Mason Melia F St Pats b.2007

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Originally Posted by CSAD

What exactly are you expecting a 16 year old to show to make you think he could make it at an elite club, because what you appear to be looking from him you rarely see from any 16 year old in the world. It's far, far too early to making assessments on a player to be quite honest, the expectations you've set for a 16 year old to set in order to make it at an elite club just shows a real ignorance on how player development works which is why I've reacted the way I have rather than you "insulting my favourite puppy".

Because based on you're criteria the likes of Haaland, Nunez, Kane, Vlahovic, Sesko, Ferguson, Hojlund (These are just CF's that come to my mind, I could name far more I'm sure) wouldnt have shown enough to make it at an elite club and yet...most of them have and the ones that havent have shown potential to make it there since they are 16...

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Jeez you're fairly intent on keeping this argument going aren't ya! Ive expressed an opinion on a player playing on a team that has struggled past a team from Leichenstein in Europe, playing in a league where one of the best teams was beaten in europe by a Gibraltar team. The standard in the league of Ireland right now is incredibly poor, even if I still love watching it. From what Ive seen in those games Ive watched of Melia I just dont think hes very good. Hes not an exceptional finisher, not lightening fast and not very tricky. Hes a big lad and hes doing ok in a standard that isnt very good. When I have watched him for the Ireland underage teams, again I think hes done ok, but hes not a standout like Duff would have been back in the day for example.

Just because he is playing in a league with men isnt an indication that hes doing brilliant. If the men in that league are not very good and he also doesnt look very good, then I think its ok for me to look at him and say I have doubts. We've all watched younger players from different levels and sometimes you can pick out a player that you think will go a long way. When I see Melia, right now I dont see elite level talent..... and again for the slow kids down the back, its an opinion that Im happy to be wrong about, but its an opinion the same as yours and neither of us will know if we are right for a number of years.

He's a 16 year old playing professional football to a decent standard (lets say its already generally L1 or SPL equivalent given thats where most of our league players end up moving to) and he is scoring goals. If he was doing that in L1 or SPL at this age we'd be absolutely creaming ourselves and rightly so. There is no reason we shouldn't be extremely optimistic and excited by him!!

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Originally Posted by SkStu

He's a 16 year old playing professional football to a decent standard (lets say its already generally L1 or SPL equivalent given thats where most of our league players end up moving to) and he is scoring goals. If he was doing that in L1 or SPL at this age we'd be absolutely creaming ourselves and rightly so. There is no reason we shouldn't be extremely optimistic and excited by him!!

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Ah its not L1 or SPL equivalent Stu. Some of the best players in the league have gone over to L1 in recent years and really struggled. Some players will come out of the league and do well but the over all standard wouldbt even be L2 in England I think. I doubt Brunos Magpies would be beating a team in L2

Sure, it’s debatable. PineappleStu (I think it was) shared something in the last couple of years that compared the relative strength of teams to other leagues and iirc most teams were L1 territory.

Leaving that to one side though and back to Melia, he’s a 16 year old already scoring goals in a professional league and is being scouted by a system as competent as Brightons when it comes to unearthing young talent from weaker leagues. Right now, thats doing pretty excellently. That’s pretty elite for a 16 year old. He’s achieved a lot already and there’s a lot more to come according to the scouts.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Sure, it’s debatable. PineappleStu (I think it was) shared something in the last couple of years that compared the relative strength of teams to other leagues and iirc most teams were L1 territory.

Leaving that to one side though and back to Melia, he’s a 16 year old already scoring goals in a professional league and is being scouted by a system as competent as Brightons when it comes to unearthing young talent from weaker leagues. Right now, thats doing pretty excellently. That’s pretty elite for a 16 year old. He’s achieved a lot already and there’s a lot more to come according to the scouts.

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I hope you're right. I hope he's as good or better than Evan Ferguson, I just have doubts

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Sure, it’s debatable. PineappleStu (I think it was) shared something in the last couple of years that compared the relative strength of teams to other leagues and iirc most teams were L1 territory.

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I think it was JR89 shared it originally; I just referenced it a bit as I thought it was a good source. It said most LoI teams were League 2 or Scottish Championship level.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Jeez you're fairly intent on keeping this argument going aren't ya! Ive expressed an opinion on a player playing on a team that has struggled past a team from Leichenstein in Europe, playing in a league where one of the best teams was beaten in europe by a Gibraltar team. The standard in the league of Ireland right now is incredibly poor, even if I still love watching it. From what Ive seen in those games Ive watched of Melia I just dont think hes very good. Hes not an exceptional finisher, not lightening fast and not very tricky. He's a big lad and hes doing ok in a standard that isnt very good. When I have watched him for the Ireland underage teams, again I think hes done ok, but hes not a standout like Duff would have been back in the day for example.

