircom league selection?

great chance for fringe/uncapped players while giving the el players a chance to prove the likes of livehead over.

also would attract a decent quality fan and allow me to see the grown up boys in green without wanting to rip ole ole slime's heads off.

if it happens 10% of the gate goes to me

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prove what? that very few of them are at the standard to play international football. sing n dance about the EL league all you like, there are some good players in it, but friendlies are not there to prove anything to the fans in terms of how good our home league is.

Not a bad idea about the game but i don't know if it would be possible with the timing of the leagues with the EL running through the summer etc.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

just like brian kerr did? and what would you suppose we do, leave some of the regulars out. Maybe leave stephen reid out so garvan can have a game. Or drop finnan cos kevin foley looks like he might be a decent right back. In fact while were at it, lets give jay tabb a run out, lets leave duff out.

To put it plainly, you can only include so many players in a squad for a 'friendly'. You only get a few dates given to you by fifa each year where you are allowed to play friendlies. i.e. the dates where clubs must release their players to the nations. So if we were to play a b international on the day after or the day before the senior squads game, then it we be a superb oppurtunity to get a look at some more players, mostly young, but a few older lads, in the green shirt of ireland, playing in the positions, formation and style of the national side and seeing if any of them appear up to it.

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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I did say that friendlies, if done properly, are a perfect way of integrating new players. Its plainly obvious that Kerr did not take advantage of friendlies, was far too cautious and the team suffered as a result.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

O yes. Brilliant comment. Indeed I and most other people do see the rewards that our current system has brought us. A failure to qualify for FIVE major competitions out of the last six, and have seen ourselves slip to fourth seeds. But ya know, you can't beat the old tried and tested methods that you so vehmently defend in order to for our [I]team

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Yes brilliant comment by yourself there. So non-qualification for major championships can be traced back to the fact that we don't play B matches??

Might be due to the fact that we haven't had good enough personnel whether it be coaches and/or players??

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Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

Yes brilliant comment by yourself there. So non-qualification for major championships can be traced back to the fact that we don't play B matches??

Might be due to the fact that we haven't had good enough personnel whether it be coaches and/or players??

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as is being discussed currently on another thread, many believe we did and do have the players.

You have missed my point, im not putting non-qual. down to the fact that we didnt play B games, simply im pointing out that there is nothing wrong with trying something a bit different, as the old methods havent got us too far.

A Republic of Ireland B team would be the perfect opportunity to try out the EL players who are being championed by many for the Senior team.
If they could survive rubbing shoulders with players from the much vaunted F.A. Premiership, Coca-Cola Championship and First and Second streams then it might be worthwhile. Oh and if FIFA and UEFA lose their court case with Charleroi expect to see an EL Selection representing the Republic in the Future.... as the FAI would not be able to afford to compensate the Premiership clubs concerned for the wages of the big name stars "borrowed" for International matches.