Just because he is playing in a league with men isnt an indication that hes doing brilliant. If the men in that league are not very good and he also doesnt look very good, then I think its ok for me to look at him and say I have doubts. We've all watched younger players from different levels and sometimes you can pick out a player that you think will go a long way. When I see Melia, right now I dont see elite level talent..... and again for the slow kids down the back, its an opinion that Im happy to be wrong about, but its an opinion the same as yours and neither of us will know if we are right for a number of years.

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And as I've highlighted, if that's the criteria you've set then the likes of Haaland & Ferguson didn't have the ability to become elite either...well it would be hard for Melia to replicate Duff considering Duff didn't play for Ireland competitively at underage level until u20 level when he made his debut as an 18 year old...2 years older than Melia is now. Also no disrespect but using 1 off European results as an indication of where the league is at his a very poor example, just shows it's more important that you're right then being accurate which just damages you're arguments credibility. Yes the league isnt the highest standard, we know this, but it's still impressive for a 16 year old to be playing regularly at that level in such a demanding position. Expecting him to be pulling trees out at that age at senior level is totally unrealistic, like some others have said there is far too much development ahead for someone like Melia to come to any conclusion that he could be elite.

You're going to learn more playing against men some of whom have played well over 100 professional appearances than against literal kids, some of which may have 0 professional appearances. We've seen time and time again that one big issue for our young players have been the lack of professional experience, some of which must wait until their 20s to get it and then its a shock to the system and they fall by the way side.

Looking at the way you're posting it almost feels like you've made a predetermined opinion of Melia's potential based on where he's playing and I get the feeling that's what's dragging him down in you're estimations as based on what we've seen from him idk how you could look at that and be so pessimistic of his chances of succeeding in the game.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Looking at the way you're posting it almost feels like you've made a predetermined opinion of Melia's potential based on where he's playing and I get the feeling that's what's dragging him down in you're estimations as based on what we've seen from him idk how you could look at that and be so pessimistic of his chances of succeeding in the game.

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Duff may not have been the best example, I always thought he was 17 at that U20 WC, but however the part I just quoted isnt true. If it was I wouldnt have LOITV subscription and watch games every week. I was raised on LOI, brought to games when Galway United were still Galway Rovers. The LOI and Ireland games are literally the only things I miss living so far from home, so no I havent made a predetermined opinion on him because of where he plays.

I watched Melia in the U17 Euros last year and didnt think he was a standout. He was only 15 so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I watched the same u17 in the elite qualifiers this year when they were massively out matched by Portugal, Germany and Croatia and again he wasnt a standout there. I've watched him play numerous times play for Pats and again hes done ok, not special or spectacular. I have never said he wont go on to be a professional footballer, but I have said that if hes ever as good as Kevin Doyle or Adam Idah that would be a massive success. I have also said that I hope Im wrong and he goes on to be our best ever player.

I've had plenty of opinions on this site over the years, some Ive been right about and plenty Ive been wrong about. Thats ok, they are opinions. You have your own opinions, some Ive agreed with and some I havent and thats the point of this place. Getting yourself so worked up about a player that neither of us will know for a few years how he turns out probably isnt great for ya. The gas thing is that Im usually the one being accused of being too overly optimistic about things on here so its funny to be on the other side of it for a change :D

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think it was JR89 shared it originally; I just referenced it a bit as I thought it was a good source. It said most LoI teams were League 2 or Scottish Championship level.

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Would like to see that again purely out of interest. I thought there were a few teams (premier division) that showed up in L1/SPL? [I was wrong by saying "most" in my original post for sure]

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Would like to see that again purely out of interest. I thought there were a few teams (premier division) that showed up in L1/SPL? [I was wrong by saying "most" in my original post for sure]

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It may have been true a few years ago, I dont know when he did the comparison, but right now the standard across the league is a poor as its been in a while. Interesting that its coinciding with the league being more popular now than its ever been in my lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Duff may not have been the best example, I always thought he was 17 at that U20 WC, but however the part I just quoted isnt true. If it was I wouldnt have LOITV subscription and watch games every week. I was raised on LOI, brought to games when Galway United were still Galway Rovers. The LOI and Ireland games are literally the only things I miss living so far from home, so no I havent made a predetermined opinion on him because of where he plays.

I watched Melia in the U17 Euros last year and didnt think he was a standout. He was only 15 so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I watched the same u17 in the elite qualifiers this year when they were massively out matched by Portugal, Germany and Croatia and again he wasnt a standout there. I've watched him play numerous times play for Pats and again hes done ok, not special or spectacular. I have never said he wont go on to be a professional footballer, but I have said that if hes ever as good as Kevin Doyle or Adam Idah that would be a massive success. I have also said that I hope Im wrong and he goes on to be our best ever player.

I've had plenty of opinions on this site over the years, some Ive been right about and plenty Ive been wrong about. Thats ok, they are opinions. You have your own opinions, some Ive agreed with and some I havent and thats the point of this place. Getting yourself so worked up about a player that neither of us will know for a few years how he turns out probably isnt great for ya. The gas thing is that Im usually the one being accused of being too overly optimistic about things on here so its funny to be on the other side of it for a change :D

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Nope, made his Ireland u20 debut in June 1997 against Ghana which would make him 18 years old. You may love the LOI but reading through you're comments on this topic the conclusion seems to be that Melia will have to be in England before he could be considered to be in the conversation for being an elite prospect, judging at least by what you've said about Ferguson.

Well he scored 6 goals in 10 games as a 15 year old at u17 level, idk what more you were expecting...doing okay as a 16 year old at senior level is very good at this stage, expecting him to be "spectacular" at his age against adults would be setting the bar insanely high. At his age what's important is not looking out of you're depth which he clearly doesnt. You might have a point if he was 18-19 at this point but as a 16 year old he's doing very well.

Also to settle any worries you have, no I'm not worked so dont worry ;)

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Would like to see that again purely out of interest. I thought there were a few teams (premier division) that showed up in L1/SPL? [I was wrong by saying "most" in my original post for sure]

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Yep - it's here. https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/s...47884751867905

It actually ranks the LoI as between English fourth tier and Scottish second. But yeah, it's not as simple as that as there's a wide spread of teams. Rovers/Dundalk it has as League One level - but arguably neither are what they were a couple of years ago as RLP suggests

I don't know where people are getting the notion that the domestic league is similar to League 1 or the SPL, surely just watching a few games this season would be enough to see that it isn't. And the trail of hyped up former league players coming back recently with their tails planted firmly between their legs tells it's own story. These were the lads that were considered too good for domestic football, and then subsequently not good enough for Scottish or English football.

The top few teams in Ireland would stay up in League 2 I'd say. The rest wouldn't. As for Melia, I'm closer to RLP's position at the moment. I'm not seeing anything generational there. That's not to say that he's a bad player or anything, he obviously isn't. But I haven't seen anything so far to suggest that he's going to be any better that the strikers we already have. And realistically if he stays in Ireland until 18 he's going to have to spend a year or two playing catch up in England even if he does have the talent, as we're seeing now with Curtis.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

I don't know where people are getting the notion that the domestic league is similar to League 1 or the SPL, surely just watching a few games this season would be enough to see that it isn't. And the trail of hyped up former league players coming back recently with their tails planted firmly between their legs tells it's own story. These were the lads that were considered too good for domestic football, and then subsequently not good enough for Scottish or English football.

The top few teams in Ireland would stay up in League 2 I'd say. The rest wouldn't. As for Melia, I'm closer to RLP's position at the moment. I'm not seeing anything generational there. That's not to say that he's a bad player or anything, he obviously isn't. But I haven't seen anything so far to suggest that he's going to be any better that the strikers we already have. And realistically if he stays in Ireland until 18 he's going to have to spend a year or two playing catch up in England even if he does have the talent, as we're seeing now with Curtis.

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All you've done is shown a incredibly poor understanding on how players develop. I mean if we look at Hojlund, Ferguson, Sesko (the 3 young CF's everyone seems to talk about) and see where they were at 16-17 years old.

Hojlund - 4 starts in 5 u19 Danish league football, 0 goals.
Sesko - 1 goal and 1 start in 15 games in the Austrian 2nd division.
Ferguson - Played 11 games at PL2 level, started 7 and scored 3 goals.

I dont know criteria you are using to determine if someone is generational or not but based on whatever that criteria is would you seriously consider any of the above at generational based on their stats at a similar age.

Overall you just like RLP seem to setting Melia a much higher bar than the 3 I've mentioned.

Like others, it's just an opinion. He's played more games than any of those examples for one thing, and the goals aren't coming with any regularity. I'm not saying that he can't go on and have a good career, of course that's a possibility, but there's nothing I'm seeing at the moment that suggests he's showing any more about himself than many others who have come before him.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

All you've done is shown a incredibly poor understanding on how players develop. I mean if we look at Hojlund, Ferguson, Sesko (the 3 young CF's everyone seems to talk about) and see where they were at 16-17 years old.

Hojlund - 4 starts in 5 u19 Danish league football, 0 goals.
Sesko - 1 goal and 1 start in 15 games in the Austrian 2nd division.
Ferguson - Played 11 games at PL2 level, started 7 and scored 3 goals.

I dont know criteria you are using to determine if someone is generational or not but based on whatever that criteria is would you seriously consider any of the above at generational based on their stats at a similar age.

Overall you just like RLP seem to setting Melia a much higher bar than the 3 I've mentioned.

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All you're doing is showing an arrogance to think you know better than everyone else and no one else is allowed to have an opinion that's different to yours. Even the very best in football get opinions on young players wrong, Mourinho didn't think Salah or DeBryune were good enough for Chelsea for example, and he had the benefit of watching them every day.

Neither myself or Eirambler are saying he's crap, but I do like the way Eirambler put it, I don't see generational talent. We might be right, I think we'd both hope we are wrong but your opinion is no more valid than others on this. As of right now we have a kid playing with men who is doing ok. When I was 15 I remember playing a couple of games with my Dad's team and I was better than a lot of the men on that team, it meant nothing cos the level was crap and I wasn't very good at better levels in my own age group. Melia is doing fine in a poor standard, hopefully he rises above it and goes onto better things.

Recently Shamrock Rovers have had Ferizaj and Razi in their team at very young ages, I remember Ferizaj playing well in European games in particular. Both right now are in underage teams in Italy and we hope they kick on. Just because they did ok in a LOI team when young means nothing. I do think Melia looks better than they did, albeit in different position, but it's still no guarantee he will be good when the step up comes, and right now he only looks good, not special

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

Like others, it's just an opinion. He's played more games than any of those examples for one thing, and the goals aren't coming with any regularity. I'm not saying that he can't go on and have a good career, of course that's a possibility, but there's nothing I'm seeing at the moment that suggests he's showing any more about himself than many others who have come before him.

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So essentially, you are handicapping Melia because he choose to challenge himself against men every week as opposed to playing against kids...also worth pointing out the options I mentioned didn't score goals with any regularity either at this age.

And as I pointed out, based on the stats I mentioned you could have made the exact same argument for Hojlund, Ferguson and Sesko...

And you still didn't answer the question, what exactly would you be expecting from Melia at this age that would make him an elite prospect?

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

All you're doing is showing an arrogance to think you know better than everyone else and no one else is allowed to have an opinion that's different to yours. Even the very best in football get opinions on young players wrong, Mourinho didn't think Salah or DeBryune were good enough for Chelsea for example, and he had the benefit of watching them every day.

Neither myself or Eirambler are saying he's crap, but I do like the way Eirambler put it, I don't see generational talent. We might be right, I think we'd both hope we are wrong but your opinion is no more valid than others on this. As of right now we have a kid playing with men who is doing ok. When I was 15 I remember playing a couple of games with my Dad's team and I was better than a lot of the men on that team, it meant nothing cos the level was crap and I wasn't very good at better levels in my own age group. Melia is doing fine in a poor standard, hopefully he rises above it and goes onto better things.

Recently Shamrock Rovers have had Ferizaj and Razi in their team at very young ages, I remember Ferizaj playing well in European games in particular. Both right now are in underage teams in Italy and we hope they kick on. Just because they did ok in a LOI team when young means nothing. I do think Melia looks better than they did, albeit in different position, but it's still no guarantee he will be good when the step up comes, and right now he only looks good, not special

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Nope, I think you are just deciding to ignore facts & logic as they don't support you're argument and now you're starting to get frustrated at this fact.

And like I've said, I've literally pointed out the 3 young ST's that people seem to talk about online and pointed out how in all 3 cases none would have shown anything that would suggest they are generational talents. Using the standard as an excuse is just you clutching at straws at this point, it just shows its more important that you are right rather than being objective on the fact. The fact is those players weren't playing regularly at LOI level, they played 9 games and 3 games respectfully.

No player at 16 is going to look special playing senior football if the criteria you are setting is for them to dominate....that simply is never going to happen.

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect from a special player at 16 playing at senior that would fit the criteria of a generational talent.

Robbie Keane had just turned 17 when he scored twice on his debut for Wolves, not much different to Melia who will be 17 in September. What do I expect from a young player to think he's special? I'm not sure but the great ones usually stand out and right now I'm not sure Melia does.

One thing you have to know when debating with CSAD is that he's always right. It makes things a lot easier to go with that starting point.

I thought 16-year-old Lamine Yamal looked special playing senior football at the Euros in the summer btw. Spain have had a number of players like that lately - Ansu Fati, Gavi, Pedri. Wayne Rooney was 16 when scoring from 30 yards to end Arsenal's long unbeaten run. 16-year-old Cesc Fabregas was a regular for Arsenal not long after. Jude Bellingham was a regular for Birmingham at 16.

Melia's doing fine but he has 5 goals in 42 games in a poor league. It's not exactly earth-shattering. But best of luck to him obviously; one to keep an eye on